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eugovector
- FB Fan -
21 Posts |
 Posted - 07/07/2003 : 14:44:14
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Okay, this is a dumb question I'm sure, but since I'm new to home recording (actually recording in general), what is involved in "mastering"?
Thanks, feel free to reply in my recording setup thread if you don't want to clog this one.
And I'm okay with an 80 min cd.
rev |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 15:29:04
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| This is probably best left ot Atheist4Catholics to answer, but basically mastering is (or at least what A4C will be doing, I assume) is making sure all the tracks are at aprox. the same volume, that they all sound good together, try and eliminate noise and such, basically just a final go over to make everything nice and cohesive. Like proof reading an essay, I suppose. I'm sure it's a very involved process that requires someone with considerable knowledge and skill, and I'm sure A4C can provide a much better (and acurate) picture of what he does. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 15:42:47
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CD LENGTH: I think that 80 minutes is a good total running time. Most people probably buy 80 minute CDs anyway. I say go for the 80 so you can have two extra songs.
SONG LIST: I'm neutral about when you realease the track listing. Maybe 2-3 days before the album is put up for download? We all know the possible songs you chose from anyway, so unless people are really anxious to know what made it, I'd wait. But then again when Frank Black releases albums, we know the track listing months ahead of time. Some impatient people even download it :P
The way you are talking about the songs is making me anxious to hear it! it sounds sweet and I can't wait. Did you say something about July 15 or am I imagining?
-Derek |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
665 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 15:46:08
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quote:
Originally posted by speedy_m
This is probably best left ot Atheist4Catholics to answer, but basically mastering is (or at least what A4C will be doing, I assume) is making sure all the tracks are at aprox. the same volume, that they all sound good together, try and eliminate noise and such, basically just a final go over to make everything nice and cohesive. Like proof reading an essay, I suppose. I'm sure it's a very involved process that requires someone with considerable knowledge and skill, and I'm sure A4C can provide a much better (and acurate) picture of what he does.
Mastering is the final stage before pressing (or in this case burning). Its purpose is to correct any small anomalies that remain after final mixing, as well as (in the case of compiling cuts from different sources) trying to strike a happy medium between tracks so the listener's ears don't get jarred every time a new song comes up with vastly different aural characteristics.
It also involves making sure that there is uniform (or otherwise intentional) spacing between cuts, that nothing peaks into the digital "red", and that all the index codes are proper so that tracks begin when they're supposed to according to the time readout on your CD player.
In general, it's best to correct problems of more than a few db in either direction by a re-mix as opposed to mastering, however that's as pertains to high-end pro-mastering like the kind that is done by established labels on commercial product.
I don't know how relevant that would be to what is being done with these mp3's.
Hope this helps.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 15:58:31
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I basically use 3 tools: compression, EQ, and limiting.
The compression evens out the dynamics so the overall level can be raised without a bunch of peaks clipping the mix. Don't worry, I won't sap the life out of it!
EQ is used usually to add some highs and lows so the mix pops out and sounds louder still. Here it'll also be used to try and make the tracks sound more like each other; so there isn't a real dull one and then a real bright one, etc.
Finally, I use a Waves plug-in called "Ultramaximizer" which is a very nice limiter. Limiting is sometimes called "brick wall compression" because it's basically compression with very high ratios like 20:1, 100:1, or Infinity:1. This is used to boost the overall level of the mix so that it's as loud as it can get, but if something is about to clip, the limiter squashes it down.
I have a fair amount of mastering experience; mostly mastering audiobooks but I've mastered some rock records as well. I should warn everyone that mastering inevitably requires compromising some of the things you might like about your mix in order to make it fit better with other mixes and make it easier to listen to in less than perfect situations like in the car. I'd love to hear what you think when it's finished and I'm willing to make some adjustments here and there, but I think everyone should "hang out" with the masters for a while before coming to any conclusions.
It'll be interesting for me to master MP3's and convert them to MP3 again. I'm guessing it won't make a huge difference, but if it does maybe the chosen songs can be uploaded as 320kbps or even higher. What do you think, Dean?
Feel free to inquire further about any of this. I'm being a little cryptic because I'm getting Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and I'm trying to take it easy on the typing!
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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echo park
- FB Fan -
Saint Barthelemy
131 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 16:22:46
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Hey everybody! I just wanted to post and say that Cynthia and I managed to get our So. Bay track in just under the wire. I haven't posted here before due to busy-ness and not having my own computer, etc. I'm a bit stunned about how close it was - we almost didn't get it submitted. We actually had a really great, fun time recording the song over a few days - the process was very smooth, I learned a lot and had no technical problems. It really was like a total of two long days of work recording and half a day of mixing.
Someone was going to give us a Rhodes to record with and I was really excited for Cynthia to try it on the track, but our neighbor hurt his back and the thing is incredibly heavy, and Cynthia and I could not get it from his house to ours... about 90 steps uphill and it would have needed tuning, etc. My whole approach to So. Bay was to do it the way the current Catholics line-up might do it at a live show, but also to try to use all real instruments and no synthesizers or samplers (I know Rich plays an Alesis keyboard on stage, of course it is far more practical than lugging a Rhodes and a piano and an organ) Well, it never happened with the real Rhodes so instead of resorting to a Roland keyboard patch I did the parts on pedal steel instead and... I LOVE IT!! So it was a great time until...
Going to convert it from audio CD and send the .mp3 turned out to be a rather harrowing 2-1/2 day experience. Well, I'm now initiated into the world of mp3's and Mac OS X. Amazingly, we inherited a G4 Mac just in time to try to figure it out and download LAME for iTunes and all that stuff. But our lousy AOL dial-up kept crashing before the 1.2 hours it took to send the damn thing could happen. I spared Dean the panicky details of all this in my emails to him. Big, big thanks to him for his patience. Funny thing was while our AOL on the phone line was gagging on the file, we got a call on our other line - a solicitaion from the Phone Co. offering us DSL for really cheap! I hate cold sales calls, but I had to go for it - it was just too obviously time to make the leap. So I'm looking forward to being able to hear all of you guys' (and gals') music over our new connection, once they send me the modem, etc. So, maybe a little late but far better than never. We ended up going over to our friends house to send the file... still took many hours to make it work. But we got word from Dean that he indeed got it, not long before midnight! We could have recorded two more songs in the time it took me to send it! But, alas the saga is over and I'm very excited by Dean's comments above about how good the chosen material is. Of course, I hope that we helped make it that way. In other words, I hope we made the cut!
BTW, I'm going to see Ben Mumphrey this week, and I'll tell him about the album. In fact, I could give him a copy when it's ready. It looks like I'm going to be doing an article w/Ben and producer Stan Ridgway on our Manitoba recording session for Tape Op magazine. Hoping to get Charles in on it too, if he ever comes back this summer!
-eric |
Edited by - echo park on 07/07/2003 16:52:11 |
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echo park
- FB Fan -
Saint Barthelemy
131 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 16:35:17
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ok i just read A4C's comment about re-encoding the mp3's. Definitely worth testing out first. I obviously have little experience here, but I have to say it's kind of dissapointing what happens to the clarity of a good mix when it goes to mp3 compression. And then to do it again? Best of luck, I actually trust your judgment, but now that choices have been made, what if the chosen ones would Overnight you a CD of an uncompressed audio to give the album a fighting chance at sounding great? You could master from uncompressed 16-bit audio CDs and then do the mp3. Or maybe you need to hear them as mp3's as you master?
Just my thoughts. I trust you guys know what sounds best!
-eric |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 16:42:04
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| Eric, that's great. I'm sorry about all the hassle in getting the file submitted, but it was well worth it, I assure you. If it makes you feel any better, you weren't the only one, but I appreciate everyone's patience with me in getting these files collected. I'm glad we didn't lose anyone to the mysteries of technology. Good luck with the Tape Op article and thanks again. |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 17:05:09
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I don't see the harm in posting the list as soon as it's decided on. 80 minutes is just fine...I haven't bought a 74 minute CDR in years. Do they even sell them anymore?
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 17:29:12
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i agree, 80 minute cd-r's are definitely the way to go. that's all i own. and it doesn't seem that hard for someone to get a hold of one these days to burn the cd. can't wait to hear this. this may have been talked about before......but.....has anyone thought about actually releasing the cd through a label if it is good enough or is it purely for fb.net people?
ryan |
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miguel
- FB Fan -
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 17:53:25
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80 minute is cool, yeah I haven't seen a 74 min cd-r in forever also.
I'd like to see the songs posted asap personally.
I don't think that rencoding would make that much of a difference but I'd watch the highs.
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 18:26:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Atheist4Catholics
It'll be interesting for me to master MP3's and convert them to MP3 again. I'm guessing it won't make a huge difference, but if it does maybe the chosen songs can be uploaded as 320kbps or even higher. What do you think, Dean?
maybe we should have encoded them at 320 kbps originally, then after they are mastered they could have been encoded at 192.
Oh well, too late. ha. I'm sure they'll sound good.
-Derek |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 20:04:58
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| I don't really think we'll have a problem with them being encoded at 192 for this project, plus all the information is only lost once so it's really not a big deal to reencode the track a second time. If we were to release it through a label though, I'd have to hope that everyone kept their original WAVs or however they stored the song. Anyway, I'm visiting with my sister but I'll be back later to get you all up to date. |
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 21:21:37
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| i noticed from your list you posted that someone else did the same song as me. i thought everyone was doing different tracks? maybe it's a typo or something...... |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 21:40:51
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| No, it's actually not a typo, but they had that version kicking around and so submitted it anyway as a b-side. It was not considered for the CD, however, while your version was. There are several instances of this, such as So. Bay, and Czar, but of course the track considered was the one that was claimed when we were all signing up. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 22:01:26
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| OK, 10:54 PM and I have just posted the final track list in the Details thread. Congratulations to all, I'm sure that whether on the cd or not, everyone is looking forward to hearing your tracks. As I've said before, there are many good ones that had to be left off as a result of size and so on, but I'm sure you'll agree that these are the 20 that probably most deserved to be on this CD, even if you don't necessarily like a certain track, I'm sure you'll appreciate the artistry of each. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 22:22:36
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Oh, and even if you've already done so, those that made the official list, could you please email my airman account with the full credit information which should look something like the following:
Artist: Asterid
Track: His Kingly Cave
FB.Net Member(s): Cult_of_Frank, Speedy_M
Vocals: Russ Laidlaw
Backing Vocals: Dean Katsiris/Mike Velonas
Guitar/Drums: Mike Velonas
Keyboards: Dean Katsiris
Mixing: Dean Katsiris
Contact info: <email (1)> <website (1)>
As I said please email it to my airman account (I obviously don't want to publicize the email address nor have it on the web to be spidered) with the subject: Track Credits so that my email program can organize things all nice and pretty for me. Thanks. |
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pong
= Cult of Ray =
France
315 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 02:53:12
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i don't understand all... (sure because of my english) :
there's only 20 tracks??? who choose them? COF?
why don't put ALL the songs on the FTP and do a "tribute cd survivor"??? it will be more *democrital*. (it's not against you COF, but i think, if it's the case, that's not cool if it's only one person who choose).
if i'm totally wrong, tell me. thanks.
- Pong
"i'll be on the first fligh" |
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The Holiday Son
= Quote Accumulator =
France
2023 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 03:04:42
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Cartland's Superabound not on the CD !?!?!?
What the fuck ?!?! |
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miguel
- FB Fan -
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 06:06:55
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| I think you've done an awesome job getting this project rolling and completed COF. Sticking to deadlines but allowing some room for people. The no nonsense approach was awesome. I've been involved with collaborations that dissolved into the ether and it's really frustrating. The cd I'm sure is great and I can't wait to hear it, I will definately be downloading ALL of the songs. Good show by gawd.. |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 06:33:39
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quote:
Originally posted by miguel
I think you've done an awesome job getting this project rolling and completed COF. Sticking to deadlines but allowing some room for people. The no nonsense approach was awesome. I've been involved with collaborations that dissolved into the ether and it's really frustrating. The cd I'm sure is great and I can't wait to hear it, I will definately be downloading ALL of the songs. Good show by gawd..
I agree. I'm a professional Project Manager for a living, and this project followed the mantra of the Project Management Institute: "On Time, Within Scope and At Budget" (although, there wasn't a budget to begin with), COF seems to be holding to the other two. And that's not easy. I get paid big bucks to do for IT what he's done here, and I'm here to tell you, it ain't easy. And the project isn't even done yet.... |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 07:18:01
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| Well thank you to you both, and to the rest I only ask that you wait to actually hear the tracks that ARE on the CD before the criticisms start rolling in as to which ones were left off. As blackpurse said, it wasn't an easy process, and as I've said before, many times, there are many good tracks that just don't make the cut and all tracks ARE to be available on the FTP site. And Pong, if you'd care to review previous pages of the forum, I think that you'll find an ample explanation of the process and the reasoning behind it. |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 09:22:16
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Hey everyone! I've got the traaaaaaaaaacks and youuuuuu dooooooooooooon't!
Seriously though, they are better than expected (especially mine  ). So congratulations to everyone!
I'm in the process of mastering them and it's making a big improvement. A few of the tracks won't be touched, a few of them will get the "Six Million Dollar Man" treatment. I should have them finished by Monday, but probably much sooner.
If I were to make a blanket judgement about the mixes I'd say "compress your vocals" and "don't be afraid of reverb".
By the way, one of you is a total rebel and needs to be stopped. I mean kick drum on the left, the rest of the drums on the right? Who do you think you are? The establishment cannot tolarate such boat-rocking insolence! I condemn thee to hell!!
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 09:29:42
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| Sometimes, late at night, I hear things moving, making little noises and such... I'm sure it's the reverb... I usually wet myself and pull the blankets up over my head. Nothing can hurt you under the blankets. Except maybe the reverb.... |
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eugovector
- FB Fan -
21 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 09:34:24
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I did compress my vocals, but I don't think I was doing it right. I used one of the presets in CEP2. Can you offer a good link for home recording techniques?
Thanks,
Marshall |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 10:12:51
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quote:
Originally posted by pong
...why don't put ALL the songs on the FTP and do a "tribute cd survivor"??? it will be more *democrital*. (it's not against you COF, but i think, if it's the case, that's not cool if it's only one person who choose).
It would actually be too hard to do a survivor with +50 songs. It would take too long, and we'd need alot people to play. Even if we voted off 1 song a day (which wouldn't happen) it would take a month just to have the songs chosen. And on top of that, someone would still have to select a song order for the album, and with whatever songs we'd chose, there might not be much cohesiveness. Plus, I don't know about you, but with Vovat's survivor, I'm rarely pleased with the results.
-Derek |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 12:19:32
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| Exactly, Derek. Plus there's really no way to do that without people getting upset and offended. How would you feel if your cover that you worked months for was the very first one voted off, whether because it was inferior or because the first few people to vote didn't care for it and the strategic voting kicked in. I'm not sure I'd be interested in singling a song out to be voted off - it's bad enough to just have two large groups (CD/B-side). |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 12:23:38
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| Oh, and I was just going through old posts and didn't notice Eric's mention of overnighting a raw copy or even having it uploaded to me and then to A4C. This might not be a horrible idea, in particular, the latter, but I'm curious what you think about it, Tim. And of course, the rest of you. I know there are several tracks in particular that we'd like to have originals of so that we can get it mastered a bit better. We would need to do this fast, lest we delay Tim even more... |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 12:23:39
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And another thing is, everyone participating in this survivor would have to download all 50 songs, AND listen to them a few times. That alone would take 2 weeks. Ok, well we aren't doing survivor so I don't have to keep saying why it would be bad. Just trying to say it wouldn't work
-Derek |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 12:24:49
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I didn't know his name was Tim.
-Derek |
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Zsolt G.
- FB Fan -
117 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 12:56:55
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| Well, if our track, Western Star, was left off, that means this thing might actually be pretty good. Sorry to make you listen to that Dean. It was hard to gauge how serious this project was, so despited being musically inept, we decided to submit our whack track regardless. It was cool to participate, and I even kind of learned how to use protools. Maybe we'll show you all up on the Pixies tribute....doubtfull. I'm totally fine with Dean picking the official tracks, but I'm all for a Survivor regardless....a really mean one. We couldn't possibly have been the worst submission...or could we? Aren't ya'll curious? It's time to face the music. |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 13:01:12
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| Face the music.... I like that. Worst track? His Kingly Cave. Total shite. |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 14:01:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Oh, and I was just going through old posts and didn't notice Eric's mention of overnighting a raw copy or even having it uploaded to me and then to A4C. This might not be a horrible idea, in particular, the latter, but I'm curious what you think about it, Tim. And of course, the rest of you. I know there are several tracks in particular that we'd like to have originals of so that we can get it mastered a bit better. We would need to do this fast, lest we delay Tim even more...
We wouldn't have a problem overnighting our CD quality version. We have dialup, so the hour and a half it took us to upload our mp3 actually takes us longer than the 5 minutes it will take me to walk to the mailroom at work and say: "Please ship this overnight and charge it to my personal account". Please let us know ASAP if that's what you prefer. I know if I were mastering, I'd want the highest quality to begin with and then once done with masterning up, then shrink it down to an MP3.
Of course I can't speak for others -- overnighting might be a hassle, especially across international borders (which gets a bit pricey). I'm very fortunate that working for a large firm, I have access to corporate discounts and such at UPS and Fedex.... |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 14:12:13
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| Ugh... UPS. Don't send through UPS. They don't seem to like Saskatoon. But they'll pay (insert mighty shaking of fist)..... |
Edited by - speedy_m on 07/08/2003 14:14:21 |
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pong
= Cult of Ray =
France
315 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 14:20:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
How would you feel if your cover that you worked months for was the very first one voted off, whether because it was inferior or because the first few people to vote didn't care for it and the strategic voting kicked in. I'm not sure I'd be interested in singling a song out to be voted off - it's bad enough to just have two large groups (CD/B-side).
so you think that's it's better that only one person vote? and one more time : it's not against you COF. you did a very good job, and i'm sure you vote for the better tracks. but i don't like the fact that's the 20 tracks result of the choice of ONE person.
ok, every body will think that i'm upset because my cover is not a winner.  . i must admit that's it's right. i thought she was enough original to be select. but, sincerely, this way to choose the songs is not into my ideologie.
- Pong
"i'll be on the first fligh" |
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Frank Black Tribute CD Chat
