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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
 Posted - 02/13/2007 : 12:39:45
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Wow. What an original topic. The way everyone chimes in to ponder this fascinating subject is also a groundbreaking first here on FB.NET.
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His name is Dalton. He's got a degree in philosophy.
-bRIAN |
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kelladwella
= Cult of Ray =
Germany
729 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 12:42:35
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| Ahh. Irony at last. |
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OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
469 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 17:20:32
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| As a newcomer it's an original topic to me, though I now see it's been covered quite a bit. As for growing older with the music, I'm slightly more elderley than Frank but not quite ready for Perry Como yet. Not that I'm comparing Frank to Perry....apart from maybe 'Violet'. Only joking. |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 19:17:40
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It's been covered before, but it's a fresh discussion now that some time has passed.
Transmarine, whatever happened with courtesy?
 Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 01:44:49
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Oh dear. It's a fine thread and we'll have no making the newcomers feel bad here. Friendly forum.
Idiot. |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 07:43:04
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| I'll never get rid of that topic. It's talking about Stanley Kubrick's movies: you can see them from many many angles. If I listen to a Sonic Youth song, it will just make me think to my 15's. But a pixies or Frank Black song allways gets a new meaning over the years. If it was a video game i'd say it has a very long life duration. |
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Ten Percenter
- FB Enquirer -
United Kingdom
1733 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 08:15:06
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quote:
Originally posted by OLDMANOTY
As a newcomer it's an original topic to me, though I now see it's been covered quite a bit. As for growing older with the music, I'm slightly more elderley than Frank but not quite ready for Perry Como yet. Not that I'm comparing Frank to Perry....apart from maybe 'Violet'. Only joking.
Why, Violet is a work of unparalleled genius. There was even a thread in the song's honour. The same cannot be said (yet) for "Magic Moments".
"I thought that I had reached bedrock, but I had yet to reach Birmingham..." |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 08:59:00
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I'm still kinda new on this forum ... was there really a "Violet" appreciation thread?
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 10:10:50
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Yeah but it started with someone who thought it was flat and boring.
The thing about Violet and many other songs is that Frank sings it slowly and in his low octave. Most rock fans like him quicker and higher.
An example: the live podcast version of "I'm not dead..." was sung one octave higher and it sounded much more like the emotive/angry Frank Black we (think we) know.
Now I thing he turned one octave down so many songs these ultimate ten years because he didnt want to get stuck into that cliche of the high voice. But unlike David Bowie, he proved he's still capable of singing the old tunes at the same octave. |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 10:20:35
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I think "Violet" failed on more than just the voice. But I don't wish to hijack this thread any further, so I'm shutting up now about "Violet."
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Miss Thing
- FB Fan -
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 12:52:09
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Friends,
I've stayed mum for a long time about the whole "Violet" bashing thing. But I find it compelling, as it smacks of conservatism, censorship and the Suits: "That Violet song just doesn't have enough commercial appeal. Its a business misstep, I tell you. Crude, primitive love songs just don't sell to the male, white, 15-27 age demographic. I think we should skew paranormal at this time."
Understand it this way: The song "Violet" is a theme, and the Jean song is another theme, and the storage song yet another, and if you put them together you have a very accurate snapshot of what was going on at that time.
To my mind it was brave that hubby put Violet on Honeycomb. Its rather personal. Of course there would be backlash. But the story he was unwittingly telling wouldn't have been complete without that song.
Apology/courtship. Sad/happy. Yin/yang. Blah/blah.
Seen this way, maybe the song could be more tolerable to those of you out there that find it to be a weak link.
xo Vi
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kfs
= Cult of Ray =
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 13:48:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Miss Thing
Understand it this way: The song "Violet" is a theme, and the Jean song is another theme, and the storage song yet another, and if you put them together you have a very accurate snapshot of what was going on at that time.
To my mind it was brave that hubby put Violet on Honeycomb. Its rather personal. Of course there would be backlash. But the story he was unwittingly telling wouldn't have been complete without that song.
I always wondered what you thought about the song and what has been said here. Thanks for clarifying that for us.
It's not my favorite song but I think it's really sweet. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 14:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Miss Thing
Friends,
I've stayed mum for a long time about the whole "Violet" bashing thing. But I find it compelling, as it smacks of conservatism, censorship and the Suits:
I know this is odd and potentially awkward conversation about a song about you, but how does not liking a particular song smack of conservatism and censorship? We're expressing our own thoughts that we just don't enjoy the tune. It has nothing to do with corporate attitudes about maximizing sales. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 14:48:32
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true,
I love that flower of fertility-line
especially because we know Frank really wanted kids (he said that in a dutch interview).
It's a sweet song. As for as bashing goes, it's a bit cliche song, but most of Honeycomb embraces that. Actually every Frank album embraces some cliches. I like it to some extend, not every cliche is a nice one, and I'm sure other people will like other cliches.
that said, keep on singing on the rec's of your hubby
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God save the Noisies |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 15:22:34
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I didnt notice a real hostility to that song on this page.
I would guess most of the fans precisely regret the conservatism of those who seem to be completely closed to songs like Violet and just wake up when they hear a rumor about a new pixies album!
Anyway the records stay: I just begin now to appreciate the David Byrne samba album (Rei Momo) ! |
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moksha23x
- FB Fan -
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 15:34:57
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by Miss Thing
Friends,
I've stayed mum for a long time about the whole "Violet" bashing thing. But I find it compelling, as it smacks of conservatism, censorship and the Suits:
I know this is odd and potentially awkward conversation about a song about you, but how does not liking a particular song smack of conservatism and censorship? We're expressing our own thoughts that we just don't enjoy the tune. It has nothing to do with corporate attitudes about maximizing sales.
Whomever "We " who "just don't enjoy the tune" is,... probably fit the demographic Miss Thing spoke of : " Crude, primitive love songs just don't sell to the male, white, 15-27 age demographic."
Umm....Miss Thing stated she thought Charles rather Brave for putting the song on the album......for it might be misunderstood by the demographic, suits, you, etc. I understand the demographic spoken of (male, white, 15-27) is from a generation that downloads One song at a time off of iTunes or limewire, BUT "Violet" was part of an ALBUM......it told a piece of the story that the artist wanted to tell. The song may be of a different shade than you dig.....but it truly is a piece of his soul that completed the story (or the ALBUM),..I know I enjoy the the album in its entirety....as I'm sure others also do.
Again, the song was included on an ALBUM, hence, " the story he was unwittingly telling wouldn't have been complete without that song."
Come on, man, its valentines day..........that's cold........try to enjoy the tune.
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Edited by - moksha23x on 02/14/2007 18:36:53 |
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OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
469 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 16:31:22
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| Hey, it was only a gentle dig at a gentle song. |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 16:50:16
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Moksha: has your post has any kind of meaning or is it a cryptic mystery message ?
I already had trouble to understand Miss Thing's post, but there, my poor english knowledge cannot go further.
What's the big deal with that cute little song anyway ? |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 17:37:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque
I didnt notice a real hostility to that song on this page.
I would guess most of the fans precisely regret the conservatism of those who seem to be completely closed to songs like Violet and just wake up when they hear a rumor about a new pixies album!
Anyway the records stay: I just begin now to appreciate the David Byrne samba album (Rei Momo) !
I don't like the song "Violet" and I like Frank Black albums better than Pixies albums. In what way is that conservative? |
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Miss Thing
- FB Fan -
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 17:53:37
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Oh, I was being silly with the censorship thing. Not serious. Conservativism is the wrong word, of course. Maybe waht I'm feeling is just that people want what they want, and they get turned off when a song, record, etc. is not their cup of tea, or different then what they desire their artist to sound like. Of course! We all do this. But. I'm just asking, in this case, to see beyond what you wanted that record or song to sound like, and just acknowledge that each song was a piece of a puzzle. You don't have to like the song to appreciate the puzzle...(?)
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moksha23x
- FB Fan -
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 18:16:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque
Moksha: has your post has any kind of meaning or is it a cryptic mystery message ?
I already had trouble to understand Miss Thing's post, but there, my poor english knowledge cannot go further.
What's the big deal with that cute little song anyway ?
Ha! it wasn't meant to be "a cryptic mystery message"......I actually went back and tried to "clean up" the post a bit so it might be more understandable. |
Edited by - moksha23x on 02/14/2007 18:18:06 |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 18:23:36
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thanx for stopping in violet. it was good to hear your opinion about the song.
when ever I think about the song violet, I always think about the line half way between blood and the sky... I think that is the best fb/bf line ever.
also, after cactus, I think this is the best fb/bf love song ever, too. the song violet really yanks at your heart because you know that the sentiment is genuine. very sweet and perfect for a v-day listen. |
Edited by - Daisy Girl on 02/14/2007 18:28:02 |
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moksha23x
- FB Fan -
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 18:27:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque
Moksha: has your post has any kind of meaning or is it a cryptic mystery message ?
I already had trouble to understand Miss Thing's post, but there, my poor english knowledge cannot go further.
What's the big deal with that cute little song anyway ?
actually.....is your message some sort of "cryptic mystery message", what are you saying??? |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 20:32:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Miss Thing
Friends,
I've stayed mum for a long time about the whole "Violet" bashing thing. But I find it compelling, as it smacks of conservatism, censorship and the Suits: "That Violet song just doesn't have enough commercial appeal. Its a business misstep, I tell you. Crude, primitive love songs just don't sell to the male, white, 15-27 age demographic. I think we should skew paranormal at this time."
Understand it this way: The song "Violet" is a theme, and the Jean song is another theme, and the storage song yet another, and if you put them together you have a very accurate snapshot of what was going on at that time.
To my mind it was brave that hubby put Violet on Honeycomb. Its rather personal. Of course there would be backlash. But the story he was unwittingly telling wouldn't have been complete without that song.
Apology/courtship. Sad/happy. Yin/yang. Blah/blah.
Seen this way, maybe the song could be more tolerable to those of you out there that find it to be a weak link.
xo Vi
I've always felt uneasy saying on this forum that I don't like this song, for just this reason. I figured that the object of the song might have hurt feelings to hear it being bashed. And I empathize. But the fact is, it IS a simple, sappy love song. And I suppose we Frank Black fans expect something a little more sophisticated.
But I like the point that the song is part of the "Honeycomb" puzzle. I've said a number of times on this forum that this is my favorite album of all-time, mostly because of how I connect emotionally and because it literally helped save my own marriage. I've always known it to be a very personal album for Frank -- he called it his "Blonde on Blonde," which was Dylan's personal opus. And the song "Violet" is a big part of the story. It's not hard to listen to the lyrics to the album and hear the transition from one relationship to the other: Jean to Violet. There's some bad stuff in there, some guilt, some happy memories, and lots of moments of rebirth and uplift. "Violet" is the apex of that rebirth, and then "Sing for Joy" recaps the whole thing. So I like that about it, and I suppose "Honeycomb" would be less complete without it. But all by its little self, "Violet" is a sappy little love song, and I just can't help but wish it were a little more ... well, I don't know ... more like Dylan's "Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands," the last track on "Blonde on Blonde." Or at least more weird and Frank Black-ish.
Please accept my apologies, Violet, if I hurt your feelings.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 20:55:21
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The song is simple and obvious just like what you feel when love is happy.
Two other songs like that:
XTC "Stupidly Happy"
TMBG "NEW YORK CITY"
By the way, it's well known that sad love made much more classics... probably because the artists work harder alone ! |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 21:13:50
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I don't hear how "Violet" is any more "sappy and simple" than any number of other Frank songs. In fact, I would call it less "sappy" than, off the top of my head, "Do You Feel Bad About It?" or "Coastline" (both songs that I like, by the way).
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moksha23x
- FB Fan -
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 21:51:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque
By the way, it's well known that sad love made much more classics... probably because the artists work harder alone !
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tisasawath
= Cult of Ray =
Wallis and Futuna Islands
783 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 01:47:48
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on another note, that reminds me of something Thom Yorke said after the release of a new album (was it Amnesiac?) about the songs then becoming 'somebody else's songs, not being his own anymore', so he didn't relate to them in the same way anymore
with this song/album scrutiny does someone else start thinking of Annie Wilkes, Paul Sheldon's strongest(*ahem*) fan? j/k
-----
AAAAWWWWWRRRIIGGHHTTTTT !! ! |
Edited by - tisasawath on 02/15/2007 01:49:19 |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 01:57:12
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quote:
Originally posted by blckfrncs
Do I have a song called Violet or something? What's going on? I'm confused.
OK, now I'M confused.
Anyway, Violet... Doesn't the fact that only you love the song "Violet" make it even more special to you? Your husband writes a song about you and it's so intimate that nobody likes it but you. That's awesome.
Denis
"Can you hear me? I aint got shit to say." |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 03:12:12
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i really don't think it's that bad.
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 06:25:48
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All right, Violet is absolutly NOT a simple and cute little song. It contains a cryptic magic formula that drives crazy all the forum members of the world. |
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1965
= Cult of Ray =
Australia
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 06:44:26
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I remember reading that the segueing of Violet was deliberate, to be 2nd last (preceding Sing For Joy) as "the calm before the storm..." In the context of Honeycomb, I think Violet also works well as the counter-balance for Strange Goodbye, so V does have its role. As tunes go, it's different, but I still like.
(( There's a perfect explanation for the shit that I've been in. Soon as I find out I'll let you know... )) |
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duplicatedman
- FB Fan -
15 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 15:33:44
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This is my 1st post and I must say I thoroughly am enjoying this site! Bravo to FB/BF for actually having the interest in participating!
quote:
Originally posted by blckfrncs
Do I have a song called Violet or something? What's going on? I'm confused.
Yes you do. Maybe Miss Thing can remind you how it goes....
I guess when you crank out a new album every 6 months you forget a few along the way, lol!
Back to the subject of this thread....
My personal favorite FB albums are his earlier efforts as well. I will cut anybody who says the 1st FB&tC's isn't pure genius from start to end. That album had me at the record store the day Pistolero came out feverishly waiting for the doors to open.
Though I listened to Pistolero a ton and even saw him on tour three times during that stretch Pistolero as a whole was a bit of a disappointment for me. It just seemed a little uninspired and missing something. Each album in succession after that have dampened my enthusiasm for the next a little more.
Starting with Pistolero his albums seemed to lack the one or two pop-masterpieces that pulled together the rest of his meanderings into the fold and made them all seem part of a bigger masterpiece. They also contained a couple songs that I found myself wanting to actually skip when they came on. I respected the fact that he was evolving and trying different things but I just didn't respond as well to them as the earlier FB stuff.
The year he put out Devils Workshop and Black Letter Days really was a huge letdown for me. Those albums contained some real clunkers that I couldn't understand. So much of it was downright depressing and none of the kick-ass rockin vibe that I gravitate most to remained. A couple of the songs that attempted to truly rock out had critical flaws that ruined the effort as a whole for me. It was as if Frank lost the ability to self edit and was literally just releasing everything he wrote and recorded without thinking. While that is certainly a cool thought in principle, none of the songs on either album grabbed me in the way his previous songs did. I wished on some levels he had consulted me before releasing them so I could have given him critical feedback, lol (the exact same way I felt about the Stones A bigger Bang mind you so my ego knows no limits) The end result of buying two unsatisfying albums by him at one time was that I actually felt a little ripped off.
I really liked Honeycomb but it's so mellow and sad that it just rarely makes it into my shuffle.
I know from seeing him live he still loves to rock and be crowd pleasing but why so mellow and uncommercial in the studio? Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love FB and I'm glad he's indulging his desire to explore different evenues in his recording career. All of my favorite song writers have done that at points in their careers but most of them eventually go back to what they do best (Neil Young is good example of this). I just hope and pray FB finds the muse to want to bust out the poppy-rock n roll again like only he can bring.
Is FB too settled and staid to wanna pen anymore poppy-rock anthems?
I hope not.
And BTW if he really has gone back to calling himself Black Francis on his next solo work it gives me extreme optimism that the mellow/ country vibe is going on hiatus. I hope it's true!
Frank if you read this I love you man. Send me the demos before your next release and I'll fix them up right. LOL!
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pixiestu
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2564 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 15:41:37
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quote:
Originally posted by duplicatedman
My personal favorite FB albums are his earlier efforts as well. I will cut anybody who says the 1st FB&tC's isn't pure genius from start to end.
Phew, I'm alright there then. It's my favourite album. Hi, btw, duplicatedman. Your username is taken from my favourite FB song!
"The arc of triumph" |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 15:49:07
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Yeah, welcome, duplicatedman. Lots of great thoughts there. And nice to see someone else long-winded on this forum. I'm sort of with you on the disappointment when BLD and Devils Workshop came out, but like all his work, it's grown on me. And there were indeed some serious gems on those albums that were recognizable right away. Like I keep saying, give it some time. Nothing this guy does has ever clicked for me right away. (Solo, that is. I was hooked on just about every Pixies song from the get-go.)
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Topic |
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I'm new here, love Frank, but....
