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fallus
- FB Fan -
Belgium
94 Posts |
 Posted - 12/20/2002 : 02:27:54
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I have written a song, where I have two guitar parts (rhythm and lead). Both are written to be played with an electric guitar and some distortion (they just sound better that way). But when I record them, it just sounds too crowded. I play both parts with the same guitar and the same distortion pedal, so it just sounds like one instrument playing a lot of noise.
Has anyone got tips on how to seperate the two parts, so you can hear both of them individually? Maybe some panning, or EQing or something? Any effects I should use?
I also have a bassguitar playing in the background as well (I've been playing bass for years and just started learning electric guitar two weeks ago), and a drum track (drumbox, I can't record live drums yet). A friend of mine is supposed to add some piano or keyboards as well, but I'm afraid this song will really become too crowded. How can I stop this from happening?
Maybe this isn't a recording problem, maybe the problem is my songwriting... the two guitar parts both sound cool, but when I play them together, it's just a mess.
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mdisanto
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1140 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 03:25:20
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do you have the one guitar panned to the left and one panned to the right? that will fix it every time.
-miked |
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fallus
- FB Fan -
Belgium
94 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 04:57:14
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is it a good thing to pan the rhythm guitar hard left and the lead guitar hard right? I'll try it when I get home...
This is not a signature. |
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zanni67
= Bio Elf =
643 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 05:21:39
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Can't wait to hear how this turns out! This is like a class in itself, I'm new at all of this stuff too so I love reading all of the advice. Thanks Miked, and good luck Fallus! Be sure to come back and let us know what happens! I'm learning bass guitar right now. Any tips??
Zan
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fallus
- FB Fan -
Belgium
94 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 06:18:01
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Tips? Read the instructions from this page : http://www.harmony-central.com/Bass/Lessons/
that's how I learned it... especially the bass line cunstruction tutorials. The other ones are for specific techniques that you may or may not want to learn... Slapping is Flea / Les Claypool style playing (hitting the strings with your thumb and pulling them with your index-finger), and tapping, well, I don't find that very usefull at all and never bothered to learn how to do it properly.
Another tip : practise a lot, even if your fingers hurt and get all swollen. It's worth it. Motivation, practice and creativity are good substitutes for talent (I myself am not very musically gifted, but have been making music for a long time now and I do like my results sometimes).
If the song turns out good enough, I might post it...
This is not a signature. |
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zanni67
= Bio Elf =
643 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 06:48:00
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Hey, thanks Fallus, I'll have to check it out. Yes, I know practice is crutial. I'm trying as hard as I can. Thanks again, appreciate the response!
Zan
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 06:52:55
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Preferably - use two different guitars.
Use different amounts of distortion for the guitars - too much distortion kills the punch. If you must use plenty fuzz - pan and let the bass do the punching.In rock - you must punch.
An old trick - add an accoustic guitar and place it way back in the mix - it will add depth and punch - especially since too much distortion will kill the "strokes?" (i don't know what it's called in english - when you "hit" the strings). Accoustic guitar with a little overdrive may also sound great.
What recording equipment do you use? If you record to a pc/mac - use some (not much) EQ and use it differently for the two guitars- waves plugins sound great. |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 07:00:27
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Further;
You don't have to the pan them hard either way - listen to the mix WITHOUT headphones and judge when enough is enough (make sure your speakers are placed so that you can actually hear how the instruments are placed in the mix). If possible, you can automate the lead panning to the centre when it's supposed to in the front of the mix. To do this - you may also want to use a compressor.
If the instruments share to many similar frequencies they will sound crowded. Eq'ing, compressing and panning may help you place them better in the mix. |
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fallus
- FB Fan -
Belgium
94 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 07:29:12
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I use an Akai DPS-12 to record. I put my guitar trough a cheap Zoom fx-box with an amp simulator, I know this isn't the same as the real thing but hey, I don't even have a guitar amp, only my bass amp... This fx-box has got a (crap) compressor as well, so I'll try using it... Thanks for the tips!
This is not a signature. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 09:33:31
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Aye, try to EQ the two guitars differently, and play with the panning. Compressing one of them should help, tho the overdrive/distortion is prolly compressing it tons.
I think it's common to have the rhythm in the middle, and the lead off to one side, a bit or totally, but it's always dependent on the song and what you want it to sound like.
Don't forget to play with the levels too, maybe you can turn down the rhythm a bit.. |
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fallus
- FB Fan -
Belgium
94 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 11:27:18
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Hm, if you have the rhythm in the middle, and, for instance, the lead on the right, wouldn't that make the left kind of empty? I think the drums should be in the middle and the bass ass well... Ow, I forgot, I will also have a piano, so I could put that more to the left...
This is not a signature. |
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lofiscifi
- FB Fan -
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 11:30:54
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you could also try putting one (or both) of the guitars in stereo by splitting the track using a very short delay...
- lofiscifi |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 16:30:14
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Actaully, delay on the lead might differentiate them a bit more.
fallus - no - if the rhythm is in the middle, it's split between the left and right perfectly. So technically rhythm is on the left, and rhythm and lead on the right (or whatever..) |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2002 : 00:27:59
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EQ and volume, your two best friends. No need to pan em hard either way...maybe 25% in opposite directions. Getting a good distorted guitar sound can be a real bitch. Since you're going direct, you're at the mercy of EQing the hell out of it (rather than properly positioning a mic in front of an amp).
Whenever I have two guitar tracks I usually pan them a little bit to the left and right. I always try to replicate aurally how I mentally see the music...I see guitar left and right, bass in the middle, vocals in the middle (unless you have stereo, which i never bother with) and drums stereo. Mixing is an art which isn't always the easiest to perfect. |
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johndietzel
= Cult of Ray =
Burkina Faso (Upper Volta)
464 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2002 : 00:38:52
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Excuse my naive interjection, please. What does "punch" refer to exactly? I ask this because it is a term I have actually seen in some commands for PC apps I have used. Also, EQ'ing mean applying an equalizer to it or is it more than that? Also, I have heard Dave mention "hotter levels" for recording. What ees zees? Thanks
----------------------
"Liam Neeson backwards is broken English empty post office box." |
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mdisanto
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1140 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2002 : 07:48:46
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i dont know i kinda have to disagree with you slightly el barto. i mean slight panning would be fine if you dont have a lot going on, but when you already have bassdrum, snare, bass, and vocals taking up the center. cramming guitar in doesnt always work. using panning (more specifically a harder panning at like 60 or above) made the single biggest difference in my recordings. it spreads out the song on the speakers making it sound more wide i guess you could say. i mean you dont have to 100% hard pan every time, but i usually try to make it symmetrical so if i have a guitar at -60, ill dub another track of that guitar or something related to it (higher capo version) at +60. just the way i like it, may not work for you guys.
-miked |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2002 : 10:25:25
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I can see what you're saying, but panning, in my opinion, isn't really meant to bring things out of being crammed in the mix. They shouldn't be crammed in the first place. If they're EQ'd properly so that everything is aurally pleasing, then panning is used to just create a more stereo, more full sound. I always EQ in mono and then pan as needed. Creating a stereo image should be done in such a way as to not fatigue the ears. If you have a screaming guitar in the left and a tinny vocal in the right, you'll kill someone. You gotta balance out the sound. Having stereo drums helps, so there's no need to center them. Listen to FB&TC, they have stereo drums. I also don't believe in hard panning either, unless I have two guitar tracks playing the exact same thing. That adds for a beefier sound without any consequences because you have the same thing happening in both ears. Since it's not just a facsimile (you're not copying the left to the right), there are very tiny differences that gives it a fuller stereo sound. If I were to copy the left track to the right and pan em hard left and right, that'd accomplish the same thing mono does.
I think early recordings really abused the whole stereo concept. Listen to "Revolver" with headphones. Those guys have vocals and bass in the right ear and drums and guitar in the left. Now that's stereo gone wrong. |
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mdisanto
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1140 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2002 : 11:26:34
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yah i noticed that in revolver theres a lot of wierd panning going on
-miked |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2002 : 12:02:41
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Hmm..if i remember correctly, that album was one of the first 'stereo' albums, but of course they were still recording with mono-tape, so when they mixed it, they just stuck one track on the left, and another on the right..
That's prolly not right, but it's something like that..
As for JD's question about punch.. I think it's in reference to sounds that kinda 'hit' you.
Like a snare drum is almost all punch. Bam.
Getting musical instrument to sound 'punchy' can be a real trick. Bass is easier since it's really synced with the kick drum, but getting a guitar to jump out and kick you between the legs is pretty cool..
I smoked a lot of crack this morning, so if none of this makes sense, that's why.
=P |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2002 : 18:01:04
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Another definition for punch in the recording world is when you "punch in" to and start recording. Like...you'll punch in at a certain spot in the song and do an overdub.
EQing = Equalizing..boosting and cutting certain frequencies to get the sound you want
Hot levels = when your levels are getting into the red. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. In analog recording a lot of times the engineer would saturate the tape with the bass guitar to get a really good sound. Perhaps same with the snare and the bass drum. |
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carsonwerner
= Cult of Ray =
USA
254 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2002 : 21:07:49
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In all my experience hard panning or almost hard panning can lead to some good sounds, under 50 is almost not worth doing. Of course theres many things where you might want to do slight panning but for most things slight pan doesn't do much. Although that is from the home recording stand point. Also to avoid crowding make sure you get different textures, change the distortion settings, mic placement, etc.
As far as those beatles records, I believe I read that they weren't intended to be stereo releases at first, so when they mixed them they just seperated the two tracks all the way.
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2002 : 22:05:37
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A good starting point with guitars is to cut the really low frequencies. Cut atleast 60 Hz and below and keep cutting higher and higher until it bugs you. I usually end up cutting everything below 110 Hz. This will clean up the sound by removing the amp and effect box rumble from the bottom.
To get the two guitar sounds to fit, try a boosting the hi-mids on the solo guitar (around 2K - 4K) and cutting them on the rhythm track. You can even just cut the hi-mids on the rhythm track during the solo and then put them back when the solo isn't playing so your rhythm track is more full sounding.
Another trick to get solos to pop out is by putting a subtle panning effect on it like an auto pan or chorus. Don't spread it out too much, just have it panning between about 30 and -30 back and forth. The shifting draws you attention to it.
One last thing: if you're using a decent reverb, play with the pre-delay. If you have a small pre-delay it makes things seem far away, but a long pre-delay will make something seem closer. It's like someone is singing close to you in a large room, you hear their dry voice and then a split second later you hear the reflections.
www.mp3.com/clootie |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2002 : 00:32:48
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Wow.. A4C knows what he's talking about. =)
I'm just starting to get comfortable playing with the EQ now...definately makes a BIG difference..i'm really surprised my stuff sounds as good as it does without doing anything like this to it..
I believe another good general tip when working with the EQ is to try and avoid boosting a frequency.. If you can get the same effect by dropping other levels, go for it.
This isn't a rule of course, but a good guideline..there will always be instances where you'll wanna boost of course. |
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johndietzel
= Cult of Ray =
Burkina Faso (Upper Volta)
464 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2002 : 00:58:36
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Thanks for your specific help, Mike D, C-Wern, Barto, Dave N, A4C, Ivan. Seriously. This is invaluable experience-based input.
Oh yeah, and are there any experience-based "must have" plugins for computer-based recording you guys can suggest?
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"Liam Neeson backwards is broken English empty post office box." |
Edited by - johndietzel on 12/23/2002 01:03:54 |
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parker_airspace
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
63 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2002 : 03:27:56
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depends what yer recording on and what pedals you use but experimentation is the best way.......can give any amount of advice you need......just mail me.... chrislawry@hotmail.com
good luck
- was smashed head on by a giant truck :( - Chris |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2002 : 10:55:08
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Good plugins;
anything by WAVES. Probably the most respected manufacturer providing plugins "outside" Pro-Tools (here comes my english again). If you get a hold of their plugins you'll have everything you need for standard, quality audiowork, including mastering. They are truly expensive though. If you ask/mail someone they might be able to help you out...
Timeworks and the guys behind Ohmboyz have cool stuff that works great with guitars.
There's a bunch of freeware vst plugins that sound rather good. However, most of them are most suited for experimental sounds. For good standard effects (eq,compressors) - waves is unbeatable.
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2002 : 10:59:43
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| By the way; regardless of the mix - revolver is the beatles best album - by far - and "and your bird can sing" the most underappreciated. Amen. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2002 : 11:57:10
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Learn about VSTi's - they'll change your world forever. (They're 'virtual' instruments, basically software synths that integrate perfectly with programs like Cubase.. Amazing sounds, and sample-accurate automation, not too shabby.)
HALion, Absynth and Lounge Lizard are my favs.. Plex is sneaking in there too tho..
Waves stuff is the bomb, no recording set-up should be without.
The two plugs i've been using the most and am most impressed with:
* PSP Vintage Warmer - the thing i do before i Ultra-maximize..does very nice stuff
* TC Native Reverb - prolly the best sounding reverb for the small amount of CPU it eats |
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mdisanto
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1140 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2002 : 13:14:45
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yah absynth is awesome
-miked |
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mdisanto
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1140 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2002 : 08:31:09
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dave, is there a program like absynth thats for more realistic or traditional keyboard sounds, like brass and piano? absynth doesnt exactly excel in that area. thanks
-miked |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2002 : 09:30:24
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Use HALion (it's just a sampler) and find a sample-set to match your needs.. HAL comes with a good piano, percussion and various other sets, or Steinberg's The Grand is a pretty amazing sounding piano. They've also just release a strings set. Garrantan (sp) has a really amazing orchestra sound-set.
alt.binaries.sound.samples (and a.b.s.s.music) is a good place to find some of this stuff.. ;) |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2002 : 20:37:48
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| how about a program that improves my guitar playing? or changes my voice to be perfectly on key? fucking digital phony magic! |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 04:30:38
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El Barto - try antares auto tune...
Reaktor is THE virtual instrument - both as synthsource for traditional and experimental sounds, as a sampler - AND - it works great as fx processor. If you buy only one VSTI - buy no other. Kontakt is a great alternative to Halion, and absynth is fun too. In fact - anything from Native Instruments sounds like a dream. also check out: alt.binaries.sounds.utilities
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mdisanto
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1140 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 10:19:47
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dave, i got cubase and i tried to get the VST stuff to work, and i cant get absynth to load the banks. and when i use the ones that come with cubase, theres a huge delay between when i hit my controller and when the sound is made. i searched for the settings for that (they are in an obvious spot in Absynth, but not in cubase). please help if you can - mike
-miked |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 13:16:56
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Hey miked.. Not sure what you mean about the banks in Absynth.. You mean the presets, so getting different sounds? They won't load, or you can't hear them?
What version of Cubase are you using? What kind of sound card? You'll need to turn down your ASIO buffer to get lower latency with VSTi's...
What have i gotten myself into..heh.. |
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mdisanto
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1140 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 14:32:05
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im using Cubase SX 1.1 with a Soundblaster AudioPci (sweet!). ill check out the asio buffer, that sounds like what i need. as for absynth. when you go to the vsti instrument window, you can select which instrument you want to use. with the ones that come with cubase you can select them and then you seee a second box with the different presets to choose from within that instrument. when i choose absynth, there is a second box but its empty and thus i cant change the sound. (by the way i looked up how to set the vsti as the output for the channel, so i can hear the other vsti's, so its not that) haha. youre screwed! haha j/k thanks for any help you can give. - mike
-miked |
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