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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
 Posted - 01/19/2004 : 16:21:03
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Phew. I was just about to nominate Leonard Graves Philips.
Good job I didn't.
 "Join the Cult of the Theremin / It's Velouriatastic!!" |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2004 : 17:08:59
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| That's an interesting view, Cheeseman; I personally value originality, but I agree with you that it shouldn't be an automatic disqualification. It's pretty hard to judge how original something really is anyway, and I certainly don't know where to draw the line. |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2004 : 17:43:28
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Brian Wilson
Lennon/McCartney
Syd Barrett
Charles Thompson (obviously one is obligated to add him, but he writes intelligent fucking lyrics that move me)
Kurt Cobain
 "I joined the Cult of Clops / If I were you, I'd sleep with one eye open." |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 03:32:37
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Syd Barrett: "I've got a bike, you can ride it if you like."
Nuff said.
I disagree with Kurt Cobain as well, on the grounds of the songwriter/performer distinction already mentioned. The songs are good but not amazing, it was the performance that made it. Whereas God Only Knows sounds good sung by a tramp.
 "I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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andyn
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
169 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 04:14:36
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Van Morrison and Stevie Wonder also deserve a mention.
Much as I love Morrissey, he mainly writes lyrics,, it's usually his guitarist that puts together the melodies. |
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Scarla O
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
947 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 05:36:34
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This songwriter/performer distinction is phony. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 05:49:16
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You say that, but how about Burt Bacharach? Obviously up there (I'd forgotten him and Hal David), but a great performer? Not really.
I just don't think Cobain really had as much songwriting talent as some of those mentioned. Its not saying at all that the songs weren't good or that Nirvana weren't hugely important, because they were, but really they were very basic (not neccessarily a bad thing) and no always superb.
Even more controversially I'd say that for the most part, in his Pixies days, Black Francis was as much a performer as a songwriter. Would tracks like Hey or Vamos have been as succesful performed in a style other than the Pixies?
When you get onto the solo stuff, its more song based (i.e. there's less of the 'wackiness' of the Pixies). However, I'm not going to nominate Frank Black cos I don't think he's reached his potential as a songwriter yet. On each album, the quality of songwriting is improving, but I think he's got better songs in him yet. Which is quite exciting really.
"I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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Scarla O
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
947 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 06:41:43
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I don't think you have to be a performer to be a great songwriter but i also do not believe that they're mutually exclusive. Think of the albums that Bowie wrote that MOST people agree are classics (even though they might not be their cup of tea): The Man Who Sold The World, Hunky dory, Ziggy Stardust, Aladdin Sane, Diamond Dogs, Young Americans, Station To Station, Low, Heroes, Scary Monsters
That's loads and there are plenty more albums that could be included but on which opinion is more divided. For me Bowie is a leading contender in the greatest songwriter stakes.
I think FB should be included but this would include The Pixies since he wrote 99% of the songs.
Luke Haines should be there in my opinion (even though he doesn't have the mass popularity of the other folk we've mentioned but i'm not convinced that that is reason enough to disqualify him).
Tom Waits, Nick Cave and Bob Dylan are top-runners for me too.
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Edited by - Scarla O on 01/20/2004 06:42:14 |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 08:03:37
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quote:
Originally posted by GoddessTheory
Just like You said it would Be is so so so good.
Mandinka.
She has so many good songs. Some of my favorites -
Red Football
In this Heart
Daddy I'm Fine
No Man's Woman
Three Babies
I could go on and on - and all of these songs could be in the "Songs that make you cry" thread as well.
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"Music does not drag me down. Music lifts me up." - Frank Black |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2004 : 08:06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by andyn
Van Morrison and Stevie Wonder also deserve a mention.
Much as I love Morrissey, he mainly writes lyrics,, it's usually his guitarist that puts together the melodies.
Lyrics are what I base everything on. If someone sings a kick ass lyric over some crappy guitar chord I could care less. I loooove music, but the lyrics are where it's at for me.
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"Music does not drag me down. Music lifts me up." - Frank Black |
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Useyourname
- FB Fan -
185 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 00:42:27
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Harry Nilsson
jimmy |
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 10:20:49
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| Elliott Smith has to be up there. I can't listen to his songs without weeping, it just gets under your skin. |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 14:29:54
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Are you saying Syd Barrett isn't worthy?
"I joined the Cult of Clops / If I were you, I'd sleep with one eye open." |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 16:22:42
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Yes. I thought I made that clear.
"I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 17:09:49
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| And the gloves are off... |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2004 : 18:17:03
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He has a style...I can't explain it, I don't know...it's "simplistic beauty." His lyrics are simple, but brilliant. Listen to his two solo albums, his lines are so simple and clear and whimsical but shit, they're great. He was an excellent songwriter. "Well oh baby my hair's on end about you." To hell with you.
"I joined the Cult of Clops / If I were you, I'd sleep with one eye open." |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2004 : 02:50:37
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Going by past form, this is where I come out fighting, but
a) I can't be bothered
b) As with all things in music, this is opinion, so technically, we're both right. Everybody's happy, we all get along.
Perhaps someone should explain the thinking behind this to G Dubya.
"I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2004 : 18:39:46
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I have to back Barto on this one...I think "Bike" in particular is stellar work. Insane? yes. But still relevant. Because I have got a bike. But fuck you if you want to ride it. It's mine.
Other seconding-motions: Tom Waits (go listen to Small Change and try to argue), Nick Cave (for Big Jesus Trash Can alone, but Mercy Seat, etc as well), Roger Waters (may not be consistent, but came up with some seriously amazing stuff), Frank Black (well, yeah.)
Others in the pantheon:
Cab Calloway (Minnie the Moocher, et al)
Benny Goodman (yeah - him.)
Tom Lehrer (poisoning pigeons in the park!)
Jello Biafra (political punk at its best, Church of the Subgenuis minister)
Mark Mothersbaugh (Who else could write "Jocko Homo" and follow it up with nearly every cartoon theme on nickelodeon? Also a Church of the Subgenius minister.)
Django Reinhardt (amazing person as well as the music - http://www.hotclub.co.uk/html/djangorev.html)
cEvin Key/Ogre (Skinny Puppy is fucking incredible)
I know there are more, but these leap to mind today. At least with the active personality.
 I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank WallaWalla Washington! |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2004 : 05:35:39
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OK, but put it in perspective, do you really think the guy who writes songs for Skinny Puppy is the absolute greatest songwriter ever?
"I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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interloper
= Cult of Ray =
440 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2004 : 06:09:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
OK, but put it in perspective, do you really think the guy who writes songs for Skinny Puppy is the absolute greatest songwriter ever?
"I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!"
I agree that "guy from Kraftwerk" is the absolute greatest songwriter ever.
Hand held shower nozzles are the demon enemy of the patriarch and should be destroyed. |
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benji
> Teenager of the Year <
New Zealand
3430 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2004 : 06:25:14
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Is the criteria for great songwriters restricted to lyricists, or are people/bands who write instrumental music included?
just wondering about the semantics of great songwriters
cook me some fucking eggs! |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2004 : 06:48:37
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has anyone mentioned Scott Stapp or Fred Durst???
I dreamed I dream |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2004 : 09:10:22
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Cool, Fred Durst: "I just want to break stuff"
You will never hear a more mature or talented man writing songs.
"I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2004 : 09:20:09
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amen to that, Cheese!
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mikey wuz here |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2004 : 09:24:27
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Have you ever heard Richard Cheese covering Break Stuff with a nice little segue to Nookie. Sheer genius, puts the song in a whole new perspective...
"I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2004 : 09:30:53
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qui est Richard Cheese?
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mikey wuz here |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2004 : 09:43:00
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alas, the speakers on my computer aren't working right now. I will have to check it out at a later date
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mikey wuz here |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2004 : 11:07:41
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| Perhaps they're clogged up with dairy produce. |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2004 : 11:09:11
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I doubt it. They've been kaput for a few weeks, but I"m lazy.
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mikey wuz here |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2004 : 14:02:25
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| I really like Beck, actually; listen to "Bottle of Blues", "Cyanide Breath Mint", "Lazy Flies", "Feather in Your Cap", or "Rowboat", and it's amazing what songs have come out of this one man's mind. |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2004 : 15:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
OK, but put it in perspective, do you really think the guy who writes songs for Skinny Puppy is the absolute greatest songwriter ever?
Hard for me to pin down an absolute greatest - I think he was extremely innovative in his song structures (deconstructures? hey! I made a word!) and was very important to a legion of musicians who walked the path afterward, from a composition as well as sonic perspective. IMHO, some of the best songs have no words.
I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank WallaWalla Washington! |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2004 : 16:46:39
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Innovative does not a great songwriter make (see argument re Bob Dylan et al, above). However, only having a passing acquaintance with Skinny Puppy, I'll refrain from judgement. I'm just wondering if you could compare him with Bacharach or Lennon...
"I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2004 : 19:56:19
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No, but that's why he made my list. Most of the others follow a strict formula of pop music (verse/chorus/bridge/etc). Breaking those rules and turning new ground scores points in my book.
I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank WallaWalla Washington! |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2004 : 04:44:11
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You make a good point Mr Potato Head.
"I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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