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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
667 Posts |
 Posted - 12/02/2013 : 07:12:22
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Floop,
In answer to your question regarding the contracts for big concert events and tours:
Yes, it it not uncommon at all for promoters to specify that the lineup they are "buying" is the lineup that appears on stage for those particular gigs.
This is not always the case, but usually, when dealing with iconic acts whose every member is known and has a draw (as opposed to someone like, say, Rod Stewart or Van Morrison whose backing bands change regularly), such requirements are spelled out in detail.
For a group to commit to a specific lineup at a festival or tour and then show up with a different lineup COULD be grounds for breach of contract, cancellation or some sort of substantial penalty of fees -- depending on how the contract was worded, or how upset the promoter was.
However, there are standard clauses which often allow such substitutions in the event of "unforeseen illness or an Act of God," meaning that if one of the LEGAL ACTUAL bandmembers who was committed to said festival got appendicitis a couple of days beforehand, or their house blew up from a gas leak, etc..., the group could substitute a fill-in without penalty.
I know of one major alternative rock band in particular who hired a friend of mine back in the early '90s to play lead guitar on an arena and large theater tour of South America and Asia. Up till that point, he had solely played with bands whose biggest gigs were headlining medium-sized clubs in the USA or opening for bigger bands in small theaters.
However, he was a masterful guitarist who played a helluva lot like Johnny Marr from the Smiths.
Turns out Marr had just quit the major alternative band in question, but this had not been announced to the public. As Marr's appearance was included in all the contracts for this massive, lucrative tour, it would likely have been cancelled if word had gotten out he was not on board.
So, they sought out my friend through personal recommendations in the rock world, and offered him the job - on two contractual conditions:
1. That he not tell anyone in the press (or otherwise) that he was doing this (he did tell a few folks like me who kept it to ourselves for years).
2. That he get his hair cut more like Johnny Marr's.
In exchange for this, they paid for him to buy WHATEVER GEAR HE WANTED / NEEDED to replicate Marr's road rig (which was incredibly expensive and esoteric), and gave him a salary which was much higher than a standard unknown guitarist would have ever gotten. As I recall, it was that all his expenses were paid, plus massive per diems, and he got paid $5,000 a week.
At the shows he was never directly introduced as Johnny Marr, and he kept away from the press and backstage meet and greets (Marr was at the time pretty press shy, so this did not seem odd). There were probably no large video screens featuring closeups of the performers.
The shows were of course advertised as featuring Johnny Marr, and everyone who went to the gigs understandably thought it was him onstage. Marr himself was aware of the subterfuge, but went along with it and kept a low profile during the tour, so as not to cost his former bandmates a bunch of money. They may have even given him a cut to stay silent.
My friend got to see far corners of the world, looking out at thousands of screaming fans, made some great contacts in the world of big-time alt.rock, and went home with a shitload of brand-new gear.
Now, a few years ago as I recall, one of Aerosmith's members was in rehab, and he HAD to get his shit together, because a handful of festival dates had been booked something like a year in advance, and unless ALL the members of the band were there onstage, they would have been in contractual breach, canceled, and would have had to RETURN THE 50% DEPOSITS ON THOSE SHOWS, which they had all long ago already spent -- including him.
So the bandmates pressured him to get his shit together and he got out just in time to make the gigs.
Cheap Trick's founding drummer Bun E. Carlos is currently suing them for a half a million dollars, claiming that his other bandmates have reneged on an arrangement they made with him a few years ago that keeps him on as an OFFICIAL, LEGAL MEMBER OF THE BAND, although he no longer tours or records with them.
The lead guitarist's son is now their road (and soon to be their recording) drummer, but at the time of this unexpected transition, the group made a big deal out of announcing that Carlos was NOT fired, and that in fact, he was STILL the official drummer, and that Rick's son was just "filling in for him" for an unspecified amount of time because he was suffering from health issues which prevented him from playing the drums.
Now, how you can be the official drummer in a band you do not rehearse, play live or record albums with is beyond me...
This was clearly done for legal reasons, as Cheap Trick stays booked up about two years in advance, and obviously, his "health issues" have not prevented Carlos in the meantime from both recording and playing gigs with other bands.
The truth is the rest of the guys and he have not gotten along for years, due in part to his decades of daily reliance on super-strong weed. He was lax and unmotivated and only wanted to play the same tired 30-song setlist of their greatest hits, which bugged the fuck out of the other guys who knew they had scores of other awesome songs in their repertoire that the fans wanted to hear and that they themselves wanted to revisit.
Within a few weeks of the new, younger drummer joining, Cheap Trick started putting on amazing, revitalized shows, and dropping tons of unexpected and obscure songs from their back catalog into their sets -- songs which had either never been played live before or which they had not even attempted for decades.
The fans miss Bun E. Carlos incredibly, and a lot of them grouse that it's simply "not Cheap trick" without him there on stage with them. But the majority do admit that the current version of Cheap Trick looks like they are more connected to their muse, are enjoying themselves more, and are generally kicking ass, compared to the last few years with Carlos behind the kit.
Sound familiar?
Unfortunately, Carlos now contends that they also agreed to keep him in the loop on any and all "band decisions," but that they have recently started doing things as a group without consulting him, and so he's suing.
They're counter-suing him as well for even more money for airing all this in public and for being a general thorn in their creative sides.
It's a bad scene, and sad to watch a great band go through.
Hope this answers your question.
The "official lineup thing" may or may not play into the current Pixies situation, but I believe the fact that they have repeatedly stressed that they will always consider Kim Deal a member of the band, and that any bass players they are using are merely "guests" speaks volumes.
They seem to have no interest in actually "replacing" her, as they view her as irreplaceable.
Much like REM did after drummer Bill Berry left for health reasons. He convinced them to continue on without him, because he did not want his leaving to be the thing which broke up the band (they had previously agreed that if any one member of the band ever left, they would stop the group).
The agreed to his wishes, and hired a succession of "guest drummers" for years, who toured and recorded with them on salary, but never appeared in interviews or "official" band photos.
Oh, and one more thing.
Titty sprinkles.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
Edited by - peter radiator on 12/02/2013 09:22:02 |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1875 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2013 : 07:33:16
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Thanks for your input. That's a quite interesting view. And this could explain the silence and lack of explanation from both KS and the rest of the band.
(switching a member of a band between two legs of a world tour looks rushed/unprepared, though. Unless another one was already prepared to come in at that point.) |
Edited by - picpic on 12/02/2013 07:34:21 |
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The New Bolero
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2013 : 08:10:17
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| Thanks Radiator, that was really interesting. I'd known about the Bun E Carlos drama with Cheap Trick but never really delved into the details. Great post. |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2013 : 08:33:01
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| Solid post. Also similar to the Cars using synth bass on their one off tour a few years ago, as Orr was irreplaceable. |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7446 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2013 : 09:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
Titty sprinkles.
I had to google this
Denis
Obsidiana Bijoux |
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The New Bolero
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2013 : 09:02:12
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| Yeah The Cars also used Todd Rundgren as a replacement for Ric Ocasek a few years back. They called themselves The New Cars. It was bad. |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1038 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2013 : 11:12:41
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That was a very interesting read Peter, thanks for sharing. Now I'm sure I can trust everyone on here to keep quiet, even fissle. I've got 2 wigs (black and blonde) and if I hang back in the shadows the fans shouldn't notice a thing. Kim could've grown a goatee after the Breeders tour, I mean, it's possible, right?
Per diems here I come! |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
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hoverin
- FB Fan -
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2013 : 16:17:29
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Wow, now this is a shocker.
I have to say nothing would shock me more than to see Kim Deal return. I would be willing to bet anything that that's not the case.
Kim has never looked happier than this year with the LSXX tour. They continued to extend the tour throughout the year. There's a lot of social media with Kelley and Josephine posting pics of the band-- eating together, goofing off, trips to the beach, trips to each other's homes for football games-- it seems like there's a very solid, very loving camaraderie happening with them right now. I would be quite surprised if the LS lineup doesn't continue on and do some material, they just seem way too happy and satisfied at how LSXX has gone. |
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sdon
= Cult of Ray =
France
786 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2013 : 22:20:26
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Why so much hate towards VC? It seems like everyone would consider it the biggest scandal if she was ever to be on stage with the Pixies. Is it because Grand Duchy (somehow) sucks? Is it because of the Pitchfork thing? Or because of what she revealed on her facebook regarding KD being "sick"?
I for one am not so dismissive. I think she really helped FB getting back into that Pixies emotional compositional state. I appreciated her voice on Bluefinger (She Took All The Money...), bass playing on Svnfngrs, and her part on Fort Wayne always reminds me of River Euphrates. I think she'd be a very able Kim S. replacement, even if it was only for the NA tour.
Sure there's the kids and stuff... But why not?
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"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)" |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7446 Posts |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 05:02:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sdon
Why so much hate towards VC?
Many longtime fans would frown on the perceived nepotism. |
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sdon
= Cult of Ray =
France
786 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 05:09:28
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At least, that would ensure not living in the past
Afaik, KD left, she wasn't sacked
People think any female bass player from an average jazz school could fillin, I wonder why VC wouldn't be tons better. She wouldn't oppose new material.
But the nostalgic me would prefer KD to come back, by miles, if she shares their 'mojo' again
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"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)" |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 05:23:02
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| If KD isn't coming back, you may as well find someone who is technically amazing at bass. The live shows would benefit from it. |
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The Holiday Son
= Quote Accumulator =
France
2023 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 05:34:46
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Yep !
Ding would be perfect. Since it's so unique, why try to emulate Kim's voice ?
I say lose the female backing vocals, I love them but if it's time to try something new, go for it all the way !! |
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fumanbru
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1462 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 05:49:43
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i'd be happy with any bass player- male or female. i'm looking forward to new material. and i wouldn't be surprised if the ep idea is put to the side and the next thing that comes out is a full album or double album!! the one pixies constant in the last six months has been surprises.
 "I joined the Cult of Frank/ cause I'm a real go-getter!"...long live snitz!! |
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1594 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 06:32:07
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I envision a chorus.
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 06:54:07
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Maybe they could get Les Claypool
Dial 1-888-RIB-CAGE for your free Bag Boy instruction manual. |
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simibaby
= Cult of Ray =
405 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 07:18:11
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| Jack Bruce, best living bassist |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1875 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 07:29:25
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No need to have a great bass player... Pixies bass lines are ultra-simple and their simplicity greatly contributes to define the Pixies sound everyone likes.
They need a sexy bass chick that can do backing vocals and sing harmonies. Nothing more.  |
Edited by - picpic on 12/03/2013 07:31:00 |
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sdon
= Cult of Ray =
France
786 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 07:52:37
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My guess for NA tour decreasing probability:
- Ding
- Dubs
- Schmid
- KD
- VC
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"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)" |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 08:08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
Maybe they could get Les Claypool
Haha! Although given that Flea has played with them it wouldn't be that weird... no, no, it would be that weird! |
Edited by - Carl on 12/03/2013 08:08:56 |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7446 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 08:40:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sdon
My guess for NA tour decreasing probability:
- Ding
- Dubs
- Schmid
- KD
- VC
Kim Gordon should be somewhere on your list. I'd love the idea.
Denis
Obsidiana Bijoux |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 10:04:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
Maybe they could get Les Claypool
Haha! Although given that Flea has played with them it wouldn't be that weird... no, no, it would be that weird!
Just imagine some Les backing vocals. Go ahead... :)
Dial 1-888-RIB-CAGE for your free Bag Boy instruction manual. |
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stoffaboy
- FB Fan -
32 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 10:50:47
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It would be funny as fuck if Kelly Deal stepped in !
She could do it! And she has the voice ! |
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Fissile
= Cult of Ray =
518 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 11:03:46
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I don't see how a dude would work with many of the old tunes....unless they plan on giving up performing those old songs. So many of those songs deal with male/female conflict/compliment.
They don't need any gee-whiz bass prodigy either. Just some comely lass that can sing sweetly and play bass in time.
Paz or Melissa perhaps?
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Fissile
= Cult of Ray =
518 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 11:05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by stoffaboy
It would be funny as fuck if Kelly Deal stepped in !
She could do it! And she has the voice !
Kelley hates Thompson even more than Kim hates Thompson.
ETA: What would really be funny is if they recruited Josephine Wiggs to play bass. |
Edited by - Fissile on 12/03/2013 11:11:53 |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 11:34:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Fissile
Kelley hates Thompson even more than Kim hates Thompson.
You should start a gossip column. |
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Fissile
= Cult of Ray =
518 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 12:09:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl
quote:
Originally posted by Fissile
Kelley hates Thompson even more than Kim hates Thompson.
You should start a gossip column.
Go read some of the things she's said about him in interviews. Nasty.
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sdon
= Cult of Ray =
France
786 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 12:32:25
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Oh boy, now it occurred to me (as he drove away) :
since the're friends now... the dream bass player IS Lou Barlow
--
"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)" |
Edited by - sdon on 12/03/2013 12:33:09 |
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Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 14:44:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Fissile
quote:
Originally posted by stoffaboy
It would be funny as fuck if Kelly Deal stepped in !
She could do it! And she has the voice !
ETA: What would really be funny is if they recruited Josephine Wiggs to play bass.
Estimated Time of Arrival?
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they were the heroes of old, men of renown. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 14:53:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Fissile
I don't see how a dude would work with many of the old tunes....unless they plan on giving up performing those old songs. So many of those songs deal with male/female conflict/compliment.
They don't need any gee-whiz bass prodigy either. Just some comely lass that can sing sweetly and play bass in time.
Paz or Melissa perhaps?
I think fissile may be onto something for once
 green star member since 2006. smb? |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 15:02:22
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peter, thanks for the insightful insider explanation. very interesting and pretty crazy story about Marr
makes you wonder if you ever saw an imposter and didn't know it. like, maybe it's been Tiger Woods all this time on drums
green star member since 2006. smb? |
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dontspookthehorse
- FB Fan -
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 15:28:43
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Tina Weymouth!
-dontspookthehorse |
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Fissile
= Cult of Ray =
518 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 15:46:42
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quote:
Originally posted by dontspookthehorse
Tina Weymouth!
-dontspookthehorse
Isn't she in a nursing home now?
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Kim S. was fired from Pixies
