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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
2950 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  09:31:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Welcome, cptnpasty. Great username. So weird to see Bluefinger-themed names on here already, before it's even released.


Please pardon me, for these my wrongs.
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =

France
777 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  09:34:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cptnpasty

wondering if the target audience for bluefinger is a certain Ms Kim Deal.....



Hearing what Deal borrowed to the pixies style as the Breeders songwriter, I would guess that the Bluefinger songs are not what she dig the most in Frank's songrwriting. It's closer to Trompe Le Monde, an album she doesnt really care about. And of course, closer to Frank Black albums. Kim Deal is a great songwriter, but she has more to do with Daniel Johnston than Elvis Costello.
Frank had his Daniel Johnston side, but now he's definitly more the son of Elvis Costello (or his little brother?).
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
5175 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  10:18:05  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
wow, nice analysis

---------------------------
BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3114 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  13:07:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have we seen Brood's work back before Charles sung about him? The cover art for the Cannonball single. Is that Brood? Actually maybe not. It's just that I saw it on some Dutch site with a whole bunch of Brood's work.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo

Edited by - trobrianders on 04/23/2007 14:19:09
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =

France
777 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  13:23:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders

Have we all seen Brood's work way back before Charles sung about him. I'm talking cover art for the Cannonball single. Is that Brood? Anyone?

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo



Why would it be Brood
The cannonball cover may be Vaughn Oliver
And it looks like the cover of the pixies compilation, the second one
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TheUglyLover
- FB Fan -

25 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  14:10:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm loving this! Such a cool album. It's very Pixies. I say that as neither a good or a bad thing, but just as an opinion. I love Frank, The Catholics and The Pixies. Man, it makes me wanna rock.



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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
5175 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  15:19:51  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders

Have we seen Brood's work back before Charles sung about him? The cover art for the Cannonball single. Is that Brood? Actually maybe not. It's just that I saw it on some Dutch site with a whole bunch of Brood's work.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo



First question: yes, I did.
second question: don't think so, I have that single doesn't say anything about it.

---------------------------
BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  15:22:03  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque

quote:
Originally posted by cptnpasty

wondering if the target audience for bluefinger is a certain Ms Kim Deal.....



Hearing what Deal borrowed to the pixies style as the Breeders songwriter, I would guess that the Bluefinger songs are not what she dig the most in Frank's songrwriting. It's closer to Trompe Le Monde, an album she doesnt really care about. And of course, closer to Frank Black albums.


I agree with you on the Kim Deal analysis, however, and I'll probably be lynched here, I am totally incapable of getting into The Breeders. That's not my main point though.

In my opinion, Bluefinger is closer to anything Pixies than anything else he's done since, but I would call it more of a bastard nephew to Doolittle than Trompe Le Monde. Trompe was insanely thick and textured, to the point that on a good portion of the album, the appeal (for me anyway) lies in the dense, layered production rather than the songs themselves. Bluefinger is totally raw. To me, it kind of defies comparison though, since it's such a step, maybe not forward, maybe sideways, I don't know. It's new territory for Frank. If I had to call it though, I'd say it's a mix between Doolittle and the first Catholics, with a dash of FMRM as seasoning (Discothèque 36, Lolita)


I love this part... Yeah, we did it!

Edited by - johnnyribcage on 04/23/2007 15:23:16
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benji
> Teenager of the Year <

New Zealand
3336 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  15:39:17  Show Profile  Visit benji's Homepage  Reply with Quote
ever since nabbing the album, i've only listened to it on my rather good Marantz amp/cd player + B&W speaker combo, and the sound has been mindblowingly fantastic...
now for the first time i'm listening to the album on my $800 pioneer home theatre system in the kitchen and the difference in sound quality is astounding...it sounds so muffled on this crappy system....i've never noticed such a difference in listening pleasure on the 2 systems to such a degree ever before....

but my point is - this album deserves to be played on a high-quality stereo....it just blows me out of the water every time i hear it on my components.....
if you've ever needed justification for spending the money to upgrade to some high quality components, this album is all you need.
come over to my house and i'll prove it to you.....



all i can say, thank god for polio! brian
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =

France
777 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  15:46:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
In my opinion, Bluefinger is closer to anything Pixies than anything else he's done since, but I would call it more of a bastard nephew to Doolittle than Trompe Le Monde. Trompe was insanely thick and textured, to the point that on a good portion of the album, the appeal (for me anyway) lies in the dense, layered production rather than the songs themselves. Bluefinger is totally raw. To me, it kind of defies comparison though, since it's such a step, maybe not forward, maybe sideways, I don't know. It's new territory for Frank. If I had to call it though, I'd say it's a mix between Doolittle and the first Catholics, with a dash of FMRM as seasoning (Discothèque 36, Lolita)


I love this part... Yeah, we did it!



Right, the sound of Bluefinger is much rawer (the funny thing is that it wouldn't be that expansive today to make a Trompe Le Monde-like sound, with all the digital filters and stuff, so if the sound is raw it means that Frank and the producer really want it to be raw).
But there are some compositions tricks that draw lines with Trompe: the sharp riff of T.A. clearly reminds the sharp riff of U-mass. The "Jesus and Mary Chain" chords of Mouth into mine reminds Bird Dream of Olympus and Head-on. The Fall-like rap of Black Rubber reminds Subbaculta (the hell with the spelling of that song). And yeah, I fully agree with the dash of FMRM (and TOTY as well, as everybody already said).
But Doolittle, I cant see it anywhere. Constant Sorrow man, that was very Doolittle. Maybe I've listened too much to Doolittle, but to me it's a very special thing and nothing can really sound like that, exept perhaps hearing some mexican traditional music near a campfire in the middle of the desert with a lot of mescal...
Sorry to be long, I'm waiting for a movie.

Edited by - Grotesque on 04/23/2007 15:47:52
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3114 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  16:10:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Talking about Doolittle did anyone do what I did? Found it didn't play loud enough so fed it through Audacity with the levels up and damn if it didn't sound even better. Fresh like the first time I heard it or maybe the way it sounds when you've smoked a little. Gil Norton did an amazing job on it but I'm real happy I upped the levels. Try it for yourself. Anyone comes at me screaming sacriledge I'll clock you one.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =

France
777 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  16:15:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders

Talking about Doolittle did anyone do what I did? Found it didn't play loud enough so fed it through Audacity with the levels up and damn if it didn't sound even better. Fresh like the first time I heard it or maybe the way it sounds when you've smoked a little. Gil Norton did an amazing job on it but I'm real happy I upped the levels. Try it for yourself. Anyone comes at me screaming sacriledge I'll clock you one.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo



So you just cutted the waves and doing so, saturated it ? Audacity cant do much more so I guess that's what you did. You have a Doolittle sounding more garage, isnt it ?
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3114 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  16:20:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think I understand what you mean but it just sounds crisper, fresher, better defined. I suppose it's tru I must have lost something but I can't hear it.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo

Edited by - trobrianders on 04/23/2007 16:23:52
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  16:20:29  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque

Right, the sound of Bluefinger is much rawer (the funny thing is that it wouldn't be that expansive today to make a Trompe Le Monde-like sound, with all the digital filters and stuff, so if the sound is raw it means that Frank and the producer really want it to be raw).
But there are some compositions tricks that draw lines with Trompe: the sharp riff of T.A. clearly reminds the sharp riff of U-mass. The "Jesus and Mary Chain" chords of Mouth into mine reminds Bird Dream of Olympus and Head-on. The Fall-like rap of Black Rubber reminds Subbaculta (the hell with the spelling of that song). And yeah, I fully agree with the dash of FMRM (and TOTY as well, as everybody already said).
But Doolittle, I cant see it anywhere. Constant Sorrow man, that was very Doolittle. Maybe I've listened too much to Doolittle, but to me it's a very special thing and nothing can really sound like that, exept perhaps hearing some mexican traditional music near a campfire in the middle of the desert with a lot of mescal...
Sorry to be long, I'm waiting for a movie.



I see where you're coming from. Maybe I'm talking more about the way it makes me feel when I hear it, along with the seeming spontaneity of the music. The only thing I've heard that gives me the same chill as Doolittle is Bluefinger.

I love this part... Yeah, we did it!
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  16:23:45  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque

quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders

Talking about Doolittle did anyone do what I did? Found it didn't play loud enough so fed it through Audacity with the levels up and damn if it didn't sound even better. Fresh like the first time I heard it or maybe the way it sounds when you've smoked a little. Gil Norton did an amazing job on it but I'm real happy I upped the levels. Try it for yourself. Anyone comes at me screaming sacriledge I'll clock you one.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo



So you just cutted the waves and doing so, saturated it ? Audacity cant do much more so I guess that's what you did. You have a Doolittle sounding more garage, isnt it ?



If you really wanted to up the volume without destroying the integrity of the sound waves it'd probably be better to use a limiter with some light compression. Or just wait till the inevitable "remaster" that will probably come out if and when a new Pixies album is released. This is all a little off topic though, just thought I'd throw two cents in on that.

I love this part... Yeah, we did it!
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3114 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  16:31:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ta

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
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TheUglyLover
- FB Fan -

25 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  16:44:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage

quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque

quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders

Talking about Doolittle did anyone do what I did? Found it didn't play loud enough so fed it through Audacity with the levels up and damn if it didn't sound even better. Fresh like the first time I heard it or maybe the way it sounds when you've smoked a little. Gil Norton did an amazing job on it but I'm real happy I upped the levels. Try it for yourself. Anyone comes at me screaming sacriledge I'll clock you one.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo



So you just cutted the waves and doing so, saturated it ? Audacity cant do much more so I guess that's what you did. You have a Doolittle sounding more garage, isnt it ?



If you really wanted to up the volume without destroying the integrity of the sound waves it'd probably be better to use a limiter with some light compression. Or just wait till the inevitable "remaster" that will probably come out if and when a new Pixies album is released. This is all a little off topic though, just thought I'd throw two cents in on that.

I love this part... Yeah, we did it!



If you use a limiter and compressor won't you just level it all off? To me that would make it sound dead. It think it sounds great the way it is.

Edited by - TheUglyLover on 04/23/2007 16:47:01
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  16:57:57  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheUglyLover

If you use a limiter and compressor won't you just level it all off? To me that would make it sound dead. It think it sounds great the way it is.



This is getting out of hand, we should start a new thread for this topic. But while I've got you, the whole reason albums today sound as loud as they do is the heavy use of limiters and compression. But a new thread should be started if we want to continue this conversation. This thread is about Bluefinger.

I love this part... Yeah, we did it!
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3114 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  17:27:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd like to know more about the other two players dan and jason.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
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kfs
= Cult of Ray =

USA
888 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  17:45:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe Dan and Jason were part of Dunmore.

Or...maybe their names aren't really Dan and Jason.

______________________
I've seen blue you've never seen
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3114 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  17:58:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd like to know at least as much as I did before kfs' last post.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
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Jefrey
= Cult of Ray =

USA
918 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  00:51:02  Show Profile  Visit Jefrey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I don't think it sounds anything like Doolittle, it just gives me that same feeling, like I never want it to leave my car.

I wonder if the Dan is one of the Band Of Dans that make up They Might Be Giants live band. All the other musicians for the last several years of live shows have been named Dan.

== jeffamerica ==
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OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =

United Kingdom
446 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  01:32:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It only reminds me of Doolitle in that I play it as incessantly as I did that album in 1989. And Bluefinger doesn't sound that raw to me, especially Lolita which has quite a lush quality and Threshold Apprehension which sounds more 'polished' than the other tracks.

Godspeed
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TheUglyLover
- FB Fan -

25 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  04:04:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage

quote:
Originally posted by TheUglyLover

If you use a limiter and compressor won't you just level it all off? To me that would make it sound dead. It think it sounds great the way it is.



This is getting out of hand, we should start a new thread for this topic. But while I've got you, the whole reason albums today sound as loud as they do is the heavy use of limiters and compression. But a new thread should be started if we want to continue this conversation. This thread is about Bluefinger.

I love this part... Yeah, we did it!



Fair enough. Bluefinger is just getting better and better for me. Do you think the lack of lead guitar parts and/or solos were intentionally left out? I think it makes for rawer rockin' sound.



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cptnpasty
- FB Fan -

Ireland
120 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  04:26:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i think your right about the bluefinger style not being particularly "Deal". I was just wondering whether releasing such a rocker this year might have the effect of making a future pixies release seem more plausible and credible to someone who has been ambivalent about the possibility, y'know?

also, is there any kind of consensus on whether what we're hearing is the finished article, or pre-production? i love it as stands, but there's real potential there as well for a big polished production...

Edited by - cptnpasty on 04/24/2007 06:13:32
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frankoholic
- FB Fan -

Belgium
38 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  07:21:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If there is a 'please don't pollish bleufinger' petition, I'll be glad to sign it. This is the way a honest rock album should sound like. Is this raw? I don't even think so. (Almost) Everything else you hear on the radio is just extremely overproduced.
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cptnpasty
- FB Fan -

Ireland
120 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  07:33:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
lol, as it happens i'd have no problem signing the petition myself, but i think it's a nonsense to argue that polished production is a bad thing in and of itself. Trompe le Monde was polished.

So was Honeycomb, so was Bossanova.

Some material will merit a certain "treatment", and although i don't think it's necessary as such, i think the material on Bluefinger could withstand the odd keyboard etc....
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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *

United Kingdom
2222 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  07:59:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some of the songs have clearly had more production than others... Capt Pasty, TA and Lolita spring to mind. Certain others, great songs that they are, sound a little demo-ish, which doesn't really bring out their full potential.
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =

France
777 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  09:29:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by frankoholic

If there is a 'please don't pollish bleufinger' petition, I'll be glad to sign it. This is the way a honest rock album should sound like. Is this raw? I don't even think so. (Almost) Everything else you hear on the radio is just extremely overproduced.



"Honest rock album" ?
But FB's compositions are not only honest, they're sofisticated and wildly poetic. Sometimes the production doesnt reach the level of both his poetry and his song structures and melodies.
It feels like a western filmed with a mobile phone.
Of course Bluefinger is not like that but it could be a bit more "widescreen".
(I'm not a production freak, it could work with just one microphone for other songs like Violet or like Raiderman on FRMR)
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  10:46:15  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm convinced that the final album will probably feature all of these takes, but there will have been some additional EQing, and mastering on the final. This version, as an album, isn't mastered very well, as Ziggy said. The tracks don't quite match yet in overall levels or clarity. Lack of a completed mastering process will also explain Benji's disparity between systems. A final master will sound pretty good on damn near anything. Plus, I think the bitrate, at least on the version I have, is lower than CD quality. I'm at work right now so I can't check on my computer, but I think it's 192 or so.

All that being said though, FMRM had many of the same problems (Listen to Elijah, then skip to Where The Wind Is Going - it's like putting cotton in your ears). So I guess you never know, and Bluefinger sounds pretty good the way it is.

I love this part... Yeah, we did it!
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =

France
777 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  11:40:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know that Fb quote from the bestof press text "Rock'n'roll is not about the sound of the snare drum" ?
That explains a lot of things. That's why he's so complementary with some producers like Feldman. FB is as precise and meticulous with his compositions than EDF can be with the sound and arrangements.
Yet, Bluefinger is already quite well produced, it's just that the level and the ambition of the songs is hard to bring to a final recording without thinking "very very good but with such songs it could have been at the level of the beatles, and I cant hear any George Martin round there". It's like the producer will have to swet his own blood to record properly a FB good song.
Does it make any sense?
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frankoholic
- FB Fan -

Belgium
38 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  14:27:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

"Honest rock album" ?
But FB's compositions are not only honest, they're sofisticated and wildly poetic. Sometimes the production doesnt reach the level of both his poetry and his song structures and melodies.


That is because production is NOT on the same level. A recording of a song is just capturing something at a certain point in time, while the song for that matter, is eternal. ¨Production should be minimal, so the soul of the song is captured at his best. Whatever.
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =

France
777 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  17:50:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by frankoholic
That is because production is NOT on the same level. A recording of a song is just capturing something at a certain point in time, while the song for that matter, is eternal. ¨Production should be minimal, so the soul of the song is captured at his best. Whatever.



That's fair. It's called archiving, and I guess he started that with "The cult of Ray" but some might say "Come on Pilgrim". On that point of view Frank Black did well to archive his billions of songs instead of doing a George Martin production for each one of them. It would have been too long and too expansive.
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2007 :  21:09:39  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but has anyone noticed how similar Discotheque 36 is to 85 Weeks from Pistolero?

I love this part... Yeah, we did it!
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OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =

United Kingdom
446 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2007 :  00:38:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque Sometimes the production doesnt reach the level of both his poetry and his song structures and melodies.
It feels like a western filmed with a mobile phone.




Brilliant analogy, but I doubt anyone would want or expect a lavish 'everything but the kitchen sink' production. The 'polish' on the likes of Threshold and Lolita (that's definately the wrong word) is very subtle and at just the right level I think.

Godspeed
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