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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
 Posted - 07/08/2003 : 14:35:07
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I just have to say I'm grateful to have made the final cut, it really means a lot to me. I have no qualms with uploading the raw WAV. I can send at 30KB/s so it can be sent rather quickly and painlessly. Is there anything you'd prefer to have me remix, A4C? Boost this or that? Can you believe it's recorded to a cassette 8 track? Analog owns you.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 14:42:28
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A4C, yeah, if you're not too busy and have a sec to just let me know if there's anything you want me to do special with the mix, I'm going to remix it. There's a very, very annoying and obvious dip (created by me) in the vocals in the "wouldn't look for another love, no" that I'd like to fix. Lemme know if this jives with your plans.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 15:46:12
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quote:
Originally posted by pong
so you think that's it's better that only one person vote? and one more time : it's not against you COF. you did a very good job, and i'm sure you vote for the better tracks. but i don't like the fact that's the 20 tracks result of the choice of ONE person.
ok, every body will think that i'm upset because my cover is not a winner.  . i must admit that's it's right. i thought she was enough original to be select. but, sincerely, this way to choose the songs is not into my ideologie.
I think it's better that no one gets labelled as having the worst track, yes. I honestly do understand where you're coming from, and as I've said your track was fairly well done and among the top of those that didn't make it, but you haven't even heard the tracks that made it yet. As far as deciding on my own, I'm sure you will also see, when you've heard the tracks that made it, that I didn't let any personal opinion into the process. There are tracks on there that are very well done but that I really don't care to listen to. They're just not my cup of tea... but I could see someone else liking them. If I were making the CD for myself, your track and several others might be on there instead of a few of the current ones, but I was making the decisions instead based on creativity, quality, and more concrete things than my own opinion.
And just to make sure I wasn't totally out to lunch, I brought Speedy M over on Sunday to listen to all the tracks some more with me, and look at what decisions I had made. We listened to the tracks and discussed each's merits for several hours that day (and night), and in the end we were in unanimous agreement on the final tracklist.
All that said, the decision making process was well-established from the beginning through to the end without change, you wanted a producer to make this album happen and that's what I've done. I understand that you're not against me, but you have to understand that that's part of my job: making the best CD possible - and making a CD (some songs had to be cut, it's unavoidable). If you don't care for the way it turns out, maybe someone else should do the next one or maybe we should find a different way. For my part, I'm extremely pleased with the tracks I've received and with the final product, and I hope that when you hear it, you will be too. And don't forget that your track will be on the FTP with everyone else's.
Anyway, if you'd like to continue this discussion, Pong, I'd be happy to do it by email. Everyone who reads this thread has seen it several times already. But the decision was made and it's too late for to go back now.
For those waiting on hearing about a master, I'm also waiting on A4C's response to my email, but I'll hopefully let you know by tomorrow morning first thing. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 16:01:03
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| Oh, and if someone has some free time and wouldn't mind posting how many songs from each album made the final track list, I'd certainly appreciate it as I haven't the time myself at the moment. I'm just curious how many from each album and that sort of thing. If not, I'll do it sometime in the next few days anyway. |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 18:14:46
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Sup fools!
I don't think it's necessary for everyone to send me CDs. It won't make that big of a difference.
However, I would like to get 320kbps or better versions for:
Czar - Disintegrated Einstein
Doggone - Jason Phelan
End of Miles - Paul Zaic
Because these songs a sparse you can hear the MP3 compression a whole lot and it'd be better to have a larger file.
Jim which song is yours and I'll tell you what I think. Is it I Will Run After You?
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 18:29:23
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That is the song.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 18:30:55
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Jim - I checked out your mix and I think it's fine. No one will notice those dips but you.
*** I forgot to mention ***
Christopher Van Epps - Skeleton Man - this mix is out of phase. I don't know where it might have happened, but the whole mix sounds out of phase. Are you using a stereo spreader or aural exciter? If you could fix that, that'd be great. It'd be a shame to have what otherwise sounds like a great track ruined by this.
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =
USA
899 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 18:44:42
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"You Ain't Me" scorecard
Frank Black - 2
Teenager of the Year - 4
Cult of Ray - 2
and the Catholics - 1
Pistolero - 2
Dog in the Sand - 1
Devil's Workshop - 1
Black Letter Days - 6
Oddballs - 1 |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 19:19:40
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That's cool there is at least a song from each album. I'm glad (and a bit surprised) my song made the cut. I really had no idea as to whether I'd be on it or not. Now I know. Interesting how you put Pure Denizen after my track like it is on the album.
A4C - how does my mix of White Noise Maker sound? When I mix my songs, I just go by ear (thru old sony headphones, the big kind) and hope it sounds good in other stereos. I should probably get high quality speakers. I've used trial and error basically.
-Derek |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 20:52:39
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quote:
Originally posted by ProverbialCereal
That's cool there is at least a song from each album. I'm glad (and a bit surprised) my song made the cut. I really had no idea as to whether I'd be on it or not. Now I know. Interesting how you put Pure Denizen after my track like it is on the album.
A4C - how does my mix of White Noise Maker sound? When I mix my songs, I just go by ear (thru old sony headphones, the big kind) and hope it sounds good in other stereos. I should probably get high quality speakers. I've used trial and error basically.
-Derek
Your levels were pretty good, but I think you must have tinny headphones because your mix in general was very dark and dull. I'm making it brighter in mastering. Also, I'd compress your vocals more and with a faster attack time. They're popping out a bit too much. Try listening to CDs you're familiar with using your headphones right before you mix so you can hear what they sound like compared to your track. Most engineers will A/B the song they're working on with a similar song from a CD.
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 21:10:14
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quote:
Most engineers will A/B the song they're working on with a similar song from a CD.
That's what I do...even though I don't have super high quality speakers, I do have an awesome set of cans (Sony MDR-7506s, the kinds the pros use) and a good set of speakers, both of which I use to listen to the music. I then aim for a similar sound when mixing.
I'm surprised the most songs were done off of BLD. I don't know why that seems so shocking...
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 23:33:45
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| Thanks for the scorecard, Chris. I have to say I never even suspected that the compilation was BLD heavy, that is surprising. But hey, if they're well done they're well done. I'm glad that we got at least one per album at any rate. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 00:06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by ProverbialCereal
Interesting how you put Pure Denizen after my track like it is on the album.
Yeah, it just sounded right and then we realized that it was the actual order and that that was probably the reason, but damned if I know better than the man himself. |
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echo park
- FB Fan -
Saint Barthelemy
131 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 03:41:14
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Atheist - - I'd be interested in your comments on our So. Bay as far as mastering. Someday soon I'll detail the recording/mixing process, maybe on the recording setup thread around here.
I did slap some moderately light compression on the mix buss, and many of the channels had some light and not-so-light compression, too.
I have not yet dialed my speakers and room acoustics to my liking, just adjusting as each project seems to dictate.
I'm curious to hear if you've noticed anything in particular.
-eric |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 06:34:05
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quote:
Originally posted by echo park
Atheist - - I'd be interested in your comments on our So. Bay as far as mastering. Someday soon I'll detail the recording/mixing process, maybe on the recording setup thread around here.
I did slap some moderately light compression on the mix buss, and many of the channels had some light and not-so-light compression, too.
I have not yet dialed my speakers and room acoustics to my liking, just adjusting as each project seems to dictate.
I'm curious to hear if you've noticed anything in particular.
-eric
Actually, yours is one of the harder ones to master. I think the music sounds great, but the vocals are really loud so when I try to compress the whole track, the vocals end up pumping the compressor. I had to dial in a faster attack time which normally chokes a mix but I think it's okay in this case because this song isn't very dynamic.
It sounded to me like you got a nice thick sound going, but then couldn't hear the vocals unless you turned them up too much. You have to thin things out. My advice is to find a nice sounding frequency in the vocals, say 2.5kHz. You cut that out of the band and boost it in the vocals (I say this not knowing how much experience you have.) That's an easy way to do it. When I mix I use that process for every relationship, kick and bass, guitars and bass, vocals and guitars, etc. It's mostly the loud guitars that are getting in the way because when the song changes near the end, the balance sounds fine. Overall though, you did a good job!
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 11:31:15
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Wow, i'm excited to hear the finished tunes.
Luckily, i'll be # three in the line, since i'm the guy with the keys to the FTP site. =) |
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miguel
- FB Fan -
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 11:59:37
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I'll ask you too A4C.. what's your opinion of the levels in I could stay here forever?
I originally was using some old headphones that were highly inaccurate, I came to find, so the end mix sounded muffled and overly bassy. I then remixed with some new headphones and might have over compensated.. My monitors seem to make everything sound good.. they're not very objective. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 12:15:12
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| Dave, what's the word on getting a webpage done? Can I delegate this to Zipper? (I believe that's who it was) Or do you want it? I haven't heard from Ryan yet either. |
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theonecontender
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
565 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 12:47:29
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| Assuming everything is complete and mastered, couldn't you just 'wham' it up on the FB.net ftp site. The web page and links could come soon after. Just an idea. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 12:59:08
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| Yeah, we'll get it on the FTP site whether the page is done or not. But it'd be nice to get a page up one way or the other. |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 13:15:22
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quote:
Originally posted by miguel
I'll ask you too A4C.. what's your opinion of the levels in I could stay here forever?
I originally was using some old headphones that were highly inaccurate, I came to find, so the end mix sounded muffled and overly bassy. I then remixed with some new headphones and might have over compensated.. My monitors seem to make everything sound good.. they're not very objective.
I really like the arrangement and the levels were okay, but you used way too much mix buss compression. Everything is slamming so hard that you have no dynamics and it sounds very squashed. I'm actually not able to do anything to it mastering wise. I'll probably have to turn it down a few dB or it'll be much louder than all the others. You can really hear it in the beginning when the really low bass hits. The bass pumps the compressor and the rest of the mix gets quiet for a second and then gradually comes back.
I hope everyone takes my criticisms constructively. Mixing is really fucking hard to do and it takes years of dedicated practice to get good at it. I went to school for it and do it fairly regularly and you'll see when my track is up that I'm not God's gift to mixing either.
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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cvanepps
= Cult of Ray =
USA
442 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 14:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Atheist4Catholics
Christopher Van Epps - Skeleton Man - this mix is out of phase. I don't know where it might have happened, but the whole mix sounds out of phase. Are you using a stereo spreader or aural exciter? If you could fix that, that'd be great. It'd be a shame to have what otherwise sounds like a great track ruined by this.
Sorry, I've been busy preparing for a party I'm throwing this Sat. so I haven't been on FB.net in awhile. I sent up a new mix (without stereo imaging delay) about 4 hours ago so it should hopefully be OK. Let me know otherwise.
Just so everyone knows, I plan on downloading every single track that's been submitted, so all the efforts were not for naught!! I'm sure I'm not alone on that point.
Also, that article about MP3 as a marketing/distribution tool tunred out pretty good. There's an online version but it requires paid registration (they get you coming & going, don't they). I have an e-mail version of the article if anyone's interested.
Later, -V.
-= It's not easy to kidnap a fat man =-
http://christophervanepps.iuma.com |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 14:16:40
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| Of course I'd like to see it. And I am sure that most of the people plan to download all the covers - I certainly would (and I suppose have). And having done so, I recommend it highly. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 18:35:39
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Did we/you decide if we'd release the 20 selected, then release the others later on so the 20 selected can "sink in"? Maybe after 2 weeks put them all up on the FTP?
-Derek |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 19:07:45
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Hey Dean - send me the content for the page in a Word doc, and i'll integrate it into the site.
For the person who wanted to design a page for it..sorry, we've already got a 'look', tho if you want to make a heading graphic for the project (see the rest of the site for examples), post a link to it here. |
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miguel
- FB Fan -
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 21:19:56
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yeah it was the loudest song I ever recorded, and I wasn't sure why. I used compression only in the simple mastering. It's almost like the sound went up everytime I did a mixdown in cooledit. Thanks for the feedback..
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 23:57:40
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| Sure, I'll do that Dave. Thanks anyway, Zipper. |
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echo park
- FB Fan -
Saint Barthelemy
131 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 02:08:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Atheist4Catholics
Actually, yours is one of the harder ones to master. I think the music sounds great, but the vocals are really loud so when I try to compress the whole track, the vocals end up pumping the compressor. I had to dial in a faster attack time which normally chokes a mix but I think it's okay in this case because this song isn't very dynamic.
It sounded to me like you got a nice thick sound going, but then couldn't hear the vocals unless you turned them up too much. You have to thin things out. My advice is to find a nice sounding frequency in the vocals, say 2.5kHz. You cut that out of the band and boost it in the vocals (I say this not knowing how much experience you have.) That's an easy way to do it. When I mix I use that process for every relationship, kick and bass, guitars and bass, vocals and guitars, etc. It's mostly the loud guitars that are getting in the way because when the song changes near the end, the balance sounds fine. Overall though, you did a good job!
www.mp3.com/clootie
I gotcha - in fact there is very little EQ on any of the channels - your right - I didn't do much sculpting for fear of wrecking the tonalities that I like. So I never EQ'd if it didn't sound good - I'd re-record something if the tone wasn't right. Only at the 'Strand' section did I bump the highs on the main vocal.
Earlier today, before reading this, I played the track for Ben Mumphrey at the actual FB & the C's studio control room! My perspective in that room was that I was thinking of cutting some of the lower-mids from the pedal steel and maybe the crunchy rhythm guitar on the left. I'm happy to say that Ben likes it and he may play it for Our Hero when he gets back!
Indeed, last week my lady-friend was remarking that her vocals weren't up front enough during earlier mixes. But we also loved the relatively full sound of her track, whixh is sung heavier and harder than her usual thing. My solution was to key the gain reduction of the crunchy guitar (comes in on first verse and stays throughout) with the vocal track, so vocal comes in, guitar is ducked by compressor, then back up after vocal line is done. We notcied that Frank's version is real up front with the vocal.
By the last 'sidewalk, shitty sidewalk' on ours I wanted it to become something of a pile-up with everybody going at it. Then lots of breathing room on the Strand section.
Appreciate your comments - I might try some cutting when I get some time just for fun.
Or, let me know if you think an adjustment on my end would help the overall project. Sounds like you've got a handle on it!
-eric |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
665 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 07:24:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Atheist4Catholics
Sup fools!
I don't think it's necessary for everyone to send me CDs. It won't make that big of a difference.
www.mp3.com/clootie
Really? I was always a bit surprised that 192 was the requested norm for the submissions, as I've always heard that was about the lowest you could go while still retaining some semblance of clarity.
I'm happy to re-send another MP3 encoded at a higher rate or an AIFF / WAV file, if that will make the track sound better on the finished "record". Just let me know.
I would imagine everyone would be glad to do that if it really improved things...
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 08:39:32
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I guess the reason for 192 was that it needs to be a manageable size that people can download (ande we can store and provide bandwidth for on the FTP), though I think that 192 is a fairly decent bitrate overall, certainly higher than the current norm of 128. I never really thought anyone could tell the difference until I heard back to back a Dears song at 128 and at 256, and the difference was shocking and blew me away. 192 is the middle of the road between ultra-high quality and size, which I suppose is the point of the MP3 as well.
Anyway, we discussed it and because miraculously all the tracks are fairly near the same levels and don't need as much adjustment as we'd thought, 192 will work just fine. I'm actually listening to your mastered version (which has already been completed) as I write this and it comes out sounding quite nice, though admittedly Tim was probably fairly light on your track since it was recorded professionally already. |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
665 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 10:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
I guess the reason for 192 was that it needs to be a manageable size that people can download (ande we can store and provide bandwidth for on the FTP), though I think that 192 is a fairly decent bitrate overall, certainly higher than the current norm of 128. - 192 is the middle of the road between ultra-high quality and size, which I suppose is the point of the MP3 as well.
I'm actually listening to your mastered version (which has already been completed) as I write this and it comes out sounding quite nice, though admittedly Tim was probably fairly light on your track since it was recorded professionally already.
That's cool. Striking a happy medium makes sense. I trust your guys' judgement on this, but just wanted to let you know I'd be happy to send another file (or even Fed-ex a disc) if it made a substantial difference in quality. 
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 11:10:45
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| Just a reminder to everyone that hasn't done so VERY recently (i.e. as a response to my above post request), please send me your full track credits. |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 12:06:52
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Because most of these are loud and active rock songs, you don't hear the MP3 compression very much. The few very sparse, acoustic and vocals type tracks were re-submitted at 320kbps because you could hear digital noise in the high end. If someone showed interest in releasing this tribute professionally, then I would definitely have everyone send me CDs and would probably ask for a lot of them to be re-mixed, but I think we'd be waiting until fall to hear this thing if I had to rely on everyone sending me a CD now. Save your Fed-ex money and give it to Noisy.
I was fairly light on Peter's track. No compression, tiny bit of EQ, and a little limiting. It was very balanced.
BTW - I've saved the mastering sessions for each of the songs so I can easily make adjustments if everyone thinks some need to be made. Since everyone seems to want my opinion of their tracks, maybe I should start a thread of Simon Cowell-like abuses. What do you think? I'd abuse my own track as well. Maybe we should wait until everyone hears the album and we can all abuse by committee.
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 12:37:54
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Yeah! Send all your money to me!
I'm wondering if we should start a separate forum for covers? |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 12:43:40
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| I thought that the tribute CD should probably have its own area, but let's leave this one for now and we can consider doing the next one in a separate forum. I assume we're talking about the same thing and you're not kicking us off FB.Net. :) |
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Topic |
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Frank Black Tribute CD Chat
