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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2014 : 06:07:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque
In that link the ep vynils seem much better than the cds.
Maybe the didn't master the vinyl from the CDs. That's a practice going around these days. |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2014 : 08:08:38
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I'd say slightly better... but still much compressed...
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2014 : 11:49:30
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quote:
Originally posted by picpic
I'd say slightly better... but still much compressed...
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Such a damned shame when you consider how much effort goes into creating a music release only to have it fucked up in the last step. Also sadly ironic considering how the Pixies have been celebrated for being dynamic.
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Edited by - BLT on 03/07/2014 11:51:20 |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2014 : 15:13:01
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quote:
Originally posted by BLT
quote:
Originally posted by picpic
I'd say slightly better... but still much compressed...
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Such a damned shame when you consider how much effort goes into creating a music release only to have it fucked up in the last step. Also sadly ironic considering how the Pixies have been celebrated for being dynamic.
Yeah. I pointed out on a couple threads that they definitely were noticeably better, but still way overbaked. Nice to see that article confirm my ear.
As far as the last step piece, I have a possible theory on that too. Typically the mastering is where all the compression and limiting occurs - used to be to give it that polished, professional, balanced sound. Now well...
Here's my thought - everyone is so enamored with compression and limiting, that I think engineers are adding that shit during the actual production to individual tracks (i.e. boosting the snare bass track, guitar, track, vocal track, individual drum tracks, etc, whatever) and not leaving enough headroom for the actual mastering. The track is maxed before it even makes it to the mastering shop, and that's just the final nail at that point.
"A word to the wise is infuriating." |
Edited by - johnnyribcage on 03/07/2014 15:50:23 |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2014 : 15:31:28
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They call it a loudness war but it's really a war on music and music appreciation. I don't blame the Pixies, I'm betting they 1) either don't have a say or 2) don't really care. It's a shame, but barring some kind of grass roots uprising similar to the vinyl movement I think the good old days of being able to climb into a new record and wear it like a snuggie are essentially over (with a few exceptions).
"A word to the wise is infuriating." |
Edited by - johnnyribcage on 03/07/2014 15:31:53 |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2014 : 00:52:32
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Carefull picpic with that idea of the final mastering being the only one to blame.
In these days of digital recording, compressers and limiters can affect every step of the recording on every instrument, a compression-free mix may does not exist at all. If you are an old school (and patient) producer/mixer, you dont do that and just get to know perfectly your song and adjust the right volumes of each track at each moment, obtaining a natural sound with a lot of range, then limit and compress the general sound to have a decent volume (at the times of cassette recording, it provided you a natural compression at that step; then you could understand you you didnt do the volumes well when compression turned to saturation) and even do that with some indivual tracks that you think could sound better with a compressed-limted sound, not too much if you dont want too piss off the masterer (for example the bass, obtaining a nice bass carpet, never too loud, never too shy). Most producers prefer to compress everything since the very begining (recording the tracks) so they can show to the band "hey look, it already sounds like a record!", and they get used to that loud-loud-flat sound, just like modern audience. The perverse thing with that extreme FM sound is that IF YOU ALREADY KNEW THE SONG YOU WILL THINK IT SOUNDS BETTER LIKE THAT!!! If i play you a Beatles song with more compresser-limiter you will say "wow it realy rocks like a modern band" BECAUSE YOU ALREADY KNOW THE SONG. If you didnt know the song, you WONT GET 50% OF THE SONIC INFORMATION: that's what happened to us with the eps. That sound is made for one dimensional modern music, not for real music. As the Pixies where probably one of the last REAL bands, it's really a shame to see them falling into that trap. |
Edited by - Grotesque on 03/08/2014 05:27:30 |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2014 : 11:19:23
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You're probably right... unfortunately ! The damage was probably done as early as the very recording.
Still, i'd like to believe that overcompression is a post-production-only artefact - which gives us hope that one day we'll got to hear a proper version.
If you take the "famous" Metallica - Death Magnetic album example: the actual album sounded horribly compressed. Despite fan outrage and internet petitions, nobody cared. Even members of the band said in interviews that they didn't hear any problem on that terrible CD version... (sigh... but that's a classic behavior. Musicians usually don't care *at all* about sound quality - many examples out there!!-) Then eventually an uncompressed version was released (through some video game guitar hero bonus tracks or something like that), which sounded WAY better... which means that the damage was done at the very last step, just before the CD was actually printed (video game version was shipped before that).
So... let's hope that's the case with EP-1 / EP-2.
Still... I can't stop loving those albums. Even if my ears are bleeding...
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2014 : 08:38:33
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| These EPs are self-released, aren't they? So there is no record company to blame for the sound. If the recording engineers are doing it, then they are using the wrong engineers. Ditto for whoever is mastering it. There are many albums from the digital era ("DDD") that sound fantastic. There really is no excuse. |
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IBreed
= Cult of Ray =
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2014 : 11:59:58
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| it was done to be competitive on radio, but nowadays with indie bands, it's to sound "nice and loud" on laptop speakers. it sucks. unfortunately, most bands just don't give a shit. they don't fetishize good fidelity like listeners do. there are exceptions, but the majority just go with the flow. |
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Oui
- FB Fan -
52 Posts |
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Fissile
= Cult of Ray =
518 Posts |
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Oui
- FB Fan -
52 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2014 : 07:14:06
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| I see it. wow. huh? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
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IBreed
= Cult of Ray =
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2014 : 08:03:28
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it sounds like Kim went under the impression that the five songs she agreed to record were going to be the pixies new material, full stop. for someone so reluctant to ever record new tunes, that's a pretty good turn around. but the band had conspired to turn those sessions into a full record with the idea that once kim was in the thick of it, it would be easier to get her to acquiesce. gross misread in hindsight, obviously.
that seems to be my read, anyway. in the end it was just another pixies power struggle. the three guys felt 5 songs weren't enough and tried to be underhanded in getting their way, while Kim put her individual constraints over three other individuals. both don't seem particularly fair.
surely there was a compromise to be reached. i don't know about ring a bell, but the kim "sanctioned" songs would certainly have made a killer comeback EP.
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ChienAndalou22
- FB Fan -
58 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2014 : 08:22:08
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quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
it sounds like Kim went under the impression that the five songs she agreed to record were going to be the pixies new material, full stop. for someone so reluctant to ever record new tunes, that's a pretty good turn around. but the band had conspired to turn those sessions into a full record with the idea that once kim was in the thick of it, it would be easier to get her to acquiesce. gross misread in hindsight, obviously.
that seems to be my read, anyway. in the end it was just another pixies power struggle. the three guys felt 5 songs weren't enough and tried to be underhanded in getting their way, while Kim put her individual constraints over three other individuals. both don't seem particularly fair.
surely there was a compromise to be reached. i don't know about ring a bell, but the kim "sanctioned" songs would certainly have made a killer comeback EP.
It seems to me that it was more like she was tired of sort of writing new material off and finally humoured the idea but then didn't want to commit to the whole idea when it came to the key parts like vocals and the bulk of the songs. |
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Oui
- FB Fan -
52 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2014 : 08:27:42
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"kim "sanctioned" songs would certainly have made a killer comeback EP"
Certainly so. And interesting and fair read on the situation.
You can here on the live "What Goes Boom" video Pixies just released, with Paz's vocals up high in the mix how great it would of been hearing Charles and Kim sing together. Also would of been interesting to see what she would of done with Silver Snail. Which has taken a long time to grow on me.
Oh well. A good angle to tour with for the Pixie three. New music and the abrupt departure of Kim Deal. A publicists dream. |
Edited by - Oui on 03/12/2014 08:28:14 |
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IBreed
= Cult of Ray =
310 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2014 : 10:05:36
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it really is, right. unfortunate in the long run for the fans, but yeah, what a narrative.
i should also mention that i quite like Frank's interviews. whether real or forced, he's much more diplomatic on record than perhaps some other members...
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Oui
- FB Fan -
52 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2014 : 10:39:10
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"i quite like Frank's interviews"
I do as well. I enjoy the other two and am quite interested to hear their thoughts, but Dave seems to have talking points and Joey can be incomprehensible! ha.
In some ways I kind of miss the pre internet days when you had no idea who made the music, except for some wild singer named Black Francis. The golden years. |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
2463 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2014 : 05:13:06
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| Yes, that's a brilliant interview. |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2014 : 05:58:26
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Saw that. I don't really see what's interesting about his music player, since you can already listen to lossless content on almost any music player. And lossless music store exists too. So I don't really get it...
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rivum
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
265 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2014 : 08:09:24
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the difference is the source material. i understand that it's sourced from the original 192khz/24 bit masters and not compressed after that. most music is downsampled to 44.1khz/16bit for the purposes of cd compression, so there is a big inherent increase from the start.
whether or not that is something most people can perceive is yet to be seen.
that said, people who have heard pono claim is sounds like a full, rich sound like you'd get with vinyl. it reportedly just "feels better" to hear it this way, whatever that means. |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2014 : 08:39:01
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quote:
Originally posted by rivum
the difference is the source material. i understand that it's sourced from the original 192khz/24 bit masters and not compressed after that. most music is downsampled to 44.1khz/16bit for the purposes of cd compression, so there is a big inherent increase from the start.
A few services are already providing "studio master quality" (-allegedly-) direct-sourced lossless music files. (ex: in europe -don't know if it's available anywhere else): http://www.qobuz.com/.
Put those on any (good) music player, boom, same thing as Pono.
Still, I think this project is a good idea. The success of the kickstarter proves that many people care about sound quality and are ready to pay for it. Now its up to the music industry to follow...
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Edited by - picpic on 03/13/2014 08:40:44 |
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pixie punk
> Teenager of the Year <
2923 Posts |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2014 : 06:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by picpic
[quote]Originally posted by rivum
The success of the kickstarter proves that many people care about sound quality and are ready to pay for it. Now its up to the music industry to follow...
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"Service Unavailable"
This is really the takeaway for me.
"A word to the wise is infuriating." |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2014 : 05:03:30
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
Regarding our sidebar around the quality of sound these days, Neil Young had been pushing for a year or two for his new device focused on sound quality - looks like he's gaining traction and funding:
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-03/13/ponomusic-reaches-target-in-day
"A word to the wise is infuriating."
Having Neil Young speak about needing higher quality audio is kind of like Keith Richards speak about the horrors of smog. He can't hear anything at his age and rock history. It is a nice idea, but will most likely just be another gimmicky device nobody needs or could even discern the difference. Speakers matter, and not much else does.
If they want to increase audio quality, they should just make everything multitrack so that you don't need to over compress things. |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2014 : 17:18:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Champ
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
Regarding our sidebar around the quality of sound these days, Neil Young had been pushing for a year or two for his new device focused on sound quality - looks like he's gaining traction and funding:
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-03/13/ponomusic-reaches-target-in-day
"A word to the wise is infuriating."
Having Neil Young speak about needing higher quality audio is kind of like Keith Richards speak about the horrors of smog. He can't hear anything at his age and rock history. It is a nice idea, but will most likely just be another gimmicky device nobody needs or could even discern the difference. Speakers matter, and not much else does.
If they want to increase audio quality, they should just make everything multitrack so that you don't need to over compress things.
I get it, haha, but quite honestly Neil has it down from a fidelity pov. Listen to to Rust Never Sleeps and tell me that guy doesn't get it.
Speaking of speakers, we have Monitor Audio BX2 Bronze paired with a Marantz 2275 and a Technics 1200 MK2. So I have a bit of a frame of reference regarding fidelity.
"A word to the wise is infuriating." |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2014 : 05:29:55
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
quote:
Originally posted by The Champ
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
Regarding our sidebar around the quality of sound these days, Neil Young had been pushing for a year or two for his new device focused on sound quality - looks like he's gaining traction and funding:
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-03/13/ponomusic-reaches-target-in-day
"A word to the wise is infuriating."
Having Neil Young speak about needing higher quality audio is kind of like Keith Richards speak about the horrors of smog. He can't hear anything at his age and rock history. It is a nice idea, but will most likely just be another gimmicky device nobody needs or could even discern the difference. Speakers matter, and not much else does.
If they want to increase audio quality, they should just make everything multitrack so that you don't need to over compress things.
I get it, haha, but quite honestly Neil has it down from a fidelity pov. Listen to to Rust Never Sleeps and tell me that guy doesn't get it.
Speaking of speakers, we have Monitor Audio BX2 Bronze paired with a Marantz 2275 and a Technics 1200 MK2. So I have a bit of a frame of reference regarding fidelity.
"A word to the wise is infuriating."
The whole album or just the song? |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2014 : 05:36:59
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| Never mind. On first notice, I think you like how this sounds because there aren't many instruments or tracks. Everything is clear. However, I think the acoustic guitar sounds devoid of bass and thin. It is a nice recording, but nothing I would consider that unique. |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2014 : 05:42:11
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| I personally think this album is good because of it's well crafted songs, rather than how it sounds. |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2014 : 06:16:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Champ
I personally think this album is good because of it's well crafted songs, rather than how it sounds.
That discussion about Neil Young's ears is strange. But i think he has good ones. A bit like jay mascis or paul leary, he probably can tell intuitively what instrument should be louder. Plus, some of his most experimental work, like dead man soundtrack, was produced by himself and sounds just perfect, one of the most pleasurable experimental guitar work. |
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1594 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2014 : 11:35:07
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If there was a Frank Black or Pixies signature PONO player I would have to get it. I'm not sure they could sell 500, maybe 100?
Please make this happen. |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2014 : 04:10:00
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003614822/ponomusic-where-your-soul-rediscovers-music
Watch this for a good laugh. Notable moments - 6:30. I have seen similar reactions from people who wear the Qray bracelet. I am getting pretty sick of Neil Young's corporate greed.
Nevertheless, I am mildly intrigued to read a review from someone who isn't easily manipulated by the power of suggestion.
I can almost guarantee that any difference in sound was due to a glorified EQ, not worth 400 dollars. |
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Helmut
= Cult of Ray =
315 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2014 : 04:10:58
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| I read Neil Young's ears were pretty damaged after playing with loud PAs in the 90s, and given his age all the high frequencies in his ears would be gone. Deafness is a peril of rock n roll. |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2014 : 04:43:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Helmut
I read Neil Young's ears were pretty damaged after playing with loud PAs in the 90s, and given his age all the high frequencies in his ears would be gone. Deafness is a peril of rock n roll.
Deafness in all of us. Starts declining pretty rapidly around age 20, with no harmful exposure. It is heavy genetic, however. |
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Pixies Interviews 2014
