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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
 Posted - 04/24/2003 : 21:24:50
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Or maybe Frank Black should make a fund for me instead... saying:
"Thank you Derek for buying all my albums. I've made 8 albums, so that's about 100 dollars, oh, and thank you for coming to two of my live shows, that's another 40. You bought two of my shirts didn't you? That's about 24 bucks right there. Here is some money for you!! Love, Frank"
I think I changed my mind about donating voluntarily to him. lol.
-Derek |
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pong
= Cult of Ray =
France
315 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2003 : 01:30:54
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so, let's get back to the willcoming cover album (or tribute cd?)
my choice (after a lot of thoughts), so, the winner is : True Blue.
that's ok this time?
- Pong
"i'll be on the first fligh" |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11674 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2003 : 02:38:15
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Pong, no problems with True Blue, I think that one could be turned into a pretty awesome song, so looking forward.
As far as the rest of it goes, no we are and have always been intending to release this CD as a collection of freely available MP3's on the FTP server with a tracklist and hopefully some art for those that want to fancy it up. I do agree that since we're not making any money, I see no reason why Frank or the crew should have any problems with the concept... I should think that they'd embrace it. And Dave, while I don't agree with you that we want every single thing submitted on this CD, I also don't want to scare people from trying. The official plan is thus: We will make a CD of the songs which are best done (this doesn't necessarily mean I like them personally, just that they are well done), and that will be the CD. The rest will be put on the FTP separately so that everyone can still listen to them and choose as they want, but I need some perogative for people to put their best effort forward, and so I am willingly being selective on the CD.
So that's that... again, I like to hear comments and ideas, but as I mentioned, I don't really think it's reasonable/realistic for this project. |
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faskner
- FB Fan -
Brazil
75 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2003 : 12:15:34
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| my band, Tom Bloch, is going to do Thalassocracy. maybe we'll do Living on Soul or All my Ghosts also. But Thalassocracy is our priority. |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2003 : 13:37:22
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| I had always thought this would be a fun little non-profit project. We're not selling the CDs or making money in any way off of them, so I don't see what the problem is. I suppose someone could come up with a reason why this may constitute as copyright infringement, though. I mean, what the hell, if I were in a band and we played a cover live, we wouldn't have to pay for that, right? This is almost the same concept...it's just recording for fun. It's also a bunch of tracks recorded in a bunch of different manners which will most likely range from really lo-fi to really professional sounding...why would we want to sell that? This is more or less just a collection of cover tunes that's more organized like an album. |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
649 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2003 : 13:53:35
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Thanks for all the thoughtful replies to my suggestion. Here are my thoughts on what has been said -
I agree that it is likely that Frank and his publishers may not care too awfully much about this quirky online vanity project, and may in fact be flattered. However, his companies are represented by BMI, a super-enormous company which is notorious for going after unpaid royalties with a vengeance. It's always better to ask the proper people first and if required, play by the rules, rather than risk a nasty note from a lawyer and then have to backtrack and try to figure out who downloaded what and where the money is going to have to come from.
Plus, it just looks nice on our part.
As far as any record label releasing this tribute; I feel this is highly unlikely, since even a tiny indie has to spend several thousand dollars to have a compilation like this mastered, cleared legally, designed, packaged and pressed. There's not much point in anyone bankrolling a fan-based project like this, especially when it may only generate 300-400 takers.
What could very well happen, though, is that eventually an established label might at some point want to do a legit Frank Black tribute CD, and some of the better submissions on our MP3 thing might get noticed and tapped for inclusion.
For that very reason, I like the idea of weeding through the submissions to pick the best-sounding ones for a slot on the "album proper", while putting all the other entries on the FTP site. That way, everyone's stuff gets heard, but there is a cohesiveness to the final selection. It also gives Dean something fun to do ( ), and hopefully inspires everyone involved to do their very best.
quote:
Originally posted by ProverbialCereal
I thought it was only going to be MP3's and no money would be involved at all, not even money used for shipping and handling, etc. And if it were that way, why would we need to reimburse Frank Black if no money is being transfered to anyone in anyway?
Now I'm not against giving Frank Black royalties, but if all our covers are going to be downloaded by people for free, and no money is being tossed around, why would there need to be money tossed toward Frank Black? Or is it the fact that we are using his copyrighted songs? I guess I always thought you were infringing on copyright laws if you claimed credit for something that's not yours, and more importantly, you make money off someone else's art or whatever.
I think I'd be more for having an optional fund for Frank Black. Like, "thank you frank for writing these songs and letting us play them. Here is some money." I'd donate some toward that fund. But I guess not many other people would voluntarily do that.
-Derek
There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the area of copyright infringement and publishing, even among working musicians. It took me quite some time to get a handle on it myself, but here's a basic rundown of the way the whole thing works which will hopefully shed some light on the subject:
Anyone who wants to can go into a studio or sit down at their computer or boombox and record a cover of a song written by someone else. You can also haul it around and play it back for as many people as you'd like. However, as soon as you duplicate that recording for any reason, you have infringed on the rights of the owner of the song's copyright, and you are required by law to pay them a licensing fee (or royalty).
It doesn't matter whether you sell the copy or give it away. It's the act of making the duplicate that is prohibited by law.
If you were to record a tape of you singing ten Doors songs and make 500 copies on your home tape deck and give it to all of your friends and neighbors, you'd be expected to pay the Doors' publisher a small fee for every one of those tapes. If you do it on the sly, are they likely to find out about it? No. If they did, would they insist that you pay them? Yes. Would you have a legal leg to stand on if you chose to refuse? No.
Since we are doing this project in plain view of Frank, his manager and his record label, they're going to know about it, and it would be wise to find out their position before we present the finished download.
Now, most copyright holders are the writers of the songs, but in many cases, due to shitty contracts, bad legal advice or hard times, the songwriters may have sold off the rights to their copyrights and no longer receive a cut of the profits. For example, Willie Nelson wrote the song "Crazy" which became a huge hit for Patsy Cline and has sold thousands of copies every year since, generating millions of dollars. Unfortunately for Willie, he sold the rights to that song for something like $200 when he was a broke kid in the 1950s, and he doesn't see a dime of that.
However, unlike Mr. Nelson, Frank is not the kind of artist whose songs are covered often. Except for a few high-profile cases like Bowie and (ahem) Papa Roach, the only publishing money he makes comes from sales of his own LPs, and whatever commercial endorsement or film/TV placement deals he can wrangle (and we all know how often his songs show up in Sunny D ads or Adam Sandler films). That's why his publishers are probably more proactive than most when it comes to making sure he gets his due (as that's how they earn their money as well).
Anyway, that's the reality of the situation. I hope that clears up the notion of why he is legitimately entitled to remuneration whether or not we charge for the covers.
If FB and his people are noncommittal or indifferent to the whole thing, then I think the idea of having a link to a voluntary Paypal donation button is a great idea. The whole situation could be explained briefly, and if anyone downloading the album wanted to choose to contribute the correct amount for Frank's publishing, they could. That could then be forwarded to his people on a regular basis, and even if it only amounted to a few hundred bucks, I'm sure he/they would appreciate it.
I'm thrilled to be a part of this project regardless of the outcome of this royalty discussion. Ultimately, it's up to Dean and the folks in charge of this site as to how we proceed. If anyone wants me to help by running interference with his publishers or facilitating a voluntary donation account, I'll be glad to do so, and can report back with whatever information I receive. I have handled royalty payments for covers before and am familiar with the procedure.
And, by the way, I'm officially doing "Cold Heart of Stone."
Thanks!
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
649 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2003 : 14:16:38
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quote:
Originally posted by El Barto
I had always thought this would be a fun little non-profit project. We're not selling the CDs or making money in any way off of them, so I don't see what the problem is. I suppose someone could come up with a reason why this may constitute as copyright infringement, though. I mean, what the hell, if I were in a band and we played a cover live, we wouldn't have to pay for that, right? This is almost the same concept...it's just recording for fun. It's also a bunch of tracks recorded in a bunch of different manners which will most likely range from really lo-fi to really professional sounding...why would we want to sell that? This is more or less just a collection of cover tunes that's more organized like an album.
El Barto,
Don't get me wrong, in general, I theory, I feel that stuff like this SHOULD be under-the-radar and not worth worrying over. It's just that it's never a good idea to assume everyone else feels the same way. I'm just playing devil's advocate.
I've been collecting commercially-manufactured bootlegs for over 2 decades, so I have no moral problem with buying product from companies or individuals that refuse to pay proper royalties on songs. It's just that in this case, by not even offering to compensate Frank's agents, some folks might rightly view this as kind of thumbing our nose at the legal and business side of his art.
Of course this is a non-profit endeavor. Like I said before, it's not really about the money - it's the principle of the thing.
It may very well be that simply the fact that we're having this discussion and reaching some sort of reasones consensus will be all that is required to show good faith on the part of this site and the artists involved. Who knows?
And as far as not having to pay royalties when you play a cover song live in a club - most bands don't realize that BMI, SESAC and ASCAP send their reps around on a regular basis to check and see what sort of groups are being booked in most nightclubs and bar that feature live entertainment.
Based on their findings, the clubs are then hit with a bill for estimated royalties. This covers the live performances of songs that may have been written by artists who are represented by those three main companies. The clubs then have to pay that yearly fee, which depending on the size of the club and the frequency of their live music shows, can reach into thousands of dollars a month.
Most clubs don't talk about this much, which is why you've probably never heard of it. But it's part of their expenses, like insurance or utilties, and indirectly that cost is passed on to the bands through their door splits or production fees, or to the audiences through their drink prices and cover charges.
Look for the BMI or ASCAP stickers on the doors of the venues. That means they're paying the dues. There are plenty out there that dodge the bullet for awhile, but sooner or later they catch up to you.
One club I know of got around it by steadfastly refusing to book anyone other than local, unsigned talent who had never been published, and the rule was that they could only play originals. No covers of any sort. Also, the club never charged a cover and instead passed the hat for donations to the act. ASCAP hated this, but after two years, gave up and quit hassling them.
Of course, with entertainment like that, the club went out of business soon therafter. It's an admittedly flawed system, but right now it's the only one which exists...
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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Kingmob999
- FB Fan -
57 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2003 : 14:31:06
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Its really difficult deciding on just one song, but Im gonna do..."how you went so far",and Im workin on "czar" and "bad harmony" as a back up if no one chooses them.
So set me up for how you went so far if no one has it
thanks guidian |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2003 : 16:49:15
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mr. radiator,
since i am not a drummer, nor do i really wish to collaborate on "i've seen your picture," will there be a problem with me using drum loops for clearance/royalties reasons? one is from a very well known song...
-brian |
Edited by - Broken Face on 04/27/2003 14:49:46 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11674 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2003 : 12:33:51
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Rest assured that we are currently looking into the legal aspects and/or seeking permission to do this CD, so I will keep you all posted. Thanks for bringing it up. Anyway, I was heavily bored and so I thought I'd look at what the album coverage is as a percentage (how many songs are covered from the total of each album). The results may disturb you :).
Devil's Workshop - 45%
Dog in the Sand - 40%
Black Letter Days - 33%
Frank Black - 33%
FB&C's - 33%
TOTY - 32%
Cult of Ray - 31%
Oddballs - 25%
Pistolero - 21%
... and no one has a song from SSMVGD (Pan American Highway, anyone?) :) |
Edited by - Cult_Of_Frank on 05/01/2003 20:42:09 |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2003 : 20:51:33
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Crazy, because BLD and Teenager are the longest two Frank Black albums, and they have the most percentage tiles. Yet DW is the shortest and only has 9%.
-Derek |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
649 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2003 : 03:48:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face
mr. radiator,
since i am not a drummer, nor do i really wish to collaborate on "i've seen your picture," will there be a problem with me using drum loops for clearance/royalties reasons? one is from a very well known song...
-brian
If you use drum loops that are "royalty free" like the kind that come with a softwae package or pre-programmed into a standalone unit, you're fine. If you sample some yourself from an existing recording, you're technically liable, but if you distort and/or rearrange, manipulate them enough, it is unlikely they will be noticed or traced, and while the legality of that is a bit murky, the odds are that since this is a free download thing, you've got nothing to worry about.
If someone ever approaches you about putting your finished track on a commercially-produced album for sale, you'd be shrewd to contact the rights holders of the record you sampled and see how much they'd charge for a clearance. It could be as little as 50 or 100 bucks, or it could be much more.
If they want more than you could afford or they won't give up the rights, you could go down to the local music store and ask around till you find a drummer who'd record himself playing virtually the exact same part for something like $10 and a six-pack, and then you could use that as much as you wanted till the end of time...
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2003 : 12:59:53
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Hey everyone ~ i've gotten word from Charles' manager Ken, who just spoke to him, saying that we're good to go. (So long as we go with the current plan of MP3's and no CD sales, and limiting access to the FB FTP site.)
Go nuts! |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
649 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2003 : 13:59:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Hey everyone ~ i've gotten word from Charles' manager Ken, who just spoke to him, saying that we're good to go. (So long as we go with the current plan of MP3's and no CD sales, and limiting access to the FB FTP site.)
Go nuts!
That's wonderful news, and a very pleasant surprise. A big thanks to both Frank/Charles and Mr. Goes for being so accommodating (thusly encouraging).
I can't wait till July for the finished "product."
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7438 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 01:27:14
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I was wondering if there are any people who only look at the site and not the forum. Perhaps we could write a note about the tribute CD in the news page. I really don't know if it's useful, but anyway.
Denis |
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pong
= Cult of Ray =
France
315 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 01:29:21
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yes, good idea
- Pong
"i'll be on the first fligh" |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11674 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 02:58:25
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Yeah, it's probably a little late, but I don't think it could hurt even if it only pulls in a few more contributors. I'll also publicly thank Dave for contacting Ken/Charles on my behalf and of course to Ken/Charles for allowing us the freedom to do this. Est mucho appreciado (hey, I'm Canadian, French is my second language - not Spanish). :) So we're now an official CD, or at least, a tolerated one. Maybe FB&C's will even partake in a listen of the disc when it's done (maybe we'll even mail them each a copy or something).
... And then they can cringe and/or realise how awesome they are, no offense to all you, but there's no doubt FB can do it better. I only consider you scum a-compared to FB. |
Edited by - Cult_Of_Frank on 04/29/2003 13:02:59 |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 13:14:58
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hehe..thanks Dean. =)
Can you submit an item on the News Submission page and we'll get it listed in the News - thanks!! (Sorry, i'm waay too short of time for this right now..) |
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Steak n Sabre
* Dog in the Sand *
Uzbekistan
1013 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 13:58:41
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| Well, I always thought the project was for a specific collection of MP3's put together by forum members for forum members. It's still good to know we have the OK from The Man. Unless everyone is doing 2 min. tracks, this thing would end up being at least a double-disc as a CD. .. And thanks for that bit of inspiration, Dean, all good scum rises to the top........ |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11674 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 14:12:44
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Heh... well said. I am really looking forward to hearing what you guys are going to put together - I've already heard some great ones from ambitious members of the project.
On to the other point, maybe this is a good time to clarify the 'CD':
The 'CD' (note the bunny ears) is not going to be a physical CD that is shipped, sold, or otherwise distributed. It will be a collection of all MP3s that make the cut, put in an aesthetically pleasing order (alright, so I'm a little high on my own abilities), with album art to complement it. The CD will be available as a collection of MP3s plus some images to download for free off the FTP server, and since you will have them numbered and with a track list, it will be entirely simple for you to burn the offical CD yourself. There will also be bonus tracks, separate from the CD tracks, which will consist of all those MP3s which, for one reason or another, did not make the final CD selection. Those will also be downloadable and so you can also add those tracks to the CD if you choose, or remove what you want, or whatever...
That is the plan, that's what we're going to do, and that's why I haven't put a limit on the number of participants in this project. Not to mention that I'm sure we'll lose one or two by the wayside as we get closer to July 1st. Any questions? |
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JoshIAm
- FB Fan -
Australia
67 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2003 : 05:08:05
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| Ill go - The Scene if no-one has grabbed it - or otherwise --> How You Went So Bay, I mean Far. 8P" |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11674 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2003 : 11:08:30
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| The Scene it is. |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
649 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2003 : 12:08:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
It will be a collection of all MP3s that make the cut, put in an aesthetically pleasing order (alright, so I'm a little high on my own abilities), with album art to complement it.
Any questions?
Dean,
You may have already thought of this, but it would be nice if after the running order was selected, the tracks could all be balanced out as in terms of volume. Most of the time when I hear compilations of MP3s, they're all over the map as far as that goes. For the "album" to remain cohesive, it would be great if it was pretty much at the same level from start to finish.
Also, as far as the artwork goes, would it be feasible for each contributor to submit credits and/or a high-res photo to go along with their track? It might be neat to see what some of the artists/groups look like...
Keep up the great work -
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11674 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2003 : 12:20:27
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| Yeah, I fully plan to normalize all the tracks as best I can among other things. On the artwork, I do want to have each contributor submit the credits as they wish them to appear in the artwork as well as an official title or name for the track listing (for myself and Speedy M, for example, it will be Asterid... at least so far). I don't know about individual artwork for each track, that might be a bit overwhelming. I suppose it could be in the bonus materials section with the MP3s that didn't get on to the CD, or maybe it would just be better to have a link in the notes to your band website and go from there. I personally am certain that there's as little desire to see a high-res pic of us as there is for me to provide a high-res picture, but I'm OK with putting a link to each person that wants one in the credits. Then maybe people with the CD can also check out some of your other works. |
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echo park
- FB Fan -
Saint Barthelemy
128 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2003 : 20:48:09
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| where's a list of chosen songs. I could review it with a friend or two and get back with a choice. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11674 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2003 : 23:05:43
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The track list is below, but we're looking at May 1st as a deciding date, so if you could do it sooner rather than later, that would help a lot. Or at least narrow it down by then to a few. The actual song doesn't have to be done until July 1st, and I'm a little flexible on the May 1st thing, but just so you know.
http://forum.frankblack.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1557 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11674 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2003 : 23:57:17
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Hoo... well 36 contributors was more than I expected on board, though I still have not had confirmation from all of them, so maybe we'll see that number drop towards 30 (which is still lots). Anyway, the official cutoff is at midnight today, now that it's officially May 1st in Saskatoon (get out the map of Canada), and I'm pretty happy with the roundup we've got going.
Starting tomorrow, no more additions without some sort of reason and/or prior contact with me, so if you're thinking about it but undecided, decide and email me, or at the very least, email me. We will also move on to looking at a name for the compilation beginning tomorrow (May 2nd) in a different thread, so start your non-posting brainstorming now. This thread will still be where to post general progress reports/problems, or general discussion of the project.
... just so everyone knows that the wheels are turning and we slowly but definitively move towards our goal. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11674 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 00:55:20
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| ... oh yeah, and I'm pleased to say that the album ratio is settling around the 30% mark as well (most albums are 30% represented now - see above). Pistolero & DW are both quite weakly represented still, and less surprisingly Oddballs, but it's now on the map at least. You can see it all in a post somewhere above. Good work, guys. |
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cvanepps
= Cult of Ray =
USA
442 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 15:50:32
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Hey guys. How does one sign up? Just making a post like this? Well in that case, I'd like to take Skeleton Man if I may. Me likes the chorus progression on that one.
Also, are you guys doing Frank Black impressions or are you remaking the tunes (like going reggae and so forth)?
-= It's not easy to kidnap a fat man. =- |
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ericr
- FB Fan -
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 15:54:13
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I know this is late, but I just registered...My band would like to do "I Switched You". Not only that, but we've already done it and simply need to send a recording. A far as meeting the quality-conditions of this collaboration, I'm confident that it will rock your eyebrows off your forehead (and I'm modest).
Eric R.
http://puerco.iuma.com |
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ericr
- FB Fan -
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 15:56:24
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Well so much fr that idea. I forgot to use my alternate identity. Shrug. Got room for another band? Gotesplud is my other band, I play guitar, Scott of Fishboy-Rex is a good screamer.
Eric
Eric R.
http://puerco.iuma.com |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
649 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 16:29:14
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quote:
Originally posted by ericr
I know this is late, but I just registered...My band would like to do "I Switched You". Not only that, but we've already done it and simply need to send a recording. A far as meeting the quality-conditions of this collaboration, I'm confident that it will rock your eyebrows off your forehead (and I'm modest).
Eric R.
http://puerco.iuma.com
I shortlisted that song but ultimately rejected it simply because I found it too daunting to do justice to.
As far as I'm concerned, that's one of the finest few minutes of FB & The C's recorded output to date, and if you're brave enough to tackle that one, I'd love to hear your take on it, whether it makes the official "album" or not.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11674 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 16:36:44
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Eric, you can send them both to me, better odds in getting on the album proper. The one that is not on the album will be available for download on the FTP site with the other covers if you so choose. I'd personally like to hear it as well.
cvaneps, you're officially signed up to do Skeleton Man. Some people are doing their own takes on the song and some are just trying to impersonate - whatever fits your vision of the song. Send me an email so I can add you to the list. |
Edited by - Cult_Of_Frank on 05/01/2003 16:38:05 |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 16:48:44
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Hey Cult of Frank, put me down for "I'll Be Blue"
I'm gonna try out "Big Red" also, but someone else can do it if they want.
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11674 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 17:01:23
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| Cool, done and done. Send me an email, if you'd be so kind, just so I have your email address. Thanks. |
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Frank Black Tribute CD Chat
