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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
 Posted - 04/21/2004 : 19:37:52
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You know, I don't recall ever having a teacher who threatened kids who didn't accept evolution. Jack Chick must have gone to a pretty weird school.
I love the way he presents evolution as being the exact opposite of belief in Jesus. "If YOU believe in Evolution instead of Jesus, you'll end up in hell." Um, why can't someone "believe in" both?
I've reached 1000 posts / So I'm too cool to be in a cult. |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 23:56:20
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I watched a video by that Reverend Hovind (who was responsible for that comic.) It was complete bullshit; utter lunacy. He apparently used to be an evolutionary scientist who realized the error of his ways and started teaching creationism. He claims to teach it like a science, but that's impossible because so much of creationism is spent trying to convince others how retarted evolution is. They don't study the "whys and hows" of how God created the earth (in six days); they spend most of their money and other resources in trying to disprove things that they don't believe in but have no concrete evidence against. (Like the bones of Australopithescenes, Neanderthals, or dinosaurs.) Where do they think all this evidence comes from????!!! There are bones; concrete proof of their existence! And yet "Creationist Scientists" go on trying to submit to us that the universe is only 6000 years old, and God created it all in a literal six days of consecutive 24 hour periods! There is not even an attempt at explaining (in any rational regard) how carbon dating and other tried and true methods of temporal measurement state that some of these hominid bones are 5,000,000+ years old. There is no account of the countless thousands of years that passed of Cro-Magnon activity (physically modern human beings). What a crock of utter and complete shit.
Take me, break me, tell me a good one and maybe I'll cry
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Edited by - glacial906 on 04/22/2004 00:28:02 |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 12:40:30
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| I saw Passion a week ago and i'm not really too knowlegable about the bible so i though one of you could maybe help me out. What was that baby thing that satan was holding. I've spoken to people who i worked with who have actually read the bilbe but they have no idea. Did Mel Gibson make it up because i don't know what i would do if Mel let me down. I'm losing sleep over it and i really need an answer. |
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 13:01:40
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quote:
Originally posted by gracie
I saw Passion a week ago and i'm not really too knowlegable about the bible so i though one of you could maybe help me out. What was that baby thing that satan was holding. I've spoken to people who i worked with who have actually read the bilbe but they have no idea. Did Mel Gibson make it up because i don't know what i would do if Mel let me down. I'm losing sleep over it and i really need an answer.
Haven't seen the movie...but what context was this Satan and the baby scene in?
I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 15:08:34
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quote:
He claims to teach it like a science, but that's impossible because so much of creationism is spent trying to convince others how retarted evolution is. They don't study the "whys and hows" of how God created the earth (in six days); they spend most of their money and other resources in trying to disprove things that they don't believe in but have no concrete evidence against. (Like the bones of Australopithescenes, Neanderthals, or dinosaurs.)
This is a major fallacy in the arguments of many creationists. Obviously, none of them have been able to disprove evolutionary theory. But even if they COULD, how would that prove that God created everything in six days? You can't prove a theory simply by disproving another one. I don't think it's possible to "prove" creationism anyway. It's not a scientific theory, and is based on faith, not evidence. "Creation science" is an oxymoron.
quote:
Where do they think all this evidence comes from????!!!
I seem to recall hearing of people who think God created the Earth to LOOK older than it was, or that Satan made dinosaur bones and the like to deceive people. To be fair, I'm not sure how much of this was actual creationist rhetoric and how much was made up by people parodying creationism. But the idea that the world is only 6000 years old pretty much necessitates that there's some trickery going on, and hey, that's certainly possible. Most of what we know is based on memory ("All I am are my thoughts"). But, if you're going to go down that road, couldn't you just as easily say that the world was created yesterday? The 6000-year figure is based on some old Hebrew creation myths, and I certainly have no authority to say they're wrong, but quite a few people who believe it seem to be eager to say everyone ELSE is wrong.
I've reached 1000 posts / So I'm too cool to be in a cult. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 19:16:21
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quote:
Originally posted by gracie
I saw Passion a week ago and i'm not really too knowlegable about the bible so i though one of you could maybe help me out. What was that baby thing that satan was holding. I've spoken to people who i worked with who have actually read the bilbe but they have no idea. Did Mel Gibson make it up because i don't know what i would do if Mel let me down. I'm losing sleep over it and i really need an answer.
I have no idea what that baby was. I thought maybe it was supposed to represent the Anti-Christ but I'm not so sure. That was a guess.
I figure it might just be symbollism of some sort. But I'm not sure what it's supposed to represent.
Join the Cult of ... to be continued |
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klikger
= Cult of Ray =
693 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 01:45:34
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| Me neither, I think it was there to look shocking. |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 02:18:35
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Kent Hovind's name crops up regularly on the Talk Origin website. They discuss him here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/
I gather he is somewhat barmy.
 "I've rejoined the Cult of Ming / Star of favourite childhood movie of 1980" |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 02:32:25
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Read this article this week regarding a particular 'Bible' college in the US which has strong links with the Bush administration.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=513495
I'm sure the values they are pursuing are well meant and commendable but I can't help but think that the world does not need movers and shakers emaninating from such a cossetted and blinkered environment. My university years were all about opening my eyes to the real world, healthy interaction with people from all walks of life and freedom to make my own mistakes and put them right via my own endeavours.
Monitored internet surfing
Restricted TV channels
Curfews
Neat haircuts
'Modest' dressing
Holding hands of the opposite sex only permitted whilst walking!
No alcohol unless in the presence of parents
These sound like the sort of restrictions you would normally come across in places like Albania, Saudi Arabia, North Korea.
"I've rejoined the Cult of Ming / Star of favourite childhood movie of 1980" |
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 07:19:36
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
quote:
He claims to teach it like a science, but that's impossible because so much of creationism is spent trying to convince others how retarted evolution is. They don't study the "whys and hows" of how God created the earth (in six days); they spend most of their money and other resources in trying to disprove things that they don't believe in but have no concrete evidence against. (Like the bones of Australopithescenes, Neanderthals, or dinosaurs.)
This is a major fallacy in the arguments of many creationists. Obviously, none of them have been able to disprove evolutionary theory. But even if they COULD, how would that prove that God created everything in six days? You can't prove a theory simply by disproving another one. I don't think it's possible to "prove" creationism anyway. It's not a scientific theory, and is based on faith, not evidence. "Creation science" is an oxymoron.
quote:
Where do they think all this evidence comes from????!!!
I seem to recall hearing of people who think God created the Earth to LOOK older than it was, or that Satan made dinosaur bones and the like to deceive people. To be fair, I'm not sure how much of this was actual creationist rhetoric and how much was made up by people parodying creationism. But the idea that the world is only 6000 years old pretty much necessitates that there's some trickery going on, and hey, that's certainly possible. Most of what we know is based on memory ("All I am are my thoughts"). But, if you're going to go down that road, couldn't you just as easily say that the world was created yesterday? The 6000-year figure is based on some old Hebrew creation myths, and I certainly have no authority to say they're wrong, but quite a few people who believe it seem to be eager to say everyone ELSE is wrong.
I've reached 1000 posts / So I'm too cool to be in a cult.
What it comes down to is this: If you really have faith in the Bible, you believe what it says. If you believe in God, you have to believe that he can do anything. If you don't, of course everything in the Bible is going to seem like nonsense.
As a sidepoint...the 6 "creative days" are not perceived as literal 24-hour days...just time periods. In the Genesis account, I believe the sun and moon were not even created in the first day. Also, the Bible indicates that to God a day is as a thousand years. So that would leave open an infinite amount of time for God to prepare the Earth. So, if you're a Christian, that would leave open the possibility of being able to believe the Earth could be billions of years old, and that dinosaurs did play a role in preparing the earth, as we do reap benefits from the dinosaurs even in our time today.
There needs to be some balanced viewpoint in all of this, as there are ridiculous claims both by people who claim to be either atheistic or Christian.
I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
Edited by - The Calistanian on 04/23/2004 07:23:56 |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 08:57:02
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The Talk Origin website has this spectrum to explain the various belief positions:
CREATION
Flat Earthers
Geocentrists
Young Earth Creationists
(Omphalos)
Old Earth Creationists
(Gap Creationism)
(Day-Age Creationism)
(Progressive Creationism)
(Intelligent Design Creationism)
Evolutionary Creationists
Theistic Evolutionists
Methodological Materialistic Evolutionists
Philosophical Materialistic Evolutionists
EVOLUTION
There are therefore plenty of different beliefs. Saying that I think this still means that a good percentage of Christians fall into the 'Young Earth Creationist' camp and therefore a literal belief in the 6 day creation (24 hours x 6) followed by a period of approx 6,000 years up to the present day. I like to think I'm open minded but the massive weight of scientific evidence built up over the last 200 years or so surely means that this belief in YEC is very very dubious.
p.s. I'm at the extreme end of the scale btw.
p.p.s and that's not the Flat Earth end!!
More can read here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wic.html
"I've rejoined the Cult of Ming / Star of favourite childhood movie of 1980" |
Edited by - bedrock_barney on 04/23/2004 08:57:56 |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 10:44:58
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I'm not an atheist but Dr. Hovind sounds like a loon no matter how you look at it. I really don't see the point in his life's work, because he has no evidence to back up his claims that there is a God; the people whom he tries to reach are evolutionists, who by nature are going to need to "see" something with their very eyes before they believe it. (i.e. "proof.") That is the essence of faith: you do it blindly. You just put yourself out there and do it, without confirmation. That's all well and good, if you can do that. I have no problem whatsoever if someone "feels" the power of the Holy Spirit and converts to Christianity. But, to actively ridicule evolutionary theory to non-Christians and then have no empirical evidence or validation from a higher source is patently absurd. It's pretty much just saying, "THERE IS A GOD! THERE IS A GOD! DAMMIT, YOU WILL BELIEVE ME! THERE IS A GOD!" He does offer some explanations, such as dinosaur bones being the result of man's coexistance with dinosaurs 6000 years ago, calling them "the dragons mentioned in historical accounts" or something of the like, but his extrapolations are tenuously shaky, and don't gain any clout with me (or apparently others as well) just because he says so.
Dr. Hovind himself has offered $200,000.00 for unrefutable proof that evolution exists, but that's more a matter of his appealing to the uneducated with a symbolic act of being utterly infallible. Does anyone actually think that someone will ever win that money? Of course not. But, to the idiots of the world that act will say to them, "Hey! This Hovind guy is putting up alot of money! Lots of money=power. Power=correctness." You see it all the time with our government appealing to the morons in this country, who believe they can do no wrong.
Moreover, Dr. Hovind attempts to villianize evolutionary scientists as a group with no disparate viewpoints, and even lumps together cosmology (the big bang theory) with biology, geology (evolution.) It is widely quoted "there is no absolute knowlege in science, only greater understanding." I'm sorry if Dr. Hovind, in some experience in his life, came into contact with a teacher who totally refuted creationism but I don't think that he should shape his life work into the villianization and ridicule of all evolutionary scientists. He just doesn't have his facts straight, and he seems unwilling or unable to grasp some of the variable things that Christians and non-Christians have to say about the matter. Like, for example, he seems to think in the mode of "you're either with us or you're against us," meaning that if you believe in evolution you can't possibly be a Christian, you're being deluded, and you're going to hell. (As that cute little cartoon subtly illustrated.)
Take me, break me, tell me a good one and maybe I'll cry
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Edited by - glacial906 on 04/23/2004 10:52:02 |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 16:08:16
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I love the Chick Tract about Freemasons, where it says that God hates obelisks. I never knew the Lord was such an architectural critic...
As for the six days, wouldn't it be a little difficult for those to be six of our days when the Sun wasn't even around until the sixth? Unless the length of our day is based on the length of God's workday.
I've reached 1000 posts / So I'm too cool to be in a cult. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 16:30:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
quote:
Originally posted by PsychicTwin
Religious fundamentalists are the scourge of our enlightenment as a human race. We take one step forward, two steps back...all because these insect-brained zealots think they have the answers for everything, and whoever doesn't have the same answer is "damned." Feel free to blame 99% of the world's filthy shit (both today and throughout history) on organized religion. There is no talking sense to these people!
------------------------
The blue pill opens your eyes
Is there a better way?
A new religion prescribed to those without the faith
http://www.psychictwin.com
I agree with this, that today's organized religion is at the root of most problems today, supporting wars, etc. I think that governments will try to get rid of organized religion in the near future.
I'm a fsh with no i's.
I don't think so. They'd be foolish to try. If they force it underground they will make it, and the people who practice it, more dangerous and volatile.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
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klikger
= Cult of Ray =
693 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 23:23:41
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| I think there's more chance of one government-sponsored world religion than abolishment of all religion. |
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 07:53:13
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I don't think there are that many people who are so devoted to religion that they will do anything for it. If, let's say, the United Nations were to step in to do something about religion, and enforced it, I think the majority of people would be like: "Okay, whatever, I guess I don't have to go to church anymore." Of course there will be a lot of die-hards who will fight to the end about it, but those type are a small minority, no matter what religion they're in. There are so many atheists and agnostics these days, it's not even funny.
I don't know...you never know what's going to happen, there's so many problems caused by religion these days.
I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 09:25:54
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"Have you ever noticed that creationists look really unevolved?"
-Bill Hicks
Owen |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 10:34:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
I don't think there are that many people who are so devoted to religion that they will do anything for it. If, let's say, the United Nations were to step in to do something about religion, and enforced it, I think the majority of people would be like: "Okay, whatever, I guess I don't have to go to church anymore." Of course there will be a lot of die-hards who will fight to the end about it, but those type are a small minority, no matter what religion they're in. There are so many atheists and agnostics these days, it's not even funny.
I don't know...you never know what's going to happen, there's so many problems caused by religion these days.
I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb.
Yeah but that minority would be very very dangerous. More terrorism, just what we need.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 10:44:17
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You think people that want to go to church constitute terrorists?
 "I joined the Cult Of Joey and Iggy/Cos they can hypnotise chickens" |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 10:45:52
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quote:
The Calistanian Posted - 04/26/2004 : 07:53:13
there's so many problems caused by religion these days.
Religion's always been a problem. Once you're able to put a name on what you believe, you've officially thrown walls up around your mind.
Owen |
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 11:14:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
quote:
The Calistanian Posted - 04/26/2004 : 07:53:13
there's so many problems caused by religion these days.
Religion's always been a problem. Once you're able to put a name on what you believe, you've officially thrown walls up around your mind.
Owen
That's why you have to find one that doesn't cause problems, because a true religion doesn't cause problems, right? Then at least you've narrowed it down, because most of them cause problems, and there can only be one true religion. It all branched out from one somewhere. That's if someone believes in religion and is looking for one.
I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 11:23:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
You think people that want to go to church constitute terrorists?
"I joined the Cult Of Joey and Iggy/Cos they can hypnotise chickens"
No!!!
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 11:45:34
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Religion by definition causes problems because it presents a static worldview and something for people to war over. You don't ever have to plant your flag anywhere. Way I feel about it is just some cutoutable middleman between us and the vast source of energy that exists within all of us.
-Owen |
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 11:49:35
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However, the Bible does say to "learn war no more" and "love your neighbor as yourself". Now, a true religion would actually follow that, rather than throw any support to wars, like many do. So, a religion that does follow that line of counsel would not be problematic, but a pillar to society.
I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 11:56:46
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| Its not the religion, its people. |
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 12:04:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
Its not the religion, its people.
That is very true. But what are most of the people, that are blindly following, going to do when they see their leader (i.e., the Pope) supporting a war, or a nation in the war? They're going to support it too. In that sense, you can generalize a religion. A true religion's leaders would not set that example. Of course there would be individuals within that religion that would purposely violate Bible principles, but leaders set the tone.
I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 12:04:52
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When you find it, do let me know.
-Owen |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 12:07:49
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Isn't the true leader supposed to be God???
People are like cattle sometimes. moo!
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Edited by - Carolynanna on 04/26/2004 12:10:20 |
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 12:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
Isn't the true leader supposed to be God???
People are like cattle sometimes. moo!
Good point! So true.
I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 12:17:16
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Perhaps we're all God. Or energy, electricity, whatever you feel like calling it.
P.S. Would you think the idea ridiculous that we've developed bovine characteristics from aeons of beefeating, like you are what you eat and all that?
-Owen |
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 12:28:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
When you find it, do let me know.
-Owen
I think I have. Here are some notable qualities:
--There are no human "leaders" as Carolynanna brings up.
--Complete political and nationalistic neutrality
--Ritualistic traditions that are not in the Bible are not practiced
--I've been to several locations, and the exact same material is studied at every location for any given week, worldwide.
--I've walked in the door a complete stranger at every one of these locations, and was warmly greeted by almost the entire group.
--No collection plates
--Bible reading and research is encouraged, to make sure you believe what is being taught
--Many other highlights too numerous to list
It sounds like a good start to me.
I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 12:30:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
Isn't the true leader supposed to be God???
People are like cattle sometimes. moo!
You mean sheep. Baa!
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 12:40:07
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Just because you're from the UK doesn't mean you can push your preoccupation with sheep on me! ;)
and Owen, bovine characteristics? |
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Don't you love Christian "pop-culture" websites?
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye"