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OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
469 Posts |
 Posted - 02/10/2007 : 04:18:13
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| I've been a fan since 1988. The first Pixies song I heard was 'Gigantic' on John Peel and I was immediately hooked. I loved Frank's first two albums even more than Pixies but everything since then has been a bit of a curate's egg for me; after the originality and invention in every release from 'Come on Pilgrim' to 'TOTY' I've found it it difficult to stomach his increasing propensity for mundane song structures, old school guitar solos and country twang. Don't get me wrong, Frank Black is my favourite artist and there is plenty I love on every album, I just get frustrated and disappointed if I'm not anything but thrilled by his music. Does anyone skip 'My Life is in Storage' after 1:58? This sums it all up for me. |
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Born to Lose
- FB Fan -
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 05:54:48
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| Actually, I don't skip "My life is in Storage' after 1:58. Honeycomb is definitely not my favorite FB album, but I really enjoy all of his work. |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 06:59:41
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Mundane song structures??? Is this the same Frank Black I listen to? Take "My Life Is In Storage," for example. Not so mundane. It's in 6/4 time! And the second half -- I think it makes me cry more than any song in his catalog. But I'm a sucker for love songs.
But I know what you're getting at, oldmanoty. There was a change after TOTY. Not only did the music change, but so did the themes of the songs. Myself, I got lost after that album, and wasn't the biggest Frank Black fan for about 10 years. And then suddenly all the solo and Catholics stuff clicked for me, and I still can't get enough of most of those albums -- except for maybe the first Catholics album. Maybe over time the music will click for you, too. (And maybe someday FMRM will click for me, but I doubt it.)
 Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 08:56:27
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| Hi, OLDMANOTY. The change of pace with FB's solo work was difficult for a lot of Pixies fans to accept, but TOTY is pretty eclectic compared with a lot of rock music. Frank just wanted to branch out, and to his credit, has always wanted to grow and develope as and artist. |
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s_wrenn
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1851 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 11:11:40
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When I first started buying fb&tc records after listening to franks solo stuff I didn’t really warm to them. That changed after about a month or so.
They are genius defined in circular plastic form.
Give them a go.
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pixiestu
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2564 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 11:34:02
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I'd have to say that FB's best work has come after TOTY. FB&TC self-titled is my favourite album. Some of the songs on FMRM and Christmass are already amongst my all time favourites so I certainly don't feel disappointed.
It was recently said in a review by a forum member that if Gouge Away was on Show Me Your Tears it would be considered the weakest track. I'd have to agree with this and think the same about a lot of Pixies songs.
"The arc of triumph" |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 14:04:30
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The end of Storage is very moving. Is that really a good example? The guitar solos at the end of 1846 fit better to your explaination.
I know what you meen but I think you were looking for one particular thing that maybe Frank doesnt do anymore, or not so much. He does other marvelous things, you have to follow him. |
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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
2463 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 16:39:40
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| It's not my favourite FB album, but certainly rewards repeated listening. Many fine, fine songs on 'Honeycomb'. |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 16:58:42
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| why does honeycomb always get dissed?? it is getting really old. |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 18:13:00
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People just don't get "Honeycomb" yet. Give 'em 10 years.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 19:08:09
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| true |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 19:47:18
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| One of his albums has to be his worst. |
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tisasawath
= Cult of Ray =
Wallis and Futuna Islands
783 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 00:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque
The end of Storage is very moving. Is that really a good example? The guitar solos at the end of 1846 fit better to your explaination.
1826 is a great song, I like the interlacing of the two rhythms in the "first part" and also the two guitars soloing in the "second part".
see, there are songs that someone dislikes while someone else couldn't do without, it's a broad spectrum, for many different tastes
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AAAAWWWWWRRRIIGGHHTTTTT !! ! |
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OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
469 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 04:21:53
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I've played FB&C albums more than solo in recent years so I've certainly given them more than 'a go'. My initial problem with them was the 'live to two track' thing; I can't help imagining how much better great songs such as 'Western Star' or 'Robert Onion' would've sounded if they'd not been recorded so quickly and primitively. I know the idea behind it was to conjour a kind of primal rock n' roll immediacy, but to me too many of the songs on those albums sound a bit flat and, well, unfinished. Then there's the guitar solos! For me the best guitar solos are simple, direct, not a note wasted; on some FB&C songs the opposite is true and I also think they sound, for want of a better phrase, a bit too obvious. Finally - country music. I just don't get it so I suppose that's my problem!
Having said all the above I have slowly grown to love those albums, particularly BLD's, which seems to have more depth than the others. |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 06:45:16
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Another thing that really helped me break through with these songs has been hearing live versions and demos, much of which I've heard on the frankblack.net podcasts. That's helped me find the heart of many songs -- and it doesn't matter to me how polished they are or aren't.
Then again, if you don't like 'em, you don't like 'em, and nobody will begrudge you for your taste.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 12:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by OLDMANOTY
Then there's the guitar solos! For me the best guitar solos are simple, direct, not a note wasted; on some FB&C songs the opposite is true and I also think they sound, for want of a better phrase, a bit too obvious.
Yeah they really sound like guitar players from the seventies. People like Johnny Winter! Santiago or the Pavement guy sounded more like kids having fun making great noises and melodies. It is strange that Frank, who is probably the first influence of indy rock songwriting, allways went back to the guitar hero style. I remember Santigao saying he was ashamed when he shew the pixies demos to other guitarists, who made fun of his noises and simple melodies. I guess this is part of the pixies "casual" genius: they sounded like they really were, not like they would have dreamt to be. |
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pixiestu
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2564 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 14:24:37
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I love the Catholics solos! All My Ghosts, Back To Rome, well probably all of the self-titled album actually, Massif Centrale, I Love Your Brain, most of Devil's Workshop. For me the list of great Catholics solos is endless. Well okay, not endless, but very long.
"The arc of triumph" |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 14:37:23
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quote:
Originally posted by IceCream
http://forum.frankblack.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16768
OLDMANTOTY, I agree with you. Read my posts in the thread linked above; I summed my opinions up perfectly, and PsychicTwin made some good points.
Thanks for bringing up that thread again, IceCream. And thanks for starting this one, OLDMANTOTY. There's no way we're all going to agree on what's the best Frank. Lemme just say this yet again, though -- I'm glad as hell to have both Frank and this forum. It's a great body of work, and I doubt there's another forum out there that's blessed with the same quality of material with which to talk about.
Oh, and God bless "Honeycomb," my favorite album of all time. It breaks my heart to keep hearing people (in both these threads, especially floop) say bad things about it.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
Edited by - coastline on 02/11/2007 15:06:43 |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 15:37:00
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quote:
Originally posted by pixiestu
I love the Catholics solos! All My Ghosts, Back To Rome, well probably all of the self-titled album actually, Massif Centrale, I Love Your Brain, most of Devil's Workshop. For me the list of great Catholics solos is endless. Well okay, not endless, but very long.
"The arc of triumph"
I cant think of any particular solo between Teenager of the year and Honeycomb. I like these albums, especially SMYT and BLD, but I just CANT sing the solos when I listen to them. And without listening WhiteNoise Maker or even Fiddle Riddle I can sing every note of the solos. Not that I find the catholics solos bad, but they dont seem composed. It s very good and warm guitar impro but it misses some catchy and weird melodies. Workman himself seems to change his attitude bettween TOTY and the self titled, where he seems to enter the studio, listen to the song once and play a wild forgetable solo. |
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Chris Fabulous
- FB Fan -
45 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 20:41:12
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I kind of agree with OLDMANOTY. I tend to really like most of the Nashville stuff, but the Catholics output is really flawed to me.
There is a ton of wild overplaying and undercooked guitar on all of the Catholics albums. The biggest culprit, to me, is Rich Gilbert. While not altogether without their charm, his parts are often so busy and distract from the vocal.
I also really dislike the way the recordings came out on the "brown album”, Devil's Workshop and Black Letter Days. I fully understand the sentiment, but why record live to two-track when it has to be mixed on headphones in the same room as the band, as on the latter two of those records? It’s impossible to get a decent result from that. Some of those mixes are outrageously bad, even when held up to other live to two-track recordings like Pistolaro. Studio time wouldn’t have had to be an issue, since they owned the “mobile studio.” They could have recorded live to multi-track (even in the most rudimentary way) and mixed later at someone house. I understand that would have betrayed the concept, but if the record is better for it, why not?
There are also several songs in the Catholics catalog that I think might have been best left on the drawing board, too. Everybody’s got their favorites, but "1846" would first on my list of Frank songs I could live without. And is “New House of the Pope” really a better cut than “Gouge Away?” Not to me.
I listen to and enjoy all the albums pretty often, but when I do, there's always a part of me that wishes more time and thought had been put into the production. Dog in the Sand is the only Catholics album I wouldn't want to change ANYTHING about.
www.chrisfabulous.com |
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OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
469 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2007 : 02:57:27
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I think you're spot on there, Chris Fabulous. Every Catholics album has great songs but for me they're badly undermined by that recording process, which results in a lack of detail and depth in the music; they're like demos, work in progress.
To stop being negative for a moment (it's hard for me, I'm a grumpy old b*****d)I love much of 'Honeycomb', which I wasn't expecting to - same with FMRM. Underneath that 'traditional' songwriting approach and laid back musicianship I think there's a tangible Blackian essence; 'Selkie Bride', '...Storage', 'Honeycomb','Kiss My Ring', 'It's Just Not Your Moment' - they, among others, all have it. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2007 : 03:12:57
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I'm almost pining for the days when Tiven would step in and attack someone's completely subjective opinion just for the sake of argument. Good times.
 Numberwang? |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2007 : 09:42:01
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it's all a matter of taste. If you would ask me: what do you like better the sound on the first 3 FB discs and the Catholics-ERA? I would definately answer that I like the catholics-sound better. I'm into Lo-Fi and love listening to demos by any artist (that I like), and to me the catholics records don't sound like demos. They sound pure and real to me, I like the sentiment too, sure, I admit. The songs breath, you hear the enthousiasm (you hear some faults too, but I don't find robotic playing that attractive in music anyway). A pro-tools studio version of BLD or SMYT would not work I guess.
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God save the Noisies |
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ded13
- FB Fan -
12 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2007 : 09:55:17
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Hello here!
Do you want to find something HOT? |
Edited by - starmekitten on 02/13/2007 11:25:06 |
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kfs
= Cult of Ray =
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2007 : 11:15:03
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| Stop that, ded13! |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2007 : 12:29:25
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pfff, that's not even a good porno-site
try:
www.myspace.com/yopmusic
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God save the Noisies |
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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
2463 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2007 : 12:55:47
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| Yeha, I was just thinking about the Tiven era. It was great to have him popping up and sharing stories and anecdotes; the attacks on forum members were an amusing extra. |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2007 : 13:14:59
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Ha... the owners are in hollydays and there come the porno guys!
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 01:50:45
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Aside from the 1st catholics album & its b-sides I think most other Catholics songs would've benefitted from the fuller arrangement of Dog in the Sand. Songs like "Robert Onion", "Bullet", "Stupid Me" & "Dog in the Sand" are exciting to listen to; most of BLD & DW sound flat, even the full band songs.
When I popped Honeycomb into the cd player on the way home from the store, I remember hearing the beginning of "Selkie Bride" and thinking " Shit, I just wasted $15" but by the time I got home I had already found a few songs that I really liked, like "Honeycomb" and the 1st half of "My Life is in Storage". |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 02:23:04
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BLD sounds flat? You guys are weird.
Denis
"Can you hear me? I aint got shit to say." |
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TheUglyLover
- FB Fan -
25 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 09:16:13
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quote:
Originally posted by vilainde
BLD sounds flat? You guys are weird.
Denis
"Can you hear me? I aint got shit to say."
I second that. BLD is one of my favs. And I definitely don't skip "My Life Is In Storage". I never did quite understand how people could not make the transition from the Pixies to Frank. He's just a class act no matter who he is recording with.
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 09:43:39
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I listened to the second half of "My Life Is In Storage" a couple more times last night, with an ear to the entire range of sounds. Man, that's a beautiful song. The guitar solo at the end is so emotional, but what I love best is the keyboard/organ/whatever that weaves in and out of the guitar solo. Amazing musicians on that song (and the whole album). And the lyrics are one of FB's saddest lamentations ever, outside of "I'll Be Blue."
I heard or read somewhere that the second half of "My Life Is In Storage" was originally a completely different song, called "Funk." Or something to that effect.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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cellar_door
- FB Fan -
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 10:46:03
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I think one of the most important things to remember is that FB changed, the way we all did. You can't stay in the "Pong" phase of your life forever. Frank changed, he got older (we all did), and his musical voice has turned into this. If you're not in that musical space, it's probably because you can't relate to it. I know my life slowed down a lot, and I gained a lot of perspective on things. So when I listen to "Sing for Joy" or "Paints Grows Darker Still" I can relate to that much more then I can relate to Los Angeles etc... For me personally I prefer the new sound and the bigger range of emotions and tougher subject matter. And if FB is writing like this, presumably he feels the same way.
I was a hawk and I just flew...yeah
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 11:14:50
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Brilliant. You put it perfectly, cellar_door. I guess I hadn't made the connection that I have aged and changed in ways that somewhat mirror the changes in Frank Black's music. And I guess his music has aged in a way that reflects the change in a person's outlook as they age from early-20s (Pixies) to late-30s/early-40s (Honeycomb). Being seven years younger than Frank, I'm a bit behind, but my heart has followed him pretty well.
But it's still OK when Frank rocks. And it will always be OK when Frank rocks.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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langdonboom
= Cult of Ray =
USA
260 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 12:22:46
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"after the originality and invention in every release from 'Come on Pilgrim' to 'TOTY' I've found it it difficult to stomach his increasing propensity for mundane song structures, old school guitar solos and country twang. "
I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- the word is "subtlety". Frank lost a lot of people when he stopped wearing his 'weirdness' on his sleeve. The genius went underground and into the smaller touches and structures that don't scram "LOOKIT ME! I'M NEW!"
To each his own. |
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I'm new here, love Frank, but....
