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Adam
= Cult of Ray =
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 10/19/2004 : 08:42:12
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I am coming in late on most of this post, but I have a couple of questions. First, If the artist and producer did not want the album leaked early, how and why did it get leaked? What happened to the source? If these songs are not the finished versions, they are gonna become collector editions for the uber fans. Secondly, I am naive about the music industry, so I don't have anything to ad about the label debate, but I do have to say that WE are FB marketing department as well. WE should not be taken lightly as marketing tools. How many people here will just start rabling on to people about FB and his music to others. I know I do.
Free the Heel! |
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Zsolt G.
- FB Fan -
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 08:48:01
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This is gonna get ugly. Anyway, here's a slapdash electronic presskit for Honeycomb culled exclusively from forum comments.
"Wow! sounds like we're in for an incredible treat, can't wait..."
"I can't wait to hear the new recordings Frank just laid down."
"i dont' see why he isn't bigger with the albums he already has, so i'll have to see for myself what happens with this one."
"this sounds very promising"
"I am really loving Honeycomb. Incredible songs and recording."
"can say without a moment's hesitation that this is some of the best MUSIC, HANDS DOWN that I have heard in a long time. It is eminently listenable, stuck-in-your-head, stay-in-rotation-on-the-cd-player-for-a- month music."
"more or less all songs from honeycomb are really very, very good. i loved them instantly"
"I am only saying good things about this album, not that I have anything bad to say."
"I love it. I heard Frank sing a few of the songs in SF in April - I've been waiting ever since to hear the recorded versions. I've listened to every song and there is not one I dont like."
"Surprising, to say the least. But subtle and beautiful, indeed.
i love it"
"I feel a gigantic amount of guilt for downloading this but I'd pay for it right now if I could. Someone take my freaking money already so I can get this monkey off my back."
"This album has a lot of great songs. Pretty much every song is wonderful."
"i love everything he releases. and I always will."
"can't wait to put this album on my shelf. Loving it!"
"I just peed my pants" |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 08:49:45
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I'm not proud to admit that the last comment was written by me.
Denis
"I believe in your perfect face..." |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 08:57:40
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Let me remind you all that WE give our money to the record companies and Jontiven RECEIVES money from them.
Jontiven started posting on this forum when he got personally (financially) involved in FB's work. We were here before.
Our relation to FBs work is not professional like his.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Adam
= Cult of Ray =
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 09:17:31
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That is a good point, Monsieur. And a very interesting one.
Free the Heel! |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 09:20:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Zsolt G.
"Surprising, to say the least. But subtle and beautiful, indeed."
Frog in the Sand, FB-men Quarterly, DaveDean Publishing, 10/01/04.
Always mention your source, ZG. |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 09:23:29
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"My mother enjoys listening to Honeycomb while washing the dishes. A must have."
Monsieur, Dishes Quarterly
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 10:18:21
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"Honeycomb made me see the light. Indispensable as the Bible. Every home should have a copy of it."
MunChienAndalusia, Chinese Baptist Church of Orange County Times
 join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 10:40:40
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Frog, I believe that you mean Double-D Publishing (and both D's are for Dean). :)
"Finally, an album I can give to my mom without a warning about swears on this song or that"
"The artist who has done is all has done it again - a new sound for old fans and new fans for an old band"
"The sucessor to Show Me Your Tears, Black's first attempt at a more straightforward album, Honeycomb succeeds in all the ways that Show Me Your Tears did and then takes those humble beginnings and grows them into a spiritual adventure and resolution that will have you smiling like a big dumb idiot while wiping away tears and writing exceedingly long, run-on sentences to others about this phenomena."
 "Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 11:29:02
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 11:41:32
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" After forming the legendary Pixies, disbanding them and reuniting them last year,[Pixies Bio\Discography] here is the new solo album by Frank Black.[...]Nice try but Mr Black doesn't even come close to the grandeur of "Dooolittle""
Pitchfork 24/03/2005
join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
653 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 13:12:59
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For whatever it's worth (and it is not my intention to stir up any more angst than may already exist over this topic), here's my take on this ENTIRE brouhaha.
For everyone who has already heard the rough and/or incomplete assemblage of "Honeycomb" tracks, set aside the pleasure that you have received from them - and the sense of excitement you had upon first acquring the recordings.
Forget about it. Pretend it never happened.
Now, take a look at the big picture here.
Assuming we accept the notion that this leak was not sanctioned for purposes of generating internet buzz about its subsequent official release, the reality is that a lot of hard work, creativity, hopes and dreams were dashed when this happened.
That's because part of the beauty of promoting and celebrating this record was intrinsically locked into the notion of springing it on the fans and the general public alike.
I know some of you may choose not to believe this, but that's probably because most of you have never dealt with the realities of either the recording industry or the act of woodshedding on something which you feel could possibly help you find a greater/new and different audience for your art.
True, we had some nods to the whole "Nashville Numbers System" thing months ago from Frank himself, and a few tips on the backing musicians' professional lineage, but for the most part, the whole tone, mood and – seemingly – autobiographical nature of some of the songs themselves remained under wraps.
All of these things are angles for any label to exploit during the 4 to 6 month schedule of active promotion this record would likely receive.
Now, most of that is out of the bag, and all that remains as a surprise for Frank's base are the final, more fully realized mixes, the final sequencing, and now, the possibility of an ancillary release that will hopefully serve to replace the aura of mystery that has been negated by this leaked version.
With that in mind, I'd like to offer that Mr. Tiven has done what I think is a very admirable job at trying to not only run damage control on this situation, but to try to turn lemons into lemonade by trying to nudge people towards his most recent relatively high-profile work, the Ellis Hooks album, while offering a play by play on the additional Nashville sessions.
He certainly didn't have to do either, and while I realize many of you feel he was being condescending in equating information given with units sold, you should know that he likely stood to make little if any significant amount of money from the sale of those discs, regardless of his role as producer.
It was more about trying to funnel some obvioulsy loyal indie music fans toward a developing artist who is already operating in a musical vein that Frank himself is now flirting with more earnestly. The best thing that can come of this is that perhaps a handful of permanent Hooks fans are born.
That's clearly better for the artist than Jon Tiven.
As far as the debate over whether or not record label heads would be swayed by negative comments of the sort that have been posted so far - while I would have to agree that little of what has been said would seem to be the kind of stuff that would sour a deal, the simple truth (as Jon is FAR too aware) is that most record label guys are followers and not leaders.
They are shallow dolts who are more concerned with being forced back onto the merry-go-round of job hunting and label-hopping than they are at finding the next moderately-popular adult-oriented quirky alternative roots-rock sci-fi songwriter who's not into taking direction from guys in suits who don't know shit about Arthur Alexander or Larry Norman, Jr.
So, yes, believe it or not, there are tons of simpletons who are desperately looking for a way to dodge the FB bullet by passing on a record that doesn't sound a goddamn thing like the Pixies, and they will look for any excuse they can find to justify that maneuver.
And, yes, it is entirely possible that some silly, offhanded comment on a messageboard is what tips the scales for them.
Does that mean that everyone on this site should only speak of roses and buttercups when referring to Frank and his output? Of course not.
But it does mean that when speaking to someone who is INTIMATELY involved with the creation of Frank's work – and I think, demonstrably not out of a desire for the filthy lucre – that members of this board should consider his viewpoints very carefully before being so quick to pounce on him.
As far as the notion of Jon Tiven only joining this online community "now that he has a financial stake in Frank's work" goes, I find that to be highly insulting.
Jon's been working with Frank since the mid 1990s. They are obviously close and respect each others' talents immensely.
Jon has surely been aware of this site probably since its inception, and I believe he even alluded to lurking here in one of his early posts.
Frank financed this record on his own. The studio time's been paid for. The players are likeley already compensated. Is there still the potential for Jon to get points off the final sales tally?
Probably.
Does that mean that he's only looking out for number one?
Of course not.
Jon is a key component in the success or failure of the next two FB albums. Both in a financial sense and in a critical sense.
Despite the fact that his name will be smaller on the records, and probably not on posters for the eventual live tour of material from these sessions, he is (arguably) just as invested in this thing as Frank himself is.
I think once people on the boards stop for a minute and realize that the leak of this album is NOT a positive thing for anyone (except those of us that get giddy over glimpses into the inner workings of Frank Black's albums), they'll better appreciate the motivations of Jon Tiven.
I for one have truly enjoyed the inside scoops he has afforded us.
His concern over the ultimate fate of both of these efforts is understandable and palpable. Cut him some slack.
Enjoy the rough mixes for what they are. Try to sample some Ellis Hooks tracks online.
Why not? It's a reasonable request. If you like it, and it seems like something you might buy anyway, purchase it with the added knowledge that you've helped to make the day of the cat who's busting his ass on both of the next two FB albums.
But above all, try and respect everyone's viewpoints, and don't be so quick to look for ulterior motives where none exist.
Just my two cents.
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 13:33:12
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Well said, Jim.
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 13:45:15
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"But above all, try and respect everyone's viewpoints, and don't be so quick to look for ulterior motives where none exist."
My main complaint is that I don't think we've been given much respect from Jon Tiven from the very beginning. He has lectured and talked down to us like we're children that have to jump through his hoops to receive his prized information. I enjoyed his original posts, but I also demand to be treated like an adult who his free to voice his own opinion. I haven't even heard Honeycomb (and won't until it's out) but frankly I'm disappointed that there has been much defense by the moderators of floop's and brokenface's rights to voice their reasonable, uninflammatory opinions. If having fans stating their opinions about Honeycomb is such a dangerous thing for the success of the album and Frank's career (which I don't believe) then maybe Jon Tiven shouldn't have started this thread. Once he opened the can of worms he shouldn't try to suppress the rights of other people to state their opinions. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 14:07:22
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Why shouldn't they be allowed to express their opinions if they are not inflammatory? I don't know that I explicitly defended them or Jon, I'm just trying to keep people reasonable and civil. You will recall that I did say that it felt like we were being treated as children and I've also said that we needn't react to this with childishness as well. This was not targetted at Floop, but was more of a preemptive, "let it go" to avoid the sort of ridiculous turmoil that has now engulfed this thread.
Jon comes by here and gives us some news of the recording sessions, which is of little/no benefit to him. In exchange, there are a few lines in each message about moral obligations and picking up a copy of Ellis Hooks' discs. Big fucking deal. Skip over them if you must - you still get to read his posts.
Brian came on here and posted about what he thought the odds are of Frank Black ever achieving the kind of success Jon was predicting, saying nothing of Honeycomb, nor really of FB (obviously we're all FB fans here), but only about the record industry and how lame people can be. Jon overreacted, taking this as a direct attack against Honeycomb. Brian deleted his posts, in my opinion unnecessarily. I certainly never asked him to and would've told him to leave them if he'd asked. But I didn't, and, for the record, Jon didn't - he just said that there may be consequences unconsidered. But despite this, Brian deleted is it anyway, simply out of respect and probably more than a little frustration.
In the end, this is a series of misunderstandings coupled with a lack of tolerance and people in apparent need of something to get worked up over. If we can respect and try to understand where each other are coming from, then maybe this thread would've turned out much differently. Instead, we get people starting 'favourite asshole' threads, chiding people for expressing their opinions, and now it's somehow my fault for asking people to respect and understand each other?
Jon's trying (perhaps misguidedly) to do his job and protect/promote Frank's interests. I'm trying to keep the peace and everyone happy (and obviously failing at that). And people here are just expressing their opinions.
Let's take three deep breaths. With me now...
one
two
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three
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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dayanara
* Dog in the Sand *
Australia
1811 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 14:13:36
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| Come on everybody - group hug! |
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oddball
- FB Fan -
Germany
242 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 14:28:03
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..and while hugging, let's not forget that there are likely TWO Frank Black albums coming our way in 2005!!!
Erik |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 14:45:09
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OK, I apologize, by my message I was trying to strike back, after a quite insulting message by Jontiven.
Brian is a very nice person on the forum, and we all know the fact that the mainstream music that is played on the radio stations is wortheless. Not only was Jontiven wrong when he said that we should all be optimistic about the commercial success of Honeycomb (how can you ask that?) but he did it in a very unpleasant way, and many other persons on this forum had the very same reaction as myself. Brian's reaction was quite self depreciating, and instead of releasing his pressure, Jontiven became even more violent, trying to prove him his misunderstanding of the music industry and to humiliate him. I deeply hate people who humiliate others, especially when they use their authority - in this case, we are on a FB forum, so it is easy for Jontiven to misuse this power on the members.
We all have jobs, families, lives, whatever. Music is your job, not mine. Music is good vibrations for me. I don't care about record companies. I like Frank Black, and I don't know much about Charles. So your tricks won't work on me. I don't care about how long you've been working with Frank Black. You are not there for people like us, you are there because of people like us. Especially when it comes to artists like FB, with a small but faithful audience. Perhaps you should try and respect the core fans, before trying to reach a wider audience.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 14:56:34
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Dean, I'm sorry I included that line about the moderators. You do a great job. I re-read your comments in this thread and you did give more even-handed responses than I original read. I understand not wanting to call out Jon Tiven for his behavior but you did place some of the "blame" on him. However, I'm not sure he read them that way.
Go Red Sox! |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:05:19
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quote:
So those of you who want to postulate about the possibility of Frank Black reaching a wider audience---or not---I suggest you do it over the telephone in confidence.
Do you realize what you said here?
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:08:08
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That's alright, I appreciate that you looked into it instead of just writing off my response.
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:08:41
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One more thing, Jon, did it ever occur to you that the people on the forum are also your clients?
Brian deserves just as much respect as Frank Black or Jontiven on this forum!
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
Edited by - Monsieur on 10/19/2004 15:10:06 |
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Jontiven
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:30:01
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| Elvis has left the building. |
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prozacrat
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1186 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:31:44
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| Thank you, Jon. |
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LBF1976
= Cult of Ray =
269 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:37:47
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My main interest in Frank Black is his Music.
Inside, priviledged information is interesting and all, but I really care about when the CDs will be released, and getting my copy.
I personally am not uber-interested in knowing all the special details, but that's me, other people love getting the inside info, just a personal difference.
But this whole fued, and mass deletion of posts, and members banishing themselves from the forum, seems kinda 1st grade to me.
But as I said before, I jsut want to hear the music.
Just my little worthless opinion that no one listens to anyway...
Floops quesedillas zijn te vergelijken met het likken van fatsige Albert's aars nadat hij een fles laxeermiddel heeft leeggedronken. |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:40:33
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this is crazy... i tried to write exactly what i mean by this, but i can't.
wow. |
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Hatchetman
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:42:15
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This is what I REALLY hate about forums......
Ade
As the air conditioner hummed.... |
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bumblebeeboy2
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2638 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:43:04
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shame jon has decided to remove all his posts and replace them with 'bye' - which must have taken bloody ages! (i assume?!)
but oh well, many thanks jon if you're still reading, has been a real eye opener, and i look forward to buying the cd (or cd's!) when released! keep up the good work and please keep us updated if at all poss!
The Monkey Helper has arrived http://www.monkeyhelper.co.uk (that is my band) |
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Hatchetman
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:46:15
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Yeah thanks Jon, It was great while it lasted.
Ade
As the air conditioner hummed.... |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:47:46
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yes, thank you.
tsh, only in this day and age... |
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Zsolt G.
- FB Fan -
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:48:02
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Well look what you guys have done. We finally have a FB insider and you guys chase him off! Remember the time when Frank came by and the first three pages was him trying to convince everybody it was him. Regardless, thanks for hanging out Jon, we're a obnoxious crowd, but we mean well! Best of luck. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 15:49:47
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Aah. At least Jon Tiven got a kitty.
Now everybody's happy!
"You ever seen a man say goodbye to a shoe?"
"Yes, once..." |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 16:01:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zsolt G.
Well look what you guys have done. We finally have a FB insider and you guys chase him off! Remember the time when Frank came by and the first three pages was him trying to convince everybody it was him. Regardless, thanks for hanging out Jon, we're a obnoxious crowd, but we mean well! Best of luck.
This is exactly the kind of reaction he wants to obtain. It reminds me of those spoiled chidren who bring their ball to play but take it away when they are losing.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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whoreatthedoor
> Teenager of the Year <
Spain
2873 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 16:31:25
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Just to give my support to Monsieur, even when it isn't a popular reaction here.
But calm down, boy, and undo your tie knot
one
two
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three
FFFFFFFUUUUUUU!!!! That's better
"ˇˇˇBien!!!, dame el ritmo. Así es mejor" - Jonathan Richman |
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Jontiven
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 16:34:19
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| adieu |
Edited by - Jontiven on 10/20/2004 09:14:39 |
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Elvis Has Left the Building
Topic Locked
