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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
 Posted - 11/16/2003 : 12:01:54
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| Should one assume that you are a young earth creationist then? |
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MangyKid
- FB Fan -
170 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 12:04:37
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| I love bacon, and so truly god has spectacles. |
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Hordak
- FB Fan -
USA
180 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 12:11:51
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God must not give much of a crap about the animals of the world, huh?
 My wife has a split personality, and I hate both of them.
-- Anon |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 13:43:33
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But what if you believe in god*s*? Or a goddess?
I agree that we've got bigger nuts to crack (hunger, homelessness, kindness and support for each person, and of course non-human animals), but i can also see why people would take issue. |
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interloper
= Cult of Ray =
440 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 14:17:48
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While everyone in the world is trying to figure out what is really happening whether there is a god or not, over analyzing everything, looking too deep, the world passes them all by. I guess it depends of what your definition of life is. Personally, I believe in not taking any sides or any pre-described aesthetic. God or no god. Republican or Democrat...who gives a damn. Go to the park, get high, makeout with your girlfriend or boyfriend. Whatever. Serious organized christians are just as silly to me as serious wiccans, or satanists, or hmm....antique collectors. It's all just fanatisicm. Silly silly stuff. Go straight to what makes you happy. Don't sit around and wonder why. People are animals first and foremost, thinkers or not....animals. Plain and simple. Our curse of conciousness however provides us with some sort of psychological need to feel like someone is at the wheel. Makes since. What I would like to know, as purely a bit of trivia, is exactly who the hell is King James, and why is an English king's named stamped on every bible I see? On the positive end, real or not, I think the bible is taken way too literally. Whomever wrote the thing (could have been a political satirist for all we know) was brilliant. I don't think though that it was meant to be taken so literally. Literal interpretation seems to ruin a lot of things.
Thats the most unfocused thing Ive ever typed in my life. Sorry. |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 14:57:03
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quote:
Originally posted by interloper
While everyone in the world is trying to figure out what is really happening whether there is a god or not, over analyzing everything, looking too deep, the world passes them all by. I guess it depends of what your definition of life is. Personally, I believe in not taking any sides or any pre-described aesthetic. God or no god. Republican or Democrat...who gives a damn. Go to the park, get high, makeout with your girlfriend or boyfriend. Whatever. Serious organized christians are just as silly to me as serious wiccans, or satanists, or hmm....antique collectors. It's all just fanatisicm. Silly silly stuff. Go straight to what makes you happy. Don't sit around and wonder why.
thus -- the agnostic.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 00:30:24
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quote:
Originally posted by LivER_FisH
and finaly... man's not smart enough to invent God, why is religion all over the world even in places where civilization has never been to, becuz it's impossible to deny the existance of God if you look at the order in the universe (respective to disorder),
Kind of like a tree falling in the forest. How do you know god is there before any people are there? Or only western people deemed to be civilizations?
quote:
if u put ten numbers in a hat the chances of pulling them out in order are 1 to over a billion, order is not natural, God must have created it, and if he is God he can create anything right, like things that seem to be millions of years old
Actually, the probability of pulling the 10 numbers out in order is (drum roll please):
10*9*8*7*6*5*4*3*2 = 1 in 3,628,800 (if before hand you specify that order has to be ascending or descending)
otherwise it is 1 in 1,814,400. Considerably more likely than 1 in a billion. |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 00:33:31
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Congrats on reaching teenagehood, Darwin.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 00:42:36
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| Thanks. I suddenly feel 12 songs longer. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 01:26:41
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quote:
What I would like to know, as purely a bit of trivia, is exactly who the hell is King James, and why is an English king's named stamped on every bible I see?
King James was king of Britain in, um, 1611, I think. He authorized the translation also known as the Authorised Version to be read in churches, etc. It is generally considered to be the most accurate translation from the original Hebrew and Greek, although it is not without its faults.
 "I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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LivER_FisH
- FB Fan -
South Africa
57 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 09:59:35
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well million is still high, i never actually worked it out for myself
so yeah, thanks
my point was that order is unnatural and wether or not God created the earth universe soon or long ago, we would not exist if it were not for the order
and the order is created and/or sustained by God |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 10:06:06
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| How is order unnatural? Your example doesn't prove that at all. Wouldn't the law of probability be ruled by nature? |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 10:08:46
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| I just want to point out that the "order is unnatural" argument is Pauly's old argument and Dawkins responded to it in his book "The Blind Watchmaker". Natural selection isn't random and is quite capable of producing order. |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 10:20:34
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One interesting example of this is how astronomers percieve the galaxies. In the not-too-distant-past, scientists thought that the galaxies were arranged pretty randomly; it's only been recently that they've realized that their scope was decieving them into believing that order did not exist, and that the stars were chaotic, when in reality vast, unfathomable chains of galaxies stretching millions and millions of light years long existed too big for them to initially see. They just couldn't see that big.
I don't know if that is a good argument for the existence of order in nature, but I thought it kind of related. It just shows how limited our perspective is, and the "order" that exists may just be too big for our cursory glance.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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Edited by - glacial906 on 11/17/2003 10:21:39 |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 08:38:34
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quote:
Originally posted by LivER_FisH
and finaly... man's not smart enough to invent God, why is religion all over the world even in places where civilization has never been to, becuz it's impossible to deny the existance of God if you look at the order in the universe (respective to disorder), if u put ten numbers in a hat the chances of pulling them out in order are 1 to over a billion, order is not natural, God must have created it, and if he is God he can create anything right, like things that seem to be millions of years old
Actually, I believe scientists have proven mathmatically that our universe could not have developed any other way. The universe is very disorderly and we are constantly having to change what we thought were laws of physics. Watch one of the Kayaanisquotsi films and you'll see an example of how order can be derived from chaos. It all depends on your perspective.
"Join the Cult of Clootie / and you'll get more booty!" www.mp3.com/clootie |
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LivER_FisH
- FB Fan -
South Africa
57 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 10:18:28
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and who created natural selection?
it just occured out of nothing?
i think God set it in motion, and therefore, if
you say natural selection creates order but God created it
then God is still the one creating order.
God created science. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 14:44:30
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Who created god? Did he/she/it just start out of nothing?
It's true natural selection and god aren't mutually exclusive. The existence of natural selection doesn't prove there is not a god. Nothing can prove there is not a god, just like nothing can prove there is one. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 14:54:22
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The interesting thing is, if you could prove there WAS a God, what would happen to faith? Would it cease to exist? Is knowing there's a God less powerful than believing in God? Ahhh...
 "Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2003 : 14:58:09
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Who created god? Did he/she/it just start out of nothing?
Nobody created God, God is from eternity to eternity, i.e. outside of the scope of time and space.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 01:17:06
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Seems inconsistent that believers in no god have to explain where it all started and believers in god don't.
If god can be forever (with no beginning or end), then can matter be forever without an explanation for how it started? |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 01:26:06
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Seems inconsistent that believers in no god have to explain where it all started and believers in god don't.
If god can be forever (with no beginning or end), then can matter be forever without an explanation for how it started?
No, God and matter are two completely different things, the idea being that God creates and controls matter. If you believe in God, as your hypothesis supposes, then you would believe in creation by God, and therefore the beginning of matter.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 01:41:54
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I think his point was to show the similarity in believing that God OR matter have no beginning or end. Whichever one you believe, you are placing your beliefs in one entity transcending the physical laws that we know to be true. Now, when it comes down to it believing in God is a matter of faith, there's no proof either way as far as humans are concerned. (And, to be sure, there's no proof either in the supremacy of science.) But, a Christian would argue the absurdity of believing that matter has no beginning or end, even though the entirety of their argument would be based in belief in God. There's no other way that they can argue their point. It is no less reasonable to believe in the supremacy of evolution and/or science than it is to believe in God, and there's not really a rational way that a religious person could prove otherwise.
Darwin, I hope I haven't misspoke too badly for you. I was thinking something similar the other day, and you inadvertantly extrapolated on that thought.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 01:48:01
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Fair enough, glacial. I hope I haven't been coming across as saying its my way or the highway. Of course its perfectly reasonable to believe in science, I just choose to believe in a God that invented science.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 06:35:56
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Seems inconsistent that believers in no god have to explain where it all started and believers in god don't.
If god can be forever (with no beginning or end), then can matter be forever without an explanation for how it started?
I guess it's because we don't understand infinity, or rather, we can't even be sure such a thing exists.
Perhaps the problem is we've been looking at it the wrong way... maybe there is no beginning and no end, and time is cyclical. If this were true, then I would start to be able to believe in time travel in the conventional sense.
Anyway, the fact that we can't even come up with a theory that explains the origins of EVERYTHING (if God created everything, where did He come from?) makes it clear that:
a) We're missing a piece in the puzzle.
b) Some fundamental flaw in our thinking or perception hides the truth from us.
c) Something so vast and powerful and significant beyond our wildest imaginations is behind things.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 07:17:46
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Time for...
http://bytebrothers.org/QC-God.htm
God's Total Quality Management Questionnaire!
--
"C'est la vie" whatever that means, la-de-da... |
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Danishboy
- FB Fan -
Denmark
175 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 08:14:52
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What about Odin and Thor?? Last month the aserbelievers got their religion accepted.
We dident always believe in one god, some countries hang christians-priest up in trees and shot arrows at them.
In Denmark we became christians because the King became one.
The story goes that Svend twobeard got captured, and had to pay kingsransom. He could pay it once. But he got captured again and the only ones who would borrow him the money were the church, in return he were forced to become a christian.
Man of steel |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 08:47:11
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| No glacial you didn't misspeak. You said it more clearly than I did. |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 09:11:27
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There is one religion which I think we are all guilty of overlooking. I speak, of course, of the Jedi:
I'm sure the Brit FB.members have come across this but not sure if the rest of you have. Apparently 390,000 people in the UK 2001 census cited 'Jedi' as their religion! The following article explains all:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1-576670,00.html
(interesting also was the fact that 7.7 million out of 52 million people ticked the 'no religion' box. Wonder how this compares to previous year's results?)
Anyway, may the force be with you.
 "I have been enslaved by the Cult of Ming / He is ever so merciless...unlike that nice Mr Black." |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 09:34:14
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Heh, that's awesome.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 10:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
The interesting thing is, if you could prove there WAS a God, what would happen to faith? Would it cease to exist? Is knowing there's a God less powerful than believing in God? Ahhh...
][/i]
Yes, good point. The skeptic could say that an idea of god would work better as myth than as reality, in part because myths are so much more malleable. Illusion can be all things for all people, compatible with an infinitude of preconceptions and prejudices, much as the nonexistent accommodates in a way that the existent cannot. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 11:21:02
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You've read your Aquinas.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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LivER_FisH
- FB Fan -
South Africa
57 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 13:11:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
The interesting thing is, if you could prove there WAS a God, what would happen to faith? Would it cease to exist? Is knowing there's a God less powerful than believing in God? Ahhh...
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened"
i think, knowing is less powerful than believing
think of this, in Christianity it was the quest for knowledge that man was tempted to sin with, the tree of the fruit of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil
So if knowledge was part of the sin, it cant be part of the redemption
faith is required to make the redemption possible
and God cannot be proved by God's choice, to allow for faith |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 13:17:36
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Here's a new facet of this topic:
Why was there such a huge discrepancy in the way that God acted in the Old Testament and the New Testament? In the Old he is very demanding, very temperamental, and would strike you dead at the drop of a hat. It seems like some cruel mind game to me that God led Abraham (if it wasn't Abraham, my apologies. I do own a Bible but due to laziness...) to the point of almost killing his own son as a sacrifice to God. Yes, this was done to make a point, and the child wasn't actually harmed, but that seems a far cry from the loving, encouraging God of the New Testament. I'm not trying to illustrate any point about the religious debate, but has anyone ever wondered this?
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 13:32:36
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I can't answer your question, but it is the story of Isaac & Abraham. If you haven't read Kierkegaard's Fear & Trembling you should. He has some very interesting insights from this particular story.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2003 : 13:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by LivER_FisH
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
The interesting thing is, if you could prove there WAS a God, what would happen to faith? Would it cease to exist? Is knowing there's a God less powerful than believing in God? Ahhh...
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened"
i think, knowing is less powerful than believing
think of this, in Christianity it was the quest for knowledge that man was tempted to sin with, the tree of the fruit of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil
So if knowledge was part of the sin, it cant be part of the redemption
faith is required to make the redemption possible
and God cannot be proved by God's choice, to allow for faith
Ah, that's very interesting. A very interesting perspective on it.
Now let me put this to you: we believe in the absence of knowing. 1 + 1 = 2. We know that. There's no faith required, you've seen the proof a million times, and you know it.
Now say that you believe in the big bang theory. And then, indisputable proof comes along that essentially moves your belief from being grounded in faith to knowledge. Because you can no longer be said to have faith if you KNOW that this is true.
So, if faith is stronger than knowledge, and the only source of redemption, then how is it that knowledge supplants faith at the first opportunity?
Perhaps you could argue that faith is stronger because it exists where knowledge can't - in fact, it is all we have in the absence of knowledge. But then, wouldn't you have to agree that it is only a temporary measure because we don't have knowledge but surely would be better server with it?
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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