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miguel
- FB Fan -
USA
213 Posts |
 Posted - 12/20/2003 : 01:56:11
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The town where I live kept walmart out with the aide of a huge signed petition. We kept a starbucks out too but the came in through the backdoor by setting up shop inside of a safeway.. sneaky bastards.
"... it's a pill, that gives worms... to exgirlfriends.. you just don't get it"
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Edited by - miguel on 12/20/2003 01:59:47 |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 07:38:40
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Something else to consider is that at this point in the US economy, Wal-Mart's decisions actually move the retail markets (pricing) across the US (and the world), and the stock markets (if WM drops a product line, the dropped company's stock plummets). US capitalism is founded on the idea of balanced competition - see the anti trust laws. WM is very dangerously close to being the most all consuming monopoly on earth. Victims of their own success in that regard, but never the less a dangerous entity. No single corporation should have that amount of economic power - it disrupts the continuum.
 I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank the LaBrea Tar Pits! |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 08:31:07
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Thank you, thank you, thank you, Spudboy. Thas' a what I'm'a talkin' 'bout.
 Swedish Chef's "Dumpling of Wisdom":Swedish Chef's "Dumpling of Wisdom": Øder tis moodle in der noggin tu smacken der ouchey und vinger-slingers ur to smacken-backen und fix de morkin, yøobetcha! |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 10:05:31
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Some of you must have seen the South Park where the voted on a proposition to drive "Harbucks" out of town... and the commercial with the kids going up in a puff of smoke: "You don't hate children...do you?"
I almost pissed myself.
 "Join the Cult of Steve-o / And enjoy the best brownies"  |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 10:45:14
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hehe - that was a funny SP.
Or last weeks Simpsons..and 'Sprawlmart'. =) |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 13:56:30
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quote:
Originally posted by BLT
Some of you must have seen the South Park where the voted on a proposition to drive "Harbucks" out of town... and the commercial with the kids going up in a puff of smoke: "You don't hate children...do you?"
I almost pissed myself.
"Join the Cult of Steve-o / And enjoy the best brownies"
Them brownies lookin' mighty tasty, mmmhhmm. |
Edited by - apl4eris on 12/20/2003 13:57:36 |
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 17:11:08
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I'm glad to be back home. I was just reading all the new posts and the ones that I really want to respond to are Spudboy's.
"The more I learn about Wal-Mart the less I shop there." Even if there are mostly chain stores where you live, you have a choice of shopping there sometimes or NEVER shopping there. It seems that many of their business practices offend you deeply. If some business was that offensive to me, I would NEVER shop there, I wouldn't "keep it to a minimum".
You say, "I'm a capitalist", but your statement-" No single corporation should have that amount of economic power" is completely the opposite of capitalist ideals. True capitalism is based on individuals being free to deal with each other *voluntarily*. That means that everyone can decide for themselves who they want to do business with and who they don't. That means that the government can not step in and say arbitrarily that one business is too powerful, too efficient, and must be restrained.
You want some capitalism but ultimately you want the government to be in control. You complain about how awful wal-Mart is but you still shop there.
You can't have it both ways. You said at the beginning of your post, " You want us to take sides, but the sides are unclear, crappy choices." The sides are very clear, and you have a choice: Either people are free to decide who they want to do business with or they are not.
You should choose a side AND be straightforward about which side you are on. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 17:28:09
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What exactly is the difference between a mega multinat dictating to you what you are capable of purchasing and how much you will pay for it and a government doing the same thing?
Nothing.
You can't have it both ways? Take a look around, my friend. Neither all-controlling government nor all-controlling corporate entities are the order of the day in either of our countries. For now...
 "Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 18:05:00
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"what exactly is the difference...?"
The difference exactly is force. Neither individuals nor corporations can FORCE anyone to do anything. They offer products for a certain price but they can not force people to buy them. They can offer jobs at a certain wage but they can not force people to take them.
Only the goverment has the power to force people to do anything. The government should protect everyone's right to deal voluntarily with whoever they want. |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 18:48:44
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You are speaking in terms of ideals. In an ideal world, regulation and third party intervention would not be necessary, as everyone involved would be altruistically inclined. Read the Wall Street Journal lately? Not what we're up against - fact is, that's why the SEC, the Federal Reserve, and other regulatory bodies exist. If you look under the hood, these two (SEC & FED) are both actually private corporations with federal mandates. Voluntary capitalism is what happened recently with the after-hours market timing scandals in the mutual fund world. The funds' traders broke the rules as laid out by the private corporations, and that brought on the wrath of the justice department.
And I am a capitalist, but I do not have millions upon millions of dollars to move market prices with, so I am dependent on the rules and regulations put in place - theoretically to protect the small investor/businessperson - to operate on a somewhat less unbalanced field. It's part of the formula. Sorry. If you think that the capitalist ideal is one major multinational running everything, you need to revisit your macroeconomics textbook. The center can't hold. I have considered short-selling Wal Mart stock, since the corporation can't get much larger before the antitrust suits start. That usually hurts the price (see MSFT historical prices tracked to news for an example).
Pure science is studying the nature of a vacuum. Applied science is building a vacuum cleaner. Ideals versus reality.
Also, being a capitalist, I have picked a side. Mine. What I do with that is my call, and I choose to deal based on the demonstrated ethics of other entities. I would also prefer to continue to have a wide variety of choices. If you mean supporting Wal Mart (or any of the monopolies-to-be) means perpetuation of that selection of choices, I'm afraid I can't agree with you less.
I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank the LaBrea Tar Pits! |
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 20:07:32
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Yes I am speaking in terms of ideals. And I don't believe that ideals are seperate from the real world.
If you believe that ideals are divorced from reality then that would explain the glaring contradictions in your last post.
You said that government regulation is necessary because people are not "altruistically inclined" as they should be- then you said you were a capitalist.
The philosophy of altruism holds that people should sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others.
The philosophy of capitalism holds that people should be free to deal with each other for their own benefit.
It is impossible to be a capitalist AND favor regulations and anti-trust laws.
It's interesting that although you think everyone should be altruistically inclined you said, " I have picked a side. Mine." Shouldn't you be following your own ideals- why aren't you sacrificing yourself for others.
I'm curious: Since people are not acting according to your ideal (since they aren't "altruistically inclined"), then why should they have any rights at all. Why stop at intervention and regulation? Shouldn't the government just take over completely?
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 20:33:50
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Well, put simply - it's not black and white. If we careen toward one extreme or another, it's just as destructive, either way. Altruism does not mean sacrifice per se, it denies greed and looks out for other people. I agree that the philosophy of capitalism is based in free trade and benefit. I wholly disagree that capitalism and regulation are at odds. The current state of the world economy contradicts this statement. Again, if we return to the example of Wal-Mart, it has grown into the behemoth it is within the bounds of the current regulatory bodies. I think it is walking the line. Those regulations are there to ensure that there is a choice. I can continue to repeat myself, or you can do the research before you post. As for following my own ideals, I try to do business with local small entrpenurs when possible, and donate to various charities. Ideals are a means to an end, not an end in and of themselves. As far as rights and governmental control, the rights must be there because we are humans, and *some* bounds must be collectively set amongst us (usually in the form of government) because not everyone recognizes we are all humans. Polarizing my remarks does nothing to further your argument.
I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank the LaBrea Tar Pits! |
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 21:09:11
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| Well' it's been a lot of fun. I've said everything I wanted to, and I feel much better now. Merry Christmas |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 19:03:38
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You too! Enjoy the New Year as well!
I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank the LaBrea Tar Pits! |
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 21:06:34
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| I'm really looking forward to it. I think 2004 is going to be a great year. Happy New Year. |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
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Topic Locked
"I joined the Cult of Clops / If I were you, I'd sleep with one eye open."