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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2004 : 13:33:13
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Gonna stir things up here.
This one has been up for awhile here and people are freaking out.
I'm not sure what I think about this,
I'm curious what Dave thinks about these too,
but anyway here's the story;
Vancouver, British Columbia - A US animal rights group defended an advertising campaign on Wednesday that links the women victims in a Canadian serial murder case to the fate of butchered pigs.
Relatives of the Vancouver women, feared killed by accused murderer Robert Pickton, have denounced the campaign by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, which wants to convince people not to eat meat.
Health officials warned last month that processed pork products that Pickton gave or sold to friends from his ramshackle Port Coquitlam farm outside Vancouver may have been contaminated by human remains. Pickton was arrested in 2002 and is awaiting trial on multiple murder charges.
The billboards in Toronto and Edmonton, Alberta, show pictures of a woman and a pig with the slogan: "Neither of us is meat." The signs do not mention the Pickton case, but Peta acknowledged the link.
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Edited by - Carolynanna on 04/15/2004 13:56:34 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 13:36:35
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This one is my fave,
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 13:42:00
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| Aw damn you can't really see it but its the virgin mary holding a chicken, hehe. |
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 13:51:07
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People
Eating
Tasty
Animals
I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 16:21:30
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I don't eat pork but there is a GD food chain and NOTHING will ever convince me that it is wrong.
 "I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 16:35:02
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GD food chain? What's GD?
Carolyn - glad you asked. =)
I think it was rather bad taste for PETA to produce a similar ad when the Pickton case first came to light, but it's been a while now, and i think it's relatively decent to relate to this event. (As horrible as it was. Let's not forget that hundreds of millions of pigs have their own Pickton every day, if you really want to get to it. They have rich, emotional and social lives, and suffer horribly in the factory farms, where about 95% of pig flesh is raised.)
It's unfortunate that so many people choose to eat flesh, and inadvertantly support this horrible industry.
It's unfortunate that media outlets won't cover this simple fact, unless it's presented in such a controverial way. (And even then, they often barely cover *why* PETA is doing this, but why it's controversial. Goo media.)
The reality is that they lose either way (not getting media, or getting media and upsetting some people.) I can see why they choose the latter. This isn't a 'light' issue, like Republicans vs Democrats. It's the lives of tens of billions of individuals, essentially tortured and slaughtered every year.
100yrs ago, a similar ad depicting a black man and a white man, and the text 'neither is a slave' would have drawn TREMENDOUS ire and outrage. Does/did that make it wrong?
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 16:50:49
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I know all fruit and veg are living creatures that deserve our love and respect as much as say a walrus or a Persian cat, but I was breaking a banana into the blender the other day and it felt creepy.
--
"You one of those right-wing nut outfits?" inquired the diplomatic Metzger.
Fallopian twinkled. "They accuse us of being paranoids."
"They?" inquired Metzger, twinkling also.
"Us?" asked Oedipa.
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 16:52:45
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Hmm,an intersting subject.
I used to be vegetarian for a while, and I was very very 'in to the environmental thing'as some people put it. I know it means nothing to say ' i used to do...'. But i just wanted to make the point to show I do have an understanding of the subject at hand.
It does affect me, these sorts of things which arent in the media often enough. yeah, ok, I do eat meat now. I dont apologise for that, its just the fact that im such a fussy eater, id have nothing to actually eat if i didnt#!!!
I dont know, Jim and Simon keep messaging me on msn, and cant remember what i was going to put now, lost my point.
Ill get back to you onthis...
Boys go to Jupiter, Get more stupider,
Girls go to Mars, Become rock stars
Wanna fuck and fight in the basement? |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 17:17:39
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GD=God Damn.
Animals should not be abused and family farms should be supported but Newo (though he was being sarcastic) is right; plants are living and how do you determine which life is most valuable. Why do some vegetarians still eat fish? People have F'ed up ideas about the worth of life and what meat is.
"I'm a level five vegan. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow."
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 17:25:59
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I wasn't being sarcastic but rereading that I see I should have indicated it. Basically it seems hypocritical to me to say a pig is a sacred living thing but a tomato is a living thing which can be sacrificed to our dietary needs.
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"You one of those right-wing nut outfits?" inquired the diplomatic Metzger.
Fallopian twinkled. "They accuse us of being paranoids."
"They?" inquired Metzger, twinkling also.
"Us?" asked Oedipa.
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 19:13:24
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I think the main difference between a pig and a tomoato that makes it OK to eat a tomoato and not a pig is that pigs have a brain and central nervous system and therefore can feel pain as well as other emotions whereas plants do not and thus feel no pain when one eats them.
ˇViva los Católicos! |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 21:02:59
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Plants and trees and crap are what give us life in the first place. Without them we wouldn't have photosynthesis and we'd have no oxygen.
Trees rock.
 Join the Devil's Workshop / Looking for idle hands to work second shift |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 21:49:45
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quote:
Originally posted by ProverbialCereal
Plants and trees and crap are what give us life in the first place. Without them we wouldn't have photosynthesis and we'd have no oxygen.
Trees rock.
Join the Devil's Workshop / Looking for idle hands to work second shift
without onions and cilantro, there'd be nothing to put on carne asada tacos |
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DeBased
- FB Fan -
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 23:07:35
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Right on, Dave. I've been a vegetarian for 15 years. Some of PETA's tactics may shock some people, but vegetarians witness things they find brutal and offensive all day long. Mc Donalds signs - how many billion served, hooplah over genuine leather, chopped up animal carcasses of every sort at the grocery store, etc., etc. We are a minority, living in the largely carnivorous western world. PETA exists solely to do advocacy work, while people like me are busy quietly raising our families at the moment...but help animals and the environment through the diet we choose.
The argument by some people that they cannot tell the difference between a vegetable and an animal is a cop-out, though perhaps some people have not had much exposure to other types of animals and lack empathy. The choices you make when you buy things and eat things affect other people. If you buy products made by people who are nearly slaves, that hurts somebody. When you eat a meal that inflicts suffering, you are responsible. People can be callous about these things if they wish, and most of them are. I don't see much benefit to society in people being desensitized and uncaring about people, animals, or whatever may have less power than they have.
Why do some vegetarians still eat fish? I would not call someone who eats fish a vegetarian. Probably someone who does that is looking for a quick way of saying I dont eat red meat...
...I conclude my rant :) |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 00:05:25
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quote:
The argument by some people that they cannot tell the difference between a vegetable and an animal is a cop-out, though perhaps some people have not had much exposure to other types of animals and lack empathy.
But if they DID have exposure to other types of animals, wouldn't they see that a lot of those types eat other animals?
I've reached 1000 posts / So I'm too cool to be in a cult. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 00:55:05
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quote:
The argument by some people that they cannot tell the difference between a vegetable and an animal is a cop-out, though perhaps some people have not had much exposure to other types of animals and lack empathy.
Just seems to me awfully convenient to be able to draw lines between different types of beings. Life is life. And anyone who has difficulty feeling the lifeforce that flows through everything around us, tomatoes included, I would say could stand to be more empathetic. Man I'm a pompous fuck sometimes.
--
"You one of those right-wing nut outfits?" inquired the diplomatic Metzger.
Fallopian twinkled. "They accuse us of being paranoids."
"They?" inquired Metzger, twinkling also.
"Us?" asked Oedipa.
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Edited by - Newo on 04/16/2004 03:28:29 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6213 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 01:23:47
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I'm raised as a vegetarian, and I'm still one
but the topic is about the add and
I have to say
that I feel bad about it
don't know why but I just don't like the way
they use such a terrible event
just like this peta billboard:
http://www.peta.org/feat/HolocaustEurope/
I don't know why, but I just don't like it
 "I joined the Cult of Frank/Nobody wanted to join my Culf" |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 11:37:22
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People who eat fish are NOT vegetarian. Very simple.
As for the tomato thing.. A tomato is not alive/conscious in any way.
The tomato PLANT could be - but not the tomato.
There are people, fruitarians and Jains (a religion, which FB has a paticular interest in) who don't eat whole plants, but the 'fruits' that are produced and drop off, like apples, etc..
Even if you choose to subscribe to this, raising and eating a cow would result in infinitely more 'deaths', since the cow eats a ton of grass, and then you're consuming all that. So you're better off just eating plants.
This all really a convenient smokescreen, imo. If you could really rate the death of a pig and a potato the same, you would also have to rate the same for a human and potato, to be logically consistant.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 14:23:48
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I kind of think humans should have more respect more members of their OWN species than for others, though. Doesn't mean they shouldn't respect other species, just that it seems like your own should be the most important one.
I've reached 1000 posts / So I'm too cool to be in a cult. |
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ObfuscateByWill
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1887 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 18:32:07
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I've been vegetarian for 4 years.
I live within 20 minutes of PETA's Norfolk, VA headquarters.
Never have visited.
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Dog-fights are popular in parts of the area. Terrible, terrible thing.
I worked in a shelter for a while and cared for the rescued fighters. They were, of course, all euthanised. Most of the dogs died in my arms.
No PETA-types were ever present. No one to see those poor animals off.
Of course, they were always present to criticize. Always willing to walk a dog or pet a cat. Always willing to bring the PETA brochures with pictures of animals being abused. Always on a soapbox. Never feeding the animals. Never cleaning the animals. Never establishing a worthwhile relationship with the animals.
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I wanted to know what steps PETA was taking to help end the dog fighting.
They claimed that they had been working with city officials to combat the fights. I checked. They hadn't. They lied.
I burned out and left the job. Someone took my place. They burned out and left the job. Someone took their place and burned out.
Anyway, PETA is made up of middle and upper-class self-indulgent phonies.
*don't worry shut up sit down go with it and be happy |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 18:58:20
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| Just curious Dave... how would you morally consider the eating of an unfertilized bird egg? Seems to me that's very similar to an apple falling off a tree-- maybe even less of an ethical consideration because the apple might've become a tree, whereas the egg wasn't gonna become nothing. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 12:04:40
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Cripes Scott - what's your problem? I can't say what they have or haven't done about dog fights, nor the shelter, but that's not their main focus or 'type' of activity. (Which is promoting veganism. If more people were veggie, things like dog-fights would end quite quickly.)
I'm sure if you call PETA and ask what they've been up to, specifically, you'll get a straight answer. I wouldn't be surprised if the city officials 'bent' the truth to make them look bad.
I DO know several of the folks who work there in the RIR dept (rescue, investigation, research) and they work VERY HARD to end this kind of shit.
BLT - since people are keeping (read: exploiting) birds for this purpose, it isn't the same as an apple in the tree.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 12:33:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
This all really a convenient smokescreen, imo. If you could really rate the death of a pig and a potato the same, you would also have to rate the same for a human and potato, to be logically consistant.
Well my opinion is that there is a difference between human beings and animals. All these things these guys do, like comparing Auschwitz to animals in cages, would be right, if human beings and animals were the same thing. But they're not. Animals aren't conscious about what they are. They don't have any rational thought. I'm not criticizing vegans : animals do have a sensitivity, they can suffer and feel the pain, and we should really try and improve their condition. But comparing people to animals is denying at least 4 thousand years of philosophy.
That is why I'm horrified by this terrorist advertising campaign. To me, it's like terrorism : killing innocent people cannot be justified by any goal. And showing the picture of a dead girl (just imagine how her parents felt when they saw that) saying there is no difference between her and a pig CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED. Irresponsability and ignorance are not an excuse.
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 12:52:18
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| I don't think that pic of the girl is actually one of the victims from the Pickton case. And I don't think that Robert Pickton was really much of a pig farmer either. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6213 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 14:18:40
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quote:
Originally posted by BLT
Just curious Dave... how would you morally consider the eating of an unfertilized bird egg? Seems to me that's very similar to an apple falling off a tree-- maybe even less of an ethical consideration because the apple might've become a tree, whereas the egg wasn't gonna become nothing.
the best point I have seen on this thread!
I eat eggs, not fish though, although I can see the difference between eating a pig out of the bio industry and eating a fish who comes out of a big sea. Not saying all fish have a good live, but their lives are certainly better than most of the pigs.
"I joined the Cult of Frank/Nobody wanted to join my Culf" |
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vigorstrength
- FB Fan -
87 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 15:47:31
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Nature is violent.
Sit in a log cabin at night, and listen to an animal attack another animal. Bones crushing, voices screaming, bodies thrashing.
I'm glad to be part of it. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 21:27:10
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Adnan - two questions:
* some humans aren't conscious or rational, do they deserve to be treated differently then, if this is the basis of your argument?
* please explain further how animals and humans are different (and remember, humans ARE animals)
Carolyn - do you know this for sure? If so, it really does make this campaign much more acceptable, i was assuming the picture was... I don't know either way..
Jop - did you see my response to BLT?
VS - wait until you're on the receiving end of the bone crushing, and i bet you won't be so glad to be a part of it. It's easy to say while behind protective walls, not so easy when you're standing naked in a pit with hungry lions. "Nature is violent. I'm glad to be part of it."
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 21:41:29
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quote:
Originally posted by DeBased
...Some of PETA's tactics may shock some people, but vegetarians witness things they find brutal and offensive all day long. Mc Donalds signs - how many billion served...
I'm not even a vegetarian, yet the billions served thing sickens me.
Join the Devil's Workshop / Looking for idle hands to work second shift |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 21:56:01
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This isn't a personal attack to just anyone. This is a personal rant to those who subscribe to such unrealistic and ridiculous views such as those expressed in this thread. The "you" refers to all those who match this description. Anyone may feel free to answer the questions presented here.
You can't change the world. No matter how loud you scream, you're still in the minority. The world caters to the majority. By not shopping at WalMart, you're not doing anything but spending more money for the same product elsewhere. No matter where you spend your money, you're making someone else rich. What are you going to do, stop shopping?
By not eating meat, by supporting only organic products and perfumes that aren't tested on animals, you're not making the world any better of a place. If you don't buy it, someone else will. You're just part of the food chain; it's just as easy to skip over you and go to the next person. Nothing will change.
Sure, this seems like a fatalistic attitude. You can say that, or you can say I'm being realistic. They're not going to kill one less animal because you aren't eating them. They're not going to kill 50 less animals cause 100 of you are vegans. If you don't like the taste of meat, great, don't eat it.
It seems to me, and sure, I could be completely off, but it seems to me that those who support such radical ideas do it to boost their personal feelings. They do it to get a sort of "holier than thou" thing going, as in "hey, at least I don't support murder in the third world." Supporting these ideas generally seems to make the person very self-indulgent.
These animals are bred and slaughtered for a purpose: human consumption. It's like having a garden. As much as you'd like to think, they're not walking into our backyards and slaughtering our pets and eating them. Just like every other manufacturing process over time, things have become more streamlined. Hunting and gathering, farming, etc. It's down to a strict science: breed, slaughter, consume.
Your ideas are far fetched and unbased in reality. What do you think you're accomplishing, seriously, by taking the stance that you're taking? What's the ultimate goal? Do you actually think people will stop eating meat at some point? It's admireable to take up such a cause, but shit...it must seem so futile.
What makes a human different than an animal? Can an animal build houses? Sell products? Manage a business? Contribute to society AT ALL? Just because SOME HUMANS may be 'not conscious' nor 'rational' doesn't toss them into the animal category. To recap, animals are generally covered in fir or short hair, don't answer your questions, usually are on four legs, cannot operate vehicles, have no musical preferences, cannot write books, cannot participate in internet forums, do not have opinions which they can express, can't talk, don't have accents...So wait a minute, I guess if any human follows any of the previously mentioned traits, they're an animal? No. They're still human. When we start eating human beings as a standard way of life, then maybe, JUST MAYBE, you'll have a case. Until then, please pass the steak sauce.
Boycott cults |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 21:57:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
* please explain further how animals and humans are different (and remember, humans ARE animals)
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer!
Do you believe in evolution, Dave?
I'm curious, because if you believe humans evolved from animals, what makes it wrong if humans eat animals, since humans descended from them and used to be animals?
Animals certainly kill other animals, and if you think we are animals, what's wrong with killing other animals?
Just to further my point:
A bird eats a worm. The bird then evolves into a dog. The dog kills and eats a rat. The dog then evolves into an ape. The ape just eats a banana. The ape finally evolves into a human, so why can't the human eat any of the things it enjoyed as a bird, a dog, or an ape?
(I don't know the "real evolutionary phases." Sorry. Just illustrating my point)
Join the Devil's Workshop / Looking for idle hands to work second shift |
Edited by - ProverbialCereal on 04/17/2004 22:01:51 |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 22:00:52
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And I'm sorry if you don't believe in evolution, Dave. I don't mean to assume you believe in it. So that post is for any vegetarian evolutionist.
Join the Devil's Workshop / Looking for idle hands to work second shift |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 22:04:12
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I also want to point out, as I have before, that I love animals. I am an animal lover. I can't handle the suffering of animals. I cringe and get cold sweats when I see a dead animal near/in the road. I'm very empathetic towards animals, BUT, I'm realistic. For one, I'm able to seperate "domestic animals" from, err..."consumeable animals" for lack of better words. I understand that some animals are bred to be consumed; that's their purpose. I understand that animal on animal violence exists and is natural.
Boycott cults |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 22:48:06
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And your vote doesn't count either right El Barto? One person proooobably isn't changing the world but if enough people change then the world can change and a single person does contribute to that effort. I'm not arguing for or against anything here just saying that a single effort is significant. If no one stood up for what they believed this world would be a lot further along in it's path to self-destruction. And some people do adopt certain ways of life to feel better about themselves but I think it's too rash to say that it's so they can be "holier than thou." There's nothing wrong with wanting to feel good about your life.
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2004 : 22:48:57
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of course I still think veganism is unhealthy and bullshit;)
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 02:47:53
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quote:
Adnan - two questions:
* some humans aren't conscious or rational, do they deserve to be treated differently then, if this is the basis of your argument?
* please explain further how animals and humans are different (and remember, humans ARE animals)
Sorry Dave, I really didn't mean to be rude or anything, I'm really glad there are some people fighting for animal rights, though I don't agree at all on some ways of promoting their opinions. But here are my answers :
- The essential characteristic of a human being is the rational language or what the Greek philosophers used to call "logos". Animals, obviously, don't share that characteristic (Descartes said that if they had a language, they would talk to us). By rationality, I don't necessarily mean considering efficiently different alternatives in a situation, I mean thinking. You can't deny every human thinks. Thinking=language.
- Furthermore, this makes humans conscious about themselves. They do FEEL themselves, like animals (they are a part of the Nature) but they also THINK themselves, unlike animals, plants, plancton or stones.
- The next step is that their consciousness makes humans morally responsible, Kant would say that they are PERSONS. As you mentioned, some humans aren't conscious (I guess you were thinking about the consequences of their acts, which is a moral judgement). It's true, some humans are capable of highly immoral, irresponsible and cruel acts. But they are judged according to the moral criteria, not animals. Animals cannot be immoral or moral, because they are not concerned by moral judgement, because they aren't conscious. We can have a debate about the treatment immoral humas DESERVE but not about which treatment the animals DESERVE, because they cannot be GUILTY of anything. If a lion eats a man, it's not a crime.
Once again, I really think that there should be people fighting for animal rights, because they are living beings who can feel pain and suffer, and people who can be cruel to animals can be cruel to humans. But there is a huge difference between humans and animals.
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 02:57:05
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Btw, saying that humans and animals aren't different CONTRADICTS YOUR OWN IDEAS. Because animals aren't vegans, you see, animals don't give a fuck. And humans are, by nature, omnivorous, their teeth are built so that they can eat both plants and meat. Their eyes are on the front of their head, which is a characteristic of predators. So, if there is no difference between us and animals, then we should eat animals. It's because they are moral beings (unlike animals) that humans feel concerned about animals suffering etc.
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PETA Billboards
