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Fartbone
- FB Fan -

USA
171 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  08:10:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Didn't you read the other thread? It's because I'm GOD. pfft.


Horale Cabrones
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1688 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  08:11:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank

Thanks Frog, you're right that I don't hold these values as my own (I think somewhere on my personal website I have a photo of me in front of the Venus de Milo) but these are what has been set out here to ostensibly avoid this situation. It's worked for three years. If it needs a change, I'm willing to consider, but at the moment, I see it as the easiest way to enforce.

Thanks for your mature commentary, Monsieur. I am aware that I can do either of those things. That I don't should give you pause.


"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."



You don't do it because you know I'm right and because you are afraid of the consequences. Banning two French members in ten minutes?


I will show you fear in a handful of dust

Edited by - Monsieur on 04/13/2006 08:12:10
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <

4698 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  08:14:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fartbone

The internet: Greatest invention EVER!!!


Horale Cabrones






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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1688 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  08:14:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
PS: Dean, are you going to delete all your posts and replace them by "bye" ?


I will show you fear in a handful of dust
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Fartbone
- FB Fan -

USA
171 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  08:14:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur

quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank

Thanks Frog, you're right that I don't hold these values as my own (I think somewhere on my personal website I have a photo of me in front of the Venus de Milo) but these are what has been set out here to ostensibly avoid this situation. It's worked for three years. If it needs a change, I'm willing to consider, but at the moment, I see it as the easiest way to enforce.

Thanks for your mature commentary, Monsieur. I am aware that I can do either of those things. That I don't should give you pause.


"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."



You don't do it because you know I'm right and because you are afraid of the consequences. Banning two French members in ten minutes?



You're pretty full of yourself, even I know when I'm lame.


Horale Cabrones
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =

Canada
11513 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  08:15:29  Show Profile  Visit Cult_Of_Frank's Homepage  Reply with Quote
OK, Monsieur. Tell me how you would run things. Why would you ban him? Why would you not ban you?

You would ban him because he says annoying things. He never specifically attacks anyone enough to merit a banning.

You also say annoying things. Today has been a great example. And you specifically attack people.

I think there is another question here that you may want to ask yourself.

As for me, I don't ban either of you because I don't think my own personal annoyance is enough to merit locking an account. And because I'd rather attempt, in your case, some form of diplomacy and coming to an understanding than just removing you because we disagree and you're too immature to deal with it maturely.


"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."
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Fartbone
- FB Fan -

USA
171 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  08:22:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm annoying? And all this time I thought I was making progress with my shrink.


Horale Cabrones
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1688 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  08:24:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dean,

Please don't say I'm immature. I just posted about 10 pages of relevant arguments.

The story of the fondamentalist boss who doesn't tolerate 666 is an example. It clearly shows how Brian's argument about a hypothetic firing doesn't hold. Everything can be considered offensive by someone. Especially the mere fact that you are posting on a forum, not working. If I were your boss, I would fire you for that, not for posting a Renaissance picture.

I remember everyone here arguing that the Mohammed cartoons should be allowed, as other people are not supposed to respect islamic rules.

Here we have exactly the same situation.

Now your turn Dean.

Please tell me how I disrespected a Moderator?


I will show you fear in a handful of dust
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =

Canada
11513 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  08:43:04  Show Profile  Visit Cult_Of_Frank's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You want a list of threads? I don't think I need to provide that, you already know that you don't respect us. In any case, it certainly feels that way from here, I think the others mods would agree, and if we're all wrong and you are respecting us, then perhaps it's not being conveyed.

I will cease calling you immature if you're willing to cease acting that way. This post above is much better than a thread called "Monsieur's banning" and another one about locking a thread about a certain date. You're right that anyone can take anything offensively. Probably there are people out there who are offended equally by Thursday Apr 13 and Tuesday June 6 2006.

However, nowhere in the rules that govern this forum does it state that nudity is allowed under certain conditions. The point is that there ARE no conditions. There are no complicated exceptions. It's simple to understand (I thought) and simple to enforce. This is more to me a question of drawing a line somewhere than trying not to offend. If you would place the line at any and all nudity, that is your personal opinion. It may be shared by some or many. My own opinion, as I've stated, is that I have no problem with non-lewd nudity such as the renaissance art posted. Perhaps that's the way the FAQ should read. It's more ambiguous, but probably understood. BUT IT DOESN'T. It says what it says, which is NO NUDITY. There is no ambiguity here, there is no question about what pornography qualifies as art. And Tre/Brian are doing their job in asking to respect that. If you don't, debate like this is what I expect, and some consideration on your part about what is involved in being a moderator and running a forum. The way I have given some consideration to your argument and tried to see where you're coming from. If you aren't willing to do that, that's fine, but I don't see how we can have an honest discussion.

Yes, you're right that people shouldn't probably be on a forum at work, but I don't make any presumptions about what their work is or when they have time. Perhaps they are a graphic artist waiting for an image to render. Perhaps their work is off/on. Perhaps they're on their break. How is any of this relevant? What the worse offense is, pornography at work vs web surfing at work? That's not the argument, is it?

Finally, the Muhammed cartoon. Our rules here are explicitly stated. No nudity. This is our society and these are the laws that we all live by. In European society, for example, nudity is more tolerated. I personally agree with that standpoint compared to the North American tolerance of violence, but I obey the rules my society has placed. This site is hosted in Canada and with fairly clear rules on pornography, so it's easier not to take a chance at drawing the line in the wrong place. And even if it weren't, because that's not the point, these are the lines drawn in this society. There are no rules against posting political cartoons so long as they fall within the guidelines that govern the site.

It's not easy to determine where these lines are drawn to be fair and also maintain a semblance of civility, but here we are. Where would you draw these lines? What would be allowed/disallowed? Draw me up a map and I'll consider it.


"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1688 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:14:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"You already know that you don't respect us" - What's that shit again? What do I know?

You quote my reaction to the 666 thread, but then immediately you justify it yourself (anything can be considered offensive). My thread about "Monsieur's banning" was a direct reaction to your threats.

What you are saying is that we are probably right to disagree, but those are the rules.

People who think there are clear lines that make it unnecessary to use their brains are called nazis.


I will show you fear in a handful of dust
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-

United Kingdom
6369 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:22:33  Show Profile  Visit starmekitten's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I for one argued that they shouldn't have been published and the argument is hardly comparable.

I took down a photograph of (as far as I knew) a girl with her breasts out. The guidelines state it's not on. The last time we had that level of nakedness there was a big thread deletion and a lot of bad feeling. It was in my opinion the wisest move to turn that picture into a link and that is what I did. I did not censor it in anyway, the link is still there free for all to click happily on if they so choose.

I suspect largely argument here is for the sake of it and boundary pushing is done just to see how far it will go. I'm not saying the posting of the photograph was an antagonistic act but I think some of the response afterwards have been.

What is the harm, I hate checking this thread you know because I do feel like I'm looking somewhere I shouldn't. The question is not about art, I'm not ridiculous enough to consider that nudity in art is wrong (thank you cassandra-is) nor do I have any moral objection to the posting of bathing costume photos (thank you monsiuer). What I have a problem with is making trouble for the sake of it. What possible good do you think any of this is doing. What benefit is it going to do you?

We have reached after the current mess a sort of equilibrium on forum now and in turning that photo into a link I was only trying to maintain the equilibrium. I was hoping to avoid another "pictures of beautiful women" mess. Afterwards it was made clear that type of photo isn't on and I thought it had been accepted and we had moved on. It's taking a knife to a just healed wound, it's not fun.

I know full well how pissed off people are with the way things have gone since then. I also know how hard people have been working to remedy it.

What do you want me to do.

-
I tried doing that once, making every minute count. It gave me a headache.
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <

South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:24:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With all due respect to more sexually liberated nations, I have to say that I also shit a brick when I open a thread and there's a scantily clad (or worse yet, naked) babe. I'm here in a room with four other people here at work. Although only one of them is a potential complainer, it would probably mean a visit to Human Resources for me, stupid classes in sexual harassment and maybe even no raise in October. I admit I'm a faceless drone in the big machine, but this is the best job I've had and I like my 19 vacation days per year.


Does anyone remember laughter?
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =

Canada
11513 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:26:49  Show Profile  Visit Cult_Of_Frank's Homepage  Reply with Quote
OK, fine, so last post you called me racist indirectly by presuming that I would allow people to post cartoons of Muhammed because "people are not supposed to respect islamic rules." and now this time you call me a nazi. <sigh> I guess perhaps I see these as insults and direct signs of disrespect. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you think nazis are great and Islamic rights should be ignored on the basis of them being Islamic as opposed to on the merit of what is being suggested.

My post was an attempt to see your side of the argument. If you're not going to do the same, then fine. This is what it's like arguing with a child. I state that I see your side, but...

You still haven't answered where YOU would draw the lines. Or am I supposed to expect you to read my mind as to what's allowed and what's not, because I already can see that isn't going to work. We have many times stated no nudity, then there was a big brouhaha that everyone is clearly aware of, and then there's a topless photo in here. Please show me, oh enlightened one where to draw the lines so that even an infant as well as you, can understand.

You have never been threatened with anything directly. You were warned that further postings of nudity would result in being banned. Quit trying to paint us as nazis and try to CONSIDER WHERE WE MIGHT BE COMING FROM. Instead of just posting laundry lists of complaints. If you'd rather spend your time continuing to regress deeper into childhood then that's up to you, but I won't address you any more and I further warn you that if you regress much further back in time you may be unborn.


"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1688 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:29:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Your equilibrium is losing members. Your wound is not healed, it is rotten.


I will show you fear in a handful of dust
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1688 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:30:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur


Tre,
Your equilibrium is losing members. Your wound is not healed, it is rotten.


I will show you fear in a handful of dust




I will show you fear in a handful of dust
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-

United Kingdom
6369 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:35:04  Show Profile  Visit starmekitten's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm aware of the loss of members and I'm aware of the source of the wound but what can we do? You know amputation isn't an option so you try your damndest to mend it. The locking of the big threads was meant to foster more discussion on forum. It was thought more substance would be more attraction. The podcast is another thing meant to invite interest and this is just the start. We work hard to make this forum as good and as interesting as it can be. It's hard with a duff limb but we try.

All I can ever do is what i think is ultimately for the best.
I'm sorry you feel this is such a bad thing.

-
I tried doing that once, making every minute count. It gave me a headache.
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1734 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:40:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BLT

Although only one of them is a potential complainer, it would probably mean a visit to Human Resources for me, stupid classes in sexual harassment and maybe even no raise in October.

Does anyone remember laughter?



What's your job?
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1688 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:41:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank

OK, fine, so last post you called me racist indirectly by presuming that I would allow people to post cartoons of Muhammed because "people are not supposed to respect islamic rules." and now this time you call me a nazi. <sigh> I guess perhaps I see these as insults and direct signs of disrespect. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you think nazis are great and Islamic rights should be ignored on the basis of them being Islamic as opposed to on the merit of what is being suggested.

My post was an attempt to see your side of the argument. If you're not going to do the same, then fine. This is what it's like arguing with a child. I state that I see your side, but...

You still haven't answered where YOU would draw the lines. Or am I supposed to expect you to read my mind as to what's allowed and what's not, because I already can see that isn't going to work. We have many times stated no nudity, then there was a big brouhaha that everyone is clearly aware of, and then there's a topless photo in here. Please show me, oh enlightened one where to draw the lines so that even an infant as well as you, can understand.

You have never been threatened with anything directly. You were warned that further postings of nudity would result in being banned. Quit trying to paint us as nazis and try to CONSIDER WHERE WE MIGHT BE COMING FROM. Instead of just posting laundry lists of complaints. If you'd rather spend your time continuing to regress deeper into childhood then that's up to you, but I won't address you any more and I further warn you that if you regress much further back in time you may be unborn.


"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."



Are you trying to discredit me or to give a constructive answer here?
I think you are the one who is disrespectful. This is because you know that I am right.

You don't read my posts - I never said you were a racist. I just think that everyone shouldn't suffer from the fact that 1% of the forum thinks that Venus of Milo is offensive.

You want me to draw the lines. OK. I think pornography should be banned. It doesn't necessarily mean tits or who knows what - it is also a matter of context. Venus of Milo = OK. Jenna Jameson showing her tits = not ok. As I said before, blindly following rules leads nowhere.

You don't really read my posts. Please stop attacking me personally.


I will show you fear in a handful of dust

Edited by - Monsieur on 04/13/2006 09:44:19
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =

Canada
11513 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:47:31  Show Profile  Visit Cult_Of_Frank's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thank-you BLT. Now, I think we can agree that it got carried away by moving into art, but the question of art in this instance was more intended as an act of disrespect than anything else. Perhaps I lost my temper at seeing the disrespect perpetrated to Tre in particular, and then all this ridiculous rebelling against her changing it to a link. Really. Changed it to a link and you'd think she'd destroyed the fabric of the internet.

If you're willing to be reasonable, then I am willing to allow (as we always have) reasonable non-lewd non-sexual paintings (determination of what is appropriate or not at our sole discretion but I ask you to consider it yourself before you post as well) of the type that cassandra was booted for posting and remig had removed by me (not Tre).

But this is not in response to your childishness, Monsieur. It's in response to the fact that I don't think I am able to let you specifically see that the issue was about this 'rebellion' against those running the site, but I see no such difficulty having it understood among the others. I don't wish to punish them for you being a stubborn.


"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1734 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:55:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with Monsieur on certain points. Locking, banning or delete, or even edit posts for the sake of forum members isn't a good thing.
It's quite normal that this place should respect Frank Black's ethics, I believe he wouldn't like to see a place devoted to him linking pornographic stuff or worse. What I don't agree with it's the fact that almost every one must feel obliged to follow and apply rules they don't believe in. You've already lost the war in your work life (i.e. BLT's post), don't lose it on personal life. This kind of behaviour, applying rules wihtout distinction, is what the moralists and fascists want you to do.
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-

USA
5127 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:57:50  Show Profile  Visit Broken Face's Homepage  Reply with Quote
BLT's example is exactly something i was speaking of. My desk faces a wall, no one can see my computer, but that is not the case for all. I don't weigh issues in forum member a vs. forum member b, but if BLT was to lose his raise over a photo, i think that is worse than having you click a link to see it. End of story.

-Brian
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1688 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  09:58:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are the one who is being childish Dean. In fact, you are taking the fight personally, and now, because you have to admit I am right, you are saying "I'm not doing this because of you".

I never posted an offensive picture here.

I just reacted because you come into a clearly French thread and ban something that is perfectly accepted in our society. It wasn't posted in the "sexy women" context or anything - it was posted in a clear French political context.

You give me the impression of having nothing better to do than to look at people to see if they posted a piece of breast somewhere.

Lastly, what you think deep inside of you doesn't matter here. My judgement is based on your actions.

PS : I really censored myself a number of times when I was about to post a picture and then thought how it would be offensive. And now you're saying this isn't enough?


I will show you fear in a handful of dust

Edited by - Monsieur on 04/13/2006 10:01:39
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <

4698 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:01:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote



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remig
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1734 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:02:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My brother is a what you called a retarded. Thank you very much.

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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-

France
2715 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:03:32  Show Profile  Visit Frog in the Sand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur
What you are saying is that we are probably right to disagree, but those are the rules.

People who think there are clear lines that make it unnecessary to use their brains are called nazis.



Je comprends le fond de ta pensée, Ad, mais là je crois que tu devrais t'enfiler un suppo et filer au lit...

-----
"The following tale of me is true. And by true, I mean false. It's all lies. But they're entertaining lies. And in the end, isn't that the real truth? The answer is: No." (The Simpson Files)
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-

USA
5127 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:04:21  Show Profile  Visit Broken Face's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Please don't turn this into a French Vs. Canada/US thing - this is a very simple issue. By signing up for the forum, you agree to certain conditions. You are supporting something that broke one of those conditions. Period, end of story. So what if you have to CLICK ON A LINK TO SEE AN IMAGE? Is this really that terrible? Why can no one just answer that - does it really make you that mad that there is a small, less than 5 second pause before you can see some titties?

-Brian

Edited by - Broken Face on 04/13/2006 10:05:43
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1734 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:05:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, i mean it's not that hard. I can do that.
But I wish I hadn't. And you hadn't toO.

Edited by - remig on 04/13/2006 10:06:18
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Fartbone
- FB Fan -

USA
171 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:05:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know that I'm laughing at all of you right? RIGHT?!


Horale Cabrones
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =

Canada
11513 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:05:47  Show Profile  Visit Cult_Of_Frank's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Monsieur, take it how you want. I don't care what you think. I just want it clear I'm happy with the majority of this thread's restraint and I face the decision of continuing to argue with you and not addressing the problem or addressing it. I am taking it personally, because you are making a personal argument instead of a philosophical one. I tried to make a philosophical one and you said that I was being a nazi. I still tried to respond intellectually.

I futher could care less about 'your judgements'.

You still seem unable to understand that each thread does not have its own rules. This server, this site has rules. They apply whether it's a French thread or an English one. They're there to protect people who might accidentally stumble on nudity in a thread at a bad time. If you don't like them, leave. Period. I don't understand why you'd insist on staying when you're so clearly being oppressed and unable to express yourself. And I don't care. I'm not discussing with you anymore for the same reason I don't get into protracted conversations with walls.


"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-

USA
5127 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:10:21  Show Profile  Visit Broken Face's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by remig

No, i mean it's not that hard. I can do that.
But I wish I hadn't. And you hadn't toO.



Sorry Remi, i don't understand that last part. You wished you hadn't what?

-Brian
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1688 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:12:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face

Please don't turn this into a French Vs. Canada/US thing - this is a very simple issue. By signing up for the forum, you agree to certain conditions. You are supporting something that broke one of those conditions. Period, end of story. So what if you have to CLICK ON A LINK TO SEE AN IMAGE? Is this really that terrible? Why can no one just answer that - does it really make you that made that there is a small, less than 5 second pause before you can see some titties?

-Brian




It isn't just about a link Brian (I personally don't care about this picture), but what we feel here is that there is pressure on us to post what you want. We are no longer tolerating this because it will never end.

As for the conditions you are talking about, the great majority of people strongly disagree and were never actually asked their opinion.

Even if you agreed with these rules, there is certainly a more intelligent way of understanding them. We are very far from what happened with Dave Noisy here.

Espace Francophone has nothing to do with the "Beautiful women" thread. In fact, you are being much more conservative than Dave.


I will show you fear in a handful of dust
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1688 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:14:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank

Monsieur, take it how you want. I don't care what you think. I just want it clear I'm happy with the majority of this thread's restraint and I face the decision of continuing to argue with you and not addressing the problem or addressing it. I am taking it personally, because you are making a personal argument instead of a philosophical one. I tried to make a philosophical one and you said that I was being a nazi. I still tried to respond intellectually.

I futher could care less about 'your judgements'.

You still seem to understand that each thread does not have its own rules. This server, this site has rules. To protect people who might accidentally stumble on nudity in a thread at a bad time. If you don't like them, leave. Period. I don't understand why you'd insist on staying when you're so clearly being oppressed and unable to express yourself. And I don't care. I'm not discussing with you anymore for the same reason I don't get into protracted conversations with walls.


"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."



I can't believe you just said that, Dean. What's wrong with you?

You are very offensive here. I never said anything like that to you.


I will show you fear in a handful of dust

Edited by - Monsieur on 04/13/2006 10:15:55
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *

France
1734 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:15:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry, I mean, I wish I could post a picture instead of a link, and I wish you didn't have to make me post a link.
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Steak n Sabre
* Dog in the Sand *

Uzbekistan
1013 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:17:08  Show Profile  Visit Steak n Sabre's Homepage  Reply with Quote
WTF, Some folks just don't get it.


The Cult of Frank : Gimme Gimme Gimme...I Need Some More
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-

USA
5127 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2006 :  10:21:12  Show Profile  Visit Broken Face's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Adnan, i am actually being more libertarian than conservative. Post whatever you want, just make sure to link it. Choose your own poison, just don't let it interfere with what i do. If that makes me conservative, so be it for now. I have not cursed, i have not said anything negative to anyone else. But it is clear that my opinions don't count for much. So i'm done with this thread, and with anyone that feels that i've been out of line. I'm sorry for those who got dragged into this.

-Brian
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