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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
 Posted - 01/30/2004 : 14:01:15
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Yes, but they still hav'nt found a single thing they could claim as an WMD.
R.E Crouton's comment, v.funny did'nt intend that double-entendre. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 14:04:28
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Carl - thanks for joining the misinformation campaign. By keeping it to one thread, you guys make it easy for me to just clean this garbage up.
Who says action is only legal if sanctioned by the UN? The UN didnt sanction the Clinton/Wesley Clark Serbian war. They didnt sanction French intervention in Africa. Its a red-herring. No such authority exists at the UN.
Name me a war that the UN sanctioned and fought please. It shows a lack of understanding of how the UN works. The UN is its members. The UN didnt sanction the removal of Saddam because it was vetoed by France and Germany. Innocently enough, I'm sure, those 2 countries rec'd more Iraqi oil at cutrate prices than any other nations on the face of the earth. France was also a supplier of arms and missiles to Iraq, russians supplied artillary equipment and shells. That is your high-minded UN not sanctioning the war. |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 14:07:52
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| The UN are not some saintly organisation, agreed. But I can't believe the double-standards...Israel has been commiting atrocities against Palastine for some time...btu of, course,they're friendly with the US. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 14:10:48
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wrong again Carl. It wasnt what was expected, but, long range missiles and the development of even longer ones (that could reach Isreal and US troops in Saudi Arabia) were outlawed by your UN in one of its impotent resolutions. They have been found. Missiles with removable cones for storage of gas or WMD's, also found. MIGS buried in the sands as well. Not what the intelligence suggested would be found, but, it makes your statement untrue.
What hasnt been found refutes the fact that Iraq was an 'immenent threat' at the time the war started. They were not, based on what has been found so far. But Bush was clear on this before the war in his State of the Union:
"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 14:14:20
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| Bush basically said "Saddam Hussain-Osama Bin Laden". He used Bin Laden as an excuse, really. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 14:17:44
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Carl - I dont agree with Israel on everything. I think there is major scaling back of the settlements that has to take place. However, I draw a clear moral distinction between blowing up innocent women and children and men on buses or in shopping centers and hunting down and killing terror leaders. I cringe at some of the tactics Israel uses and feel like ordinary citizens get taken out with terrorists too often. However, that doesnt compare with a policy that specifically targets unarmed citizens rather than go to battle with the military.
I have no easy answer to solving the mideast. I am against the US relationship with the corrupt Saudi royals. Its has been US policy forever and its not worth it. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 14:18:14
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| Used bin laden as a excuse for what? |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 14:21:38
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| Going after Saddam...okay, I admit I'm being too general here and should check all the facts first...but I still believe it was an unjust war, fought for the wrong reasons, even if Hussain was ousted. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 14:26:07
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| Carl - I want to apologize for my tone responding to your posts. I try to respond in-kind and you dont deserve the attitude in my posts. Sorry, got carried away. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 14:31:34
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I just disagree that Bin Laden was an excuse for Bush to get to Iraq.
Here's why:
1) The US already had a policy of regime change in Iraq before 9/11
2) In the election Bush clearly stated that he would continue that policy and that he agreed with it.
So, my conclusion is that Bush knew what he wanted to do with Iraq before 9/11. 9/11 cemented in his mind, and many others, the risks associated with having enemies like Saddam and Bin Laden. It made the risk more real to everyone really. That IMO is what made the time for action now in his and Blair's mind. Saddam played into their hands by not going for full disclosure with the inspectors. Even Hans Blix said at the time that the WMD's were there and the HE WAS CLOSE TO FINDING THEM! Remember he went to the UN and said he just needed more time, they would be found. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 15:03:24
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I wonder what, exactly, "close to finding them" means.
If you want to argue facts pragmatically, Dallas, we need to cover the history of our relationship with Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Venezuela, Ecuador, Chile, etc. This argument has been polarized and whittled into a nice bit of spin. Facts are facts, but the way you have been providing them has been cased in party-line speech and emotionality. It's all well and good to apologize for making things personal and heated (like any patent Rush Limbaugh show) once you feel you are winning the debate.
You argue that fighting one wrong does not demand that we fight all wrongs. I call that a red herring. If you say that it is the scale of human atrocities that decided your position in the war, what scale are you using? When do we go in to clean up the UN's ineffectual business? Why do we care if a leader is thumbing their nose at UN regulations if we defy the UN's wishes in the next breath?
I am open to new information, but unless you are an Administration "think tank" insider, or have National Security clearance with the permission to share classified information, I doubt you are going to surprise me. I have very mixed feelings about our current foreign policy, and any chance to debate civilly with informed peers on the subject is a welcome opportunity. I have more to my argument, and more questions that I would like to work on, but I don't want to commandeer the current debates in the process.
edit: for spelling
"Wir müssen wissen. Wir werden wissen." |
Edited by - apl4eris on 01/30/2004 15:07:33 |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 15:18:25
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Once again Dallas, very well educated just misinformed. No use arguing with you.
What do you do for work anyway? Own a Bow tie factory?
I loved this little bit of propaganda.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm
Be sure to check - "A tale of two photo's"
the link on that page. |
Edited by - The King Of Karaoke on 01/30/2004 15:29:42 |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 15:32:11
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quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
I'm guessing you saw this as well, KoK? http://www.thememoryhole.org/media/evening-standard-crowd.htm
"Wir müssen wissen. Wir werden wissen."
No. Scarey stuff, but at the same time fair and balanced
Edit: might as well fix my spelling errors |
Edited by - The King Of Karaoke on 01/30/2004 16:59:35 |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 16:30:26
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quote:
edit: for spelling
Does that include made-up words like 'emotionality'?
Just trying to lighten the tone...
I guess the only conclusion that anyone can draw from all the debate thats been raging is that there certainly weren't any winners. It was a war, after all...
 "I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 16:45:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
quote:
edit: for spelling
Does that include made-up words like 'emotionality'?
Just trying to lighten the tone...
I guess the only conclusion that anyone can draw from all the debate thats been raging is that there certainly weren't any winners. It was a war, after all...
"I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!"
http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=emotionality&x=0&y=0
Get off my back, Mr. Cheeseypants!
"Wir müssen wissen. Wir werden wissen." |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 16:53:42
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Who told you about my pants?
quote:
Main Entry: emo·tion·al
Pronunciation: -shn&l, -sh&-n&l
Function: adjective
1 : of or relating to emotion <an emotional disorder>
2 : dominated by or prone to emotion <an emotional person>
3 : appealing to or arousing emotion <an emotional sermon>
4 : markedly aroused or agitated in feeling or sensibilities <gets emotional at weddings>
- emo·tion·al·i·ty /-"mO-sh&-'na-l&-tE/ noun
- emo·tion·al·ly /-'mO-shn&-lE, -sh&-n&l-E/ adverb
To lower the tone still further, I like number 4 best, 'markedly aroused'.
Anyway, American website? Do you speak English? Are you English? Did you invent the language?
"I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 17:09:20
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What scares the holy hell out of me is that we violated everything this nation stands for with a preemptive strike against a foreign entity without *direct* provocation. Those were primarily Saudi nationals on that plane, and there is a significant trail of ties back to the Royals that were conveniently dropped in the investigations.
Yes, Hussein ignored the UN, committed atrocities, and was generally not nice. But if ignoring the UN matters, hell - if it wasn't for Ted turner we wouldn't have even paid our dues last round - he paid them out of his own pocket. We have been testing the UN's fortitude for some time with behavior like this. The UN didn't endorse action because Powell's airtight case was a goddamned wind tunnel - I watched it live! One cannot call powerpoint slides and animation depicting what you think might be going on, in conjunction with very very very blurry pictures evidence. Sorry.
Yes I think Saddam was an evil bastard. So are the leaders of many many other nations. North Korea isn't buckling under the sanctions because the regime is not suffering. They are using their funds to pay their militia and starving the people. Millions - I repeat - MILLIONS (about 3, actually) are dying. From a humanitarian perspective this is much, much worse than Iraq.
Here is an article from almost 4 years ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1046878.stm
It hasn't gotten better.
But yet there we claim the moral high ground of not being nationbuilders and invaders? Horse Shit.
This administration should be tried for treason, if for no other reason than the Patriot Act and it's ilk. Did you notice the president is going to veto the bill reducing the severity of Patriot? And Patriot II has a clause saying you the people cannot even read part of the bill?? And for the record, when I say this administration I mean both sides of the floor, since they all voted for that shit without reading it. Before anyone responds hastily, I recommend you go read it as well, and ask some very hard questions.
 I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank WallaWalla Washington! |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 17:10:12
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I don't see any need to lower the tone in this thread. It was heated at first, but I thought things were turning towards the level-headed.
So slag off!
I'm Welsh, Irish, and Scottish by lineage, so I hate the English anyway. Besides, you're a Cheeseman, how could you not have cheesey pants? Eeeewwww
"Wir müssen wissen. Wir werden wissen." |
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GoddessTheory
= Cult of Ray =
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 17:27:56
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Umm hello...it's Friday Night.
Why are you all still here?
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 17:32:01
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Well, I actually have a valid excuse: Lyme Disease.
And the fact that I have no life thanks to it. Yup. And no friends because I suck, hehehe.
 "Join the Cult of Gunn / And Then You'll Be Destined to be a Rock and Roll Star of Epical Proportions!" |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 17:32:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
that was a decent one-liner there at the end.
Are you going to thank me for all this info. McMikey??
Yes, I want to thank you! So...Thank you, Mr. Cheney!
Come clean Dick. We know it's you.
I didn't know you were a Frank Black fan.
COOL! In that case murder who ever you want.
Dick "DALLAS" Cheney |
Edited by - The King Of Karaoke on 01/30/2004 19:21:08 |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 19:19:38
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quote:
Originally posted by GoddessTheory
Umm hello...it's Friday Night.
Why are you all still here?
I'm always here! Watching!...Waiting to strike! With deadly comedic force!
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Edited by - The King Of Karaoke on 01/30/2004 21:10:40 |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 19:26:39
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bush drinks donkey jizz and of course there were no WMDs.
this very minute is iraq a better place than it was a year ago? maybe for some people, definitely not for others.
will it be a better place in five years? definitely.
is there any point to threads like this one? absolutely not because none of you have any power whatsoever. plus you're kinda not all that smart. :)
<3 <3 <3 |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 19:34:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
plus you're kinda not all that smart. :)
<3 <3 <3
What do you mean kinda? I'm a fucking idiot!
Now watch what you post around here, or you might hurt someones feelings. |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 19:37:41
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Oh yeah, "better place in five years" ?!
I hope so. We just got done blowing the hell out of it. How much worse could it get? |
Edited by - The King Of Karaoke on 01/30/2004 20:01:16 |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 22:22:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The King Of Karaoke
Oh yeah, "better place in five years" ?!
I hope so. We just got done blowing the hell out of it. How much worse could it get?
I could move there. But I would live there for 6 years just to piss off Ebb.
I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank WallaWalla Washington! |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 22:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
Dave couldnt be wronger. Just ask the Iraqi's. But what could they know? You people know so much more from your comfy chairs. Then again Dave has a history of posting false information and dubious claims. You can look through the history of this forum, facts and reality do not get in the way of his agenda.
Yeah, Dave you couldn't be WRONGER Hey I know! Lets go ask the Iraqi's! Hey Cheney do you have the Iraqi's phone number? We want to ask them who's WRONGER  |
Edited by - The King Of Karaoke on 01/30/2004 22:37:08 |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 22:39:44
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quote:
Originally posted by SpudBoy
quote:
Originally posted by The King Of Karaoke
Oh yeah, "better place in five years" ?!
I hope so. We just got done blowing the hell out of it. How much worse could it get?
I could move there. But I would live there for 6 years just to piss off Ebb.
I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank WallaWalla Washington!
Spudboy, it's your mission to spread the word. The word of the feces! |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2004 : 22:49:28
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What word does feces say? Best I can figure is something like
"mmmmmERrrp."
"Wir müssen wissen. Wir werden wissen." |
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Thomas
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1615 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2004 : 03:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Scarla O
Hey Thomas, some of us are using work computers - i'd rather not get the sack for clicking on that link.
You're right, I'm sorry.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak my mind.
I lost my job this past year. When William Clinton was president I was secure and prosperous, but in the last year, we had to close our operations. We simply could not compete with foreign labor. This foreign labor worked for low pay under very bad conditions. They worked very long shifts, and many even died on the job.
This competition could hardly be called "fair." I was forced out of the place where I had worked for 34 years. Not a single government program was there to help me. How can Bush call himself "compassionate?"
Far worse, I lost two of my sons in Bush's evil war in Iraq. They gave their lives for their country, and for what? So that Bush's oil buddies can get rich.
My pain of losing my sons is indescribable. While it is trivial next to the loss of my sons, I regret to say that I also lost my home. I simply have nothing left.
How can Bush call himself a Christian when he neglects people like me? I am a senior citizen with various medical problems. I'm not in a position where I can begin a new career. I was reduced to the point where I had to live in a hole in a ground, all because of President Bush. And when the authorities found me there, did they have any compassion for my misfortune and ailments?
No, I was arrested.
Mr. Bush, I dare you to look me in the face and tell me you are a compassionate man! I dare you to look me in the face and tell me you are a Christian! If I had any money left, I would donate it to the Democrat Party.
If Al Gore had been elected in 2000 I would still have a job, a home, and most importantly, my dear sons!
Regards,
Saddam Hussein
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2004 : 04:37:14
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That was a clever post, Thomas, definitely one to go back and reread.
I'm also bemused that no-one has mentioned Zimbabwe yet, whereas North Korea has been bandied around a bit. If you want to talk about evil despots...
Robert Mugabe came to power with popular support, after overthrowing the white ruling regime. He promised land for veterans and numerous other things. Since coming to power, he has caused wave after wave of violence against legitimate landowners, turned the land once known as 'the breadbasket of Africa' into something resembling a big pile of dust, and is currently starving about 6 million of his own people. Oh yes, he's estimated in the top 5 richest people in the world, pays for private armies to guard his diamond mines in the DR Congo with tax money, and has rigged a bunch of elections to keep himself where he is. I would honestly regard him as a bigger threat (in humanitarian terms) than Saddam Hussein.
But then, there's no oil in Zimbabwe.
"I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2004 : 08:03:43
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quote:
Umm hello...it's Friday Night.
Why are you all still here?
I'm sorry. You must be confusing me with somebody who has a life.
Besides, I had to be at work at 10 this morning.
-Nathan
And how does lemur's skin reflect the sea?
http://vovat.blogspot.com/ |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2004 : 08:21:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
That was a clever post, Thomas, definitely one to go back and reread.
I'm also bemused that no-one has mentioned Zimbabwe yet, whereas North Korea has been bandied around a bit. If you want to talk about evil despots...
Robert Mugabe came to power with popular support, after overthrowing the white ruling regime. He promised land for veterans and numerous other things. Since coming to power, he has caused wave after wave of violence against legitimate landowners, turned the land once known as 'the breadbasket of Africa' into something resembling a big pile of dust, and is currently starving about 6 million of his own people. Oh yes, he's estimated in the top 5 richest people in the world, pays for private armies to guard his diamond mines in the DR Congo with tax money, and has rigged a bunch of elections to keep himself where he is. I would honestly regard him as a bigger threat (in humanitarian terms) than Saddam Hussein.
But then, there's no oil in Zimbabwe.
You are absolutely correct, and this is a similar situation (in theme) to the scenario in Liberia. http://www.au.org/churchstate/cs1022.htm
The private mercenaries are also being used in Afghanistan (Bosnian atrocoties also mentioned),
http://www.cfr.org/pub5207/jonathan_d_tepperman/can_mercenaries_protect_hamid_karzai.php
Sierra Leone
http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1999/039907.shtml
http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/s220036.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2056207.stm
were used in Yugoslavia/Serbia/Montenegro/Bosnia (large UN report from 1995)
http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1995/a-50-390.htm
and are currently in Iraq, in even larger numbers than ever before in a United States military campaign (as far as I have been able to surmise)
http://washingtontimes.com/world/20031006-122420-5426r.htm
http://in.news.yahoo.com/040120/43/2b0kf.html
Why is the UN for all intents all but defunct? Spudboy mentions above the muscling tactics of the US in withholding their dues, until Ted Turner, for whatever reason, paid the dues from his own pocket. When the Rwandan genocide was at an apex, and the UN pleaded with the International community, the US refused to send troops. I would suggest that anyone interested in finding out more about this massive human catastrophe and the reasons behind why an International governing body primarily designed and promoted by the US when it suited their needs, is becoming dangerously useless, please look into this documentary. This link provides very informative and factual reading:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/evil/
Reason to research and engage your representatives and voice your protest? Private international mercenaries, including companies such as Brown and Root (a Halliburton subsidiary heavily involved in Iraq) are not governable by US law. The international laws pertaining to them, of which there are very few, are at best toothless and practically unenforceable.
(I have more to say, but I imagine if I go any further right now it'll be in danger of crossing over into rant territory.)
"Wir müssen wissen. Wir werden wissen." |
Edited by - apl4eris on 01/31/2004 08:28:52 |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2004 : 08:33:27
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The critical element in the use of mercenary forces is plausible deniability. By engaging these organizations to carry out "policing" activities, their actions are abstracted to the extent that the US, France, etc. can claim that they were not responsible for the various atrocities that occur in these scenarios. No one left to be held accountable but a private corporation, who can then fire the "offending parties" but most of the time all that results, if anything, is a commitment by the company to stage an inquiry. The blame evaporates in the ensuing paper shuffling. Neat, huh?
I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank WallaWalla Washington! |
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