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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
 Posted - 11/19/2003 : 15:34:04
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quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
Here's a new facet of this topic:
Why was there such a huge discrepancy in the way that God acted in the Old Testament and the New Testament? In the Old he is very demanding, very temperamental, and would strike you dead at the drop of a hat. It seems like some cruel mind game to me that God led Abraham (if it wasn't Abraham, my apologies. I do own a Bible but due to laziness...) to the point of almost killing his own son as a sacrifice to God. Yes, this was done to make a point, and the child wasn't actually harmed, but that seems a far cry from the loving, encouraging God of the New Testament. I'm not trying to illustrate any point about the religious debate, but has anyone ever wondered this?
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
This has got to be the most common point brought up by non-Christians.
The key point here is the concept of holiness. I'm sure you'll have some problems with this, but the idea is that God is perfect, and cannot tolerate any form of sin, evil, whatever, in his presence. Because of this he set down in the Old Testament a set of rules and regulations by which animals can be sacrificed to take away sin. When Jesus died he was made to be the last sacrifice, i.e. he could pay the penalty for everyone's sin.
This means that God no longer needs to be judgemental on every human that does wrong, rather that the offer is there for any person to have their sins forgiven, and escape judgement.
It is the same God, only in different circumstances.
 "I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 16:28:59
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"Two mirrors make infinity.." - Robyn Hitchcock, 'Queen Elvis'
That was awfully generous of Jesus. I wonder how all the folks who weren't anywhere near Christiandom could ever repent for their sins.
Funny thing, really, is that 'sin' is also a creation by this seemingly sadistic bastard.
Perhaps i've been thoroughly tainted by this 'valley of the shadow of death', but Lucifer sounds like a better deal every time i think about what an ass the Xian god is. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 16:40:30
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A minor catch being that Lucifer was also a Xian creation. That other monotheistic religion, whatsit? - Zoroastrianism - now that's a weird 'un for sure.
Even weirder are the ties between Nietzsche, Zoroastrianism, "2001: A Space Odyssey", and those weird tiles that keep popping up in streets all over the Western hemisphere.
http://tenets.zoroastrianism.com/
www.toynbee.net
http://toynbee.net/toynbee.html
edit: for spelling |
Edited by - apl4eris on 11/19/2003 19:44:11 |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 00:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman
...This has got to be the most common point brought up by non-Christians.
The key point here is the concept of holiness. I'm sure you'll have some problems with this, but the idea is that God is perfect, and cannot tolerate any form of sin, evil, whatever, in his presence. Because of this he set down in the Old Testament a set of rules and regulations by which animals can be sacrificed to take away sin. When Jesus died he was made to be the last sacrifice, i.e. he could pay the penalty for everyone's sin.
This means that God no longer needs to be judgemental on every human that does wrong, rather that the offer is there for any person to have their sins forgiven, and escape judgement.
It is the same God, only in different circumstances.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
Why would I have trouble grasping that concept? Just because I don't ascribe to the same "God" as you or anyone else doesn't mean that I am some godless heathen, or mentally inferior. I'm sure we still go by the same set of morals.
I wasn't out to point out some innate flaw of the bible, just to wonder about a specific idea that I was thinking about. It seems to me that you are jumping the gun thinking I'm trying to argue the bible, for or against. The first basic thing you should understand about me, is that I know we could argue seventy-two ways from Tuesday about religion, and I'm not going to convince you of my point and you're not going to convince me of yours. I think we both have done way too much thinking about the matter to simply be converted like that...although we have arrived at vastly different conclusions about God, I would hope that you used your own noggin' in reaching that conclusion, instead of just blindly following other people's convictions because of threat of eternal damnation if you have any independent thoughts. I know that it took alot of coming to terms with just such a fear before I reached my current belief. I already hear in you some of the haughty aspects of Christians that really turn me off from mainstream denominations. (Don't become a missionary, okay?)
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 01:57:55
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I know, sorry, it really wasn't intended as a preaching rant!
Firstly, I wasn't suggesting anything personal by saying "you (as in anyone reading this) may have a problem with this". All I was saying is that people have spent most of this thread picking holes in other peoples opinions and arguments, so I just wanted to make clear that I was aware that was going to happen.
I'd be interested to hear what you think is 'haughty', however. I've tried to present the Christian principle in a reasonably balanced, matter-of-fact way. My intention has not been to try and make you believe so much as explain the other side of the argument to what you're all talking. I would also say that I wouldn't classify myself as 'mainstream denomination', either.
PS you don't need the apostrophe on 'noggin'
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 06:31:03
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Dave - how about some attacks on Islam, Buddhism or the Jews? Or does your outright bigotry and religious bating reserved for Christians?
You are so tolerant of a fly, fearing that some unenlightened human might take a fly swatter to it, yet, you brazenly attack Christian belief systems and the memory of Christ with impunity. Your posts present yourself as a bigot. No better than any white supremist, you just think that the target of your bigotry is acceptable. Its not by me. |
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1602 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 07:49:43
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Hey guess what. Each of us and all of us and everything around us is GOD.
Rule #1 - Would you hit yourself on the head with a hammer? Well then why would you hurt anyone else because you may as well be doing it to yourself. Don't hurt anyone and try to love and help everyone (which is nigh to impossible, look at my ranting with Egg Viscous)
Rule#2 - When everyone achieves that perfect love, you'll remember you were GOD all along. Till then.....
So no need for overanalyzing it in 5 pages worth of psychobabble, because there it is pilgrims, there it is. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 08:06:07
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jesus is a cum-guzzling fag. lol.
ATTENTION RELIGIOUS PPL: last night god spoke to me and told me that ur all dumb and he likes me best. sry :( |
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1602 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 10:07:54
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As you can see for yourselves, this guy does not deserve to be on this forum or live.
Take your pick. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 10:54:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
Dave - how about some attacks on Islam, Buddhism or the Jews? Or does your outright bigotry and religious bating reserved for Christians?
Actually, that brings up an interesting point... Why does every Christian band get slated, while nobody lays a finger on reggae artists for being Rastafarian, or the Beastie Boys for being Buddhist?
Just a thought.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 11:11:08
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Because I believe they are all rather crap. I don't think it has much to do with religion.
 "I have been enslaved by the Cult of Ming / He is ever so merciless...unlike that nice Mr Black." |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 11:13:10
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You'd be surprised actually, there are some good bands out there.
Not every Christian band sounds like Sixpence None The Richer.
And we have to thank the Lord for that.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 11:13:49
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| You think Beastie Boys are CRAP? huh?!?! My worldview crumbles around my ears...... |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 11:17:01
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quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
You think Beastie Boys are CRAP? huh?!?! My worldview crumbles around my ears......
Actually it was one of my total throw-away posts. I wouldn't know a christian band if it came up and bit me.
Beastie Boys are Christians eh?
Don't like them anyway, apart from their early stuff with the guitarist from Slayer - they rocked.
"I have been enslaved by the Cult of Ming / He is ever so merciless...unlike that nice Mr Black." |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 11:19:14
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Hey help me out here, I had a little horsie named Paul Revere...
Classic! |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 11:19:17
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Hang on a darn minute. How can they be seen to be paying homage to a band like Slayer if they're supposed to be nice Christian boys. Are you pulling my leg Apl?
"I have been enslaved by the Cult of Ming / He is ever so merciless...unlike that nice Mr Black." |
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LivER_FisH
- FB Fan -
South Africa
57 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 12:10:53
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i'll answer all the questions i can...
(this will be long)
knowledge might take place of faith but
God has chosen to never make himself completely provable and so
sustaining the necessary room for faith
2001 was inspired by the song lucy in the sky by the beatles i think
John prolly twisted lucy to be lucifer and then built a story around it
making lucifer the diamond
as for God being seemingly different in old and new testaments
this is where the trinity of God is involved
the existance of man can be divided into 3 parts,
each part a different part of God is the primary influence
and therefore to understand one you need to look at all becuz
God is 3 in 1
So... the first stage is the old testament, God the Father was the
primary influence in this stage, in the old testament we see the
isrealites as God's chosen people (simply becuz he had to choose someone)
Here the law is established, in which the rules were layed out
these laws were made to keep the isrealites from sin or bad living
for example the law of circumcition was to make covenant with God, and
now the covenant is spiritual through the work of Jesus (mroe on that later)
and also the law of impure animals, this was becuz of the many parasites and
diseases in those animals (for example tape worm)
Those laws no longer apply but the 10 commandments do still stand
Now comes Jesus
Jesus came becuz even tho the isrealites had the law they could not escape
the sinful lives they had, they tried to be holy but could not, so Jesus came
to defeat sin. Jesus never sinned but died for sin and then rose from the dead
therefore defeating sin and death. Jesus taught on how you should live and act
and think aswell.
Next Jesus returned to heaven and the Holy Spirit came to earth.
This is becuz while Jesus was still here only as many people could hear Him as
who were in earshot and He could not talk to us all at the same time.
The Holy Spirit can communicate with everyone simaltaneously which much more effective.
No longer is it the physical actions which count but now it is the state of your heart.
The Holy Spirit can help us all to live and act and think the way Jesus tuaght.
Before you are a christian you might only recognize the Holy Spirit as your concience.
As a christian the Holy Spirit communicates with your spirit.
It is these different functionings that give us the difference in the testaments.
why christian bands get slated
ok, we are comprised of spirit and flesh
flesh is all of u that is not spirit
spirit is dead until you accept Christ.
Therefore before you've accepted Christ you
are ruled by flesh. Flesh is sinful and therefore
it hates God. So if you are not christian you're flesh
will cause you to be predisposided to dislike godliness
becuase christian bands are godly your flesh dislikes them
but reggea bands are not godly so your flesh has no problem with them.
very long and flamable but i hope it helped someone out there |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 12:15:56
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Bigot? haha..pretty severe accusation there Dallas. (Which is 'sallad' backwards..yum.)
Would someone opposed to, say, slavery, be considered a bigot? Why, i suppose they were, when slavery was the norm - 'why, how DARE you tell me how i should treat this black man!!'
I have stated on many ocassions that i'm opposed to *all* organized religions. I'll admit to heavy anti-Xion leanings in this thread, since the topic is 'Christians vs Athiests'. |
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Hordak
- FB Fan -
USA
180 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 12:21:22
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quote:
Originally posted by LivER_FisH
2001 was inspired by the song lucy in the sky by the beatles i think
John prolly twisted lucy to be lucifer and then built a story around it
making lucifer the diamond
Do you even know what 2001 is? Stanley Kubrick was the director of the 1960's film. The film was an adaptation of the Arthur C. Clarke book, 2001.
Hordak Says:
Fuck that asshole Steve! Die die die motherfucker!!! |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 12:21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by bedrock_barney
quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
You think Beastie Boys are CRAP? huh?!?! My worldview crumbles around my ears......
Actually it was one of my total throw-away posts. I wouldn't know a christian band if it came up and bit me. Beastie Boys are Christians eh?
No, Barney, they're Buddhists, as was pointed out earlier, heheh. Alert! alert! Communication break-down! (plus I was kidding like Brer' Rabbit. s-a-r-c-a-s-m! ;) |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 12:24:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Bigot? haha..pretty severe accusation there Dallas. (Which is 'sallad' backwards..yum.)
Would someone opposed to, say, slavery, be considered a bigot? Why, i suppose they were, when slavery was the norm - 'why, how DARE you tell me how i should treat this black man!!'
I have stated on many ocassions that i'm opposed to *all* organized religions. I'll admit to heavy anti-Xion leanings in this thread, since the topic is 'Christians vs Athiests'.
Sorry, the topic title was kind of done tongue-in-cheek, I wouldn't consider it pitting us against each other, only batting back and forth ideas.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 12:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by LivER_FisH
2001 was inspired by the song lucy in the sky by the beatles i think John prolly twisted lucy to be lucifer and then built a story around it making lucifer the diamond
What the doodly-HOO-hah are you goin on about? I have never seen that analysis posited before. whoa. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 12:40:38
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| just me and my horsie and a quart of beer... |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 13:09:51
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Dave - you are lost. Slavery and Christianity are on the same moral plane? And every fly is useful. How in the world do you perform such moral acrobatics?
Then there is the intellectual side. Slavery, like murder or rape, is a crime. Christianity is a religion. Surely you can do better than that.
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 13:22:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
just me and my horsie and a quart of beer...
The air is gettin' hot - the beer is getting flat ......
I did it like this - I did it like that
I did it with a whiffleball bat |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 13:27:33
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| why thank you apl, I was waiting... |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 13:33:38
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| sure thing, toots! |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 14:00:45
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quote:
Originally posted by the swimmer
As you can see for yourselves, this guy does not deserve to be on this forum or live.
Take your pick.
jesus asked me to tell you he's not talking to you anymore. he doesn't like pigfuckers. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 15:23:43
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| Hey this thread is called Respecting Others.... |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 15:31:07
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I'd just ignore him.
Barney, you crazy Welsh person! Read the posts!
Also, I don't know where that 2001 bit came from, or tapeworm for that matter...
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 20:58:03
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Dallas - no, they are not currently on the same moral plane (tho they would have 100yrs ago, as a good 'Christian' thing to do.)
Crimes are relative to the times. Many acts we now define as 'rape' weren't not so long ago. And don't tell me there is no connection between crimes and religion. (Which has for the greater part of the existance of laws, been how they've been define, n'est pas?)
You didn't really refute my point on bigotry..? |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2003 : 21:11:32
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And Ebb - play nice.
Maybe Jesus was gay, but you don't make it sound like that could have been a good thing.
Refering to Jason (Swimmer) as you did isn't acceptable here, consider this a warning. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2003 : 00:55:50
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oh yeah sorry i guess he really hasn't done anything to earn that name. it's not like he replies to every post i make going on and on about how much he hates me and wants to "pound [my] face".
as far as the jesus comments go, i'll try to refer to him in a more kind manner from now on.
praise be. |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2003 : 01:25:38
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quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
quote:
Originally posted by bedrock_barney
quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
You think Beastie Boys are CRAP? huh?!?! My worldview crumbles around my ears......
Actually it was one of my total throw-away posts. I wouldn't know a christian band if it came up and bit me. Beastie Boys are Christians eh?
No, Barney, they're Buddhists, as was pointed out earlier, heheh. Alert! alert! Communication break-down! (plus I was kidding like Brer' Rabbit. s-a-r-c-a-s-m! ;)
quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
Barney, you crazy Welsh person! Read the posts!
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
Well, I wouldn't be the first person not to read posts.
So, The Beastie Boys are Buddhists eh?
They're still not very good.
And Cheeseman, name those names regarding good Christian bands. I await to be convinced.
"I have been enslaved by the Cult of Ming / He is ever so merciless...unlike that nice Mr Black." |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2003 : 01:34:26
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There's a band by the name of Stavesacre, currently signed to Nitro (Offspring's label, home to Vandals, Damned, etc.). Its very good melodic hardcore with an almost operatic vocal. I like them v much, the songs are superb.
Starflyer59 is another, and there's a bunch of punk bands which aren't MXPX.
The Christian music industry is a law to itself, and the arguments which go on within are insane. Unfortunately this means that few artists are willing to push the boat out musically, but there are some.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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