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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
 Posted - 11/14/2003 : 10:03:09
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Where to begin, where to begin? Perhaps with the preemptive caveat that I already know I'm an arrogant asshole.
Why would any supreme being make its love and/or a reward of eternal life contingent upon belief in its existence and/or goodness? Believe in me or I won't love you or reward you? How infantile! Or if it will love and reward me anyway, regardless of what I believe, what's the point? Why would any supreme being worthy of the designation give a damn what I believe? Why would any supreme being, let alone a benevolent being, find it appropriate to condemn a "soul" to an eternal fate, good or bad, on the basis of behavior in corporeal form?
How is it that we look at this mostly unfathomable world and somehow think that we demystify it in the least by attributing its existence and wonder to an even less fathomable entity? We see existence as an effect and because of the structure of our brains posit the necessity of some cause, all the while failing to apply the same logic to the cause we posit. How is the world explained by attributing it to an entity even further beyond comprehension? If god caused the world, by that logic mustn't something have caused god? And then some cause beyond that, unto an infinite series of causes, all to explain existence in terms we can understand, as an effect?
As Schopenhauer and Nietzsche observed, the validation of our earthly existence by appeal to a realm beyond is essentially pessimistic and nihilistic about the existence we actually know first hand. "Life is small and worthless, and that is unacceptably scary, so I've got to believe in something greater, something larger, that somehow confers meaning upon my small and worthless existence. Life seems purposeless, but everything must have a purpose. Therefore I must have a purpose, but since I can find no ultimate purpose within my life, that purpose must come from without. Therefore there must be some entity external to my existence that provides an ultimate purpose beyond the intimate purposes that I know only too well." If you ask me, eternal existence would make the perfect punishment for wanting it in the first place.
Then there is of course the "problem of evil". Why would a supreme being take responsibility for such a fucked up mess? Wouldn't it be easier to respect a god that seemed ashamed of such handiwork? And we would have it that this god holds us to higher standards than those to which it apparently holds itself? We're supposed to be good, in all ways that that holds meaning, but it takes CREDIT for this realm of pain and suffering? And it would feel entitled, without providing any justification whatsoever, to condemn entities of its own making to eternal torture on the basis of acts and even beliefs within a brief existence? Just who is the sinner here? But then I shouldn't forget that a god works in mysterious ways. No shit! Yes, all of this is a test, for our own good. It's just god's little way of weeding out the bad souls from the good, or it helps us develop the character traits we'll need for eternity. And just what does one do for eternity? Bliss out? Assist others of god's making toward sharing your own fate, a fate of bliss, or a fate of helping still others? Just what is the fucking point? Isn't heaven just "a place where nothing happens"? And if I'm being too literal about heaven and hell, and reward and punishment, then what difference do beliefs and behavior make anyway? Are you reduced to exercising your faith by alleviating the suffering of those less fortunate, simply because it's the right thing to do or because it's necessary due to the sadistic or incompetent god you somehow think it's meaningful to believe in or even worship?
But then maybe my logic is flawed. Or all logic is flawed. Or human logic is flawed in that it cannot fathom a supreme being that, after all, created logic. Nonetheless, we will be judged in part by how well we employ that flawed logic, won't we? Or we're expected to resist seduction by logic and make the leap of faith, because that's somehow better, by some logic I suppose. Or we make the leap because life sucks, or there must be something more, or we can't accept being mortal, or because life is so big and we're so small and it's all so scary.
So you see, without even getting into a lack of empirical evidence, or attempting to meet an absurd expectation that it is incumbent upon those lacking in faith that they prove a negative, in this case the nonexistence of an entity, there are just a few obstacles to simple faith. And then there's always the little matter of free will.
We're sentient beings on a rock in the middle of an infinite void of space and time, "lost in space, lost in time, and lost in meaning", and if you had your god, it would just be another lonely it in the same predicament, perhaps searching for meaning of its own, praying to god squared.
If there is a god it can have what it has earned: pity and contempt. And it can do with my "immortal soul" whatever it deigns.
Yes, this is all adolescent drivel, but in the sense that the adult is usually one in whom some adolescent spark has died. Yes, I am bitter, depressed, and angry, but not due to these beliefs. Rather, it is the alienation of depression and anger which afford the vantage point from which to observe the more typical human existence, with its all-too-human hopes and fears.
And, yes, I regret this already.
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 10:10:16
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quote:
Originally posted by bedrock_barney
I like this thread. Good debating material - just wish I had more time on my hands to get truly stuck in. Anyway I have been an agnostic for many years and, if anything, I am leaning more towards atheism these days. I see no physical evidence that there is a god and I am quite content with that ‘belief’.
I perceive religion to be a comfort blanket for human beings. In days gone past humans had very little understanding about how the world and the universe worked and this lack of knowledge would clearly have been very frightening. I’m sure my viewpoint would have been radically different if I had been living in 7th C Britain. However, and this is a big however, the incredible advances in technology and dissemination of information over the last say 200 years have removed a lot of the uncertainties that had always existed. I think that a lot of people continue to believe in god because it is the easiest option, just in the way that they will watch crap Saturday night television rather than a hard hitting documentary; or read the The Mirror rather than The Independent. I know these are somewhat crass analogies but they hopefully help get my point across.
I’m certainly not depressed, stupid (although I’m keen on sprouts - see other thread!), or arrogant as some posts have implied. If anything I am intrigued by deeply religious people. We get the occasional Mormon knocking on our door. They are always Americans, extremely polite and well dressed but seemingly unable to properly debate the issue of god’s existence or otherwise. I am seen as a person who needs to be saved and I think that they feel genuinely sorry for me and probably cannot understand how I can be a well adjusted happy person who just happens to not believe in a god.
I am also baffled that there are many people who literally believe the proclamations of the bible are totally correct. In particular the whole god created earth bit. The young earth creationist theories are barmy in this day and age.
The way I look at it, suppose for a moment that there is a God. Think then how foolish your words seem, and although I'm absolutely sure you're not intending to be arrogant, your thoughts have a dogmatism of their own.
To dismiss 'creationists' as completely wrong without possibility of debate is to put yourself on the same level as those 'barmy' types that you so despise.
Also, do you seriously consider a proper Christian life to be the easiest option? If you do, you genuinely have no idea what you're talking about, sorry to be so unequivocal.
Finally, Broken Face, fantastic inclusion of quote there ("My point, if there is one, well sir...". Genius)
 "I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 10:19:24
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well written Erebus and what you're essentially saying is that you don't know anything. That's good, that's my point.
yes, yes, If God is all powerful can he create a rock so heavy that even he can't lift it? You're right, there are no obvious answers; whether that's the point or not - who knows? But we do keep struggling don't we? Why, if we accept that we can never know the truth, do we keep struggling? Why don't we all just give up or kill ourselves? That would make sense. But we don't and we won't.
Free will is an essential element of these arguments and I wish I had time enough to get into them but I have to hit the road. I'm not claiming to know more than anyone here if case that's how I'm coming across. Good points all around; I look forward to reading more when I come home on Sun.
 "I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 11:30:11
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no bedrock, it wasn't a responce, it was just a post to the topic in general - didn't meant to offend if i did (i don't see how...)
-brian
 - "I joined the Cult of Frank / And they tried to cut off my nuts and make me put on a blue jumpsuit"
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 11:34:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
quote:
Originally posted by bedrock_barney
I like this thread. Good debating material - just wish I had more time on my hands to get truly stuck in. Anyway I have been an agnostic for many years and, if anything, I am leaning more towards atheism these days. I see no physical evidence that there is a god and I am quite content with that ‘belief’.
I perceive religion to be a comfort blanket for human beings. In days gone past humans had very little understanding about how the world and the universe worked and this lack of knowledge would clearly have been very frightening. I’m sure my viewpoint would have been radically different if I had been living in 7th C Britain. However, and this is a big however, the incredible advances in technology and dissemination of information over the last say 200 years have removed a lot of the uncertainties that had always existed. I think that a lot of people continue to believe in god because it is the easiest option, just in the way that they will watch crap Saturday night television rather than a hard hitting documentary; or read the The Mirror rather than The Independent. I know these are somewhat crass analogies but they hopefully help get my point across.
I’m certainly not depressed, stupid (although I’m keen on sprouts - see other thread!), or arrogant as some posts have implied. If anything I am intrigued by deeply religious people. We get the occasional Mormon knocking on our door. They are always Americans, extremely polite and well dressed but seemingly unable to properly debate the issue of god’s existence or otherwise. I am seen as a person who needs to be saved and I think that they feel genuinely sorry for me and probably cannot understand how I can be a well adjusted happy person who just happens to not believe in a god.
I am also baffled that there are many people who literally believe the proclamations of the bible are totally correct. In particular the whole god created earth bit. The young earth creationist theories are barmy in this day and age.
The way I look at it, suppose for a moment that there is a God. Think then how foolish your words seem, and although I'm absolutely sure you're not intending to be arrogant, your thoughts have a dogmatism of their own.
To dismiss 'creationists' as completely wrong without possibility of debate is to put yourself on the same level as those 'barmy' types that you so despise.
Also, do you seriously consider a proper Christian life to be the easiest option? If you do, you genuinely have no idea what you're talking about, sorry to be so unequivocal.
Finally, Broken Face, fantastic inclusion of quote there ("My point, if there is one, well sir...". Genius)
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
Ah...what we have here is the classic problem. Words being taken out of context and such like. I said that young earth creationism is a barmy concept. I have spent many an hour reading through the very interesting letters and articles on the Talk Origin website where you will find a definition of young earth creationism. i.e. that the earth was created by god no more than about 6,000 years ago. The scientific evidence for refuting this claim is massively comprehensive. Old earth creationism is much more of a genuinely debatable concept. I also think that you are wrong to use the word 'despise' in your post. Where do I imply that strong emotion in my post? This is the problem with debating such fundemental subjects. I am in my camp, you are in yours. Neither of us will budge.
You have also made a leap in logic regarding my 'easiest' statement. I was talking about the concept of belief not the way people lead their lives. What is a 'proper' christian life? I maintain that believing in something is very easy but I agree that leading a decent morally sound life is something that is a challenge in these modern times where we are surrounded in materialism, inequality, prejudice etc. Without needing to be defined as a Christian I still abide by the important principles of the 10 commandments.
Also, going back to your first paragraph, I am not concerned in the slightest that there may be a god. If there is one then I hardly think that he/she would be particularly interested in making me look foolish or not.
I think I'll drop back onto threads relating to favourite foods etc. Less brain power required!! |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 11:37:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face
no bedrock, it wasn't a responce, it was just a post to the topic in general - didn't meant to offend if i did (i don't see how...)
-brian
- "I joined the Cult of Frank / And they tried to cut off my nuts and make me put on a blue jumpsuit"
Glad to hear it. I'd hate to think that people thought I was 'attacking' their beliefs and ideals. I am more than happy to engage in sensible debate. |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 11:58:41
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
quote:
Originally posted by bedrock_barney
I see no physical evidence that there is a god and I am quite content with that ‘belief’.
I perceive religion to be a comfort blanket for human beings. In days gone past humans had very little understanding about how the world and the universe worked and this lack of knowledge would clearly have been very frightening. I’m sure my viewpoint would have been radically different if I had been living in 7th C Britain. However, and this is a big however, the incredible advances in technology and dissemination of information over the last say 200 years have removed a lot of the uncertainties that had always existed. I think that a lot of people continue to believe in god because it is the easiest option
bedrock barney, I don't mean to attack you personally and certainly didn't meant to say that you were stupid or arrogant. With that disclaimer I have to say that your post is very interesting especially given that my roomate and I were discussing your exact way of thinking just last night.
I'm starting to read "A Brief History of Time" and in it there's a part about an old woman who stands up at a lecture on the Universe and says, "The world in on a turtle's back." The lecturer smiles somewhat mockingly and says, "and what's underneath the turtle?" She says, "It's turtles all the way down," and he had no reply. The point here is that you put too much faith in what you know and even in what you might know. What you percieve to be advances in knowledge are pathetic and haven't even begun to scratch the surface. A big problem with adamant non-believers today is that they feel our greater intelligence must somehow change our views on God. "People were ignorant ages ago and had no choice but to believe in God; surely we must be above such primitive thinking today." That is arrogance and assumes that we are somehow becoming enlightened. Many things have changed and yet God has remained a constant. We haven't yet any reason not to believe and will probably not survive long enough to find such proof even if it does exists. Rather than call yourself an Atheist why not just say you don't know as there is no proof either way? Why the need to take sides? Saying you're an Atheist (and I'm speaking to no one in particular here) because there is no proof of the existence of God is patently stupid as there is no proof of the nonexistence of God.
In any event, believing in God might be a comfort blanket but it might very well not be and ridicule should be reserved for an age when it is justified, otherwise atheists are simply making pompous asses of themselves.
Again, this wasn't directed at anyone and I don't mean to offend anyone or their beliefs but merely meant to illustrate that claiming to know anything for sure immediately makes you a fool.
Interstingly however, Carl Jung did say that he didn't need to have faith in God because he knew God existed. What a statement - how foolish.
Rowan Atkinson as the Devil in hell: Atheists? Atheists are you here? Yes, well aren't you feeling a right bunch of asses?
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye"
Scutor, don't worry, no attacking going on. Remember you posted before me! I'm also not saying that categorically there is no god. I don't have the proof. I suppose I am part agnostic/part atheist if there is such a thing. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 12:02:36
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Being able to disprove creationism has nothing to do with proving whether or not there is a God. The vast majority of Christians in the world have reconciled with Science. Go back to the big bang if you like, a believer says that it was God who created the big bang. No scientist can dispute the origins of the universe being created by God. Period. Evolution could absolutely have been instigated via a divine plan. Science and religion can co-exist (and do).
However, some people dispute creationism and then make the massive leap to conclude that no creationism = no God. One might call it a leap of faith, but, no reason for faith if there is no God, so, lets just call it arrogance.
Jesus Christ lived. Period. That is a historical fact. Many of his deeds outlined in the new testament can be proven historically as well. His birth, many of his travels, his crucifixion can all be proven. I personally believe that Christ was who he said he was in his time on earth.
Funny argument about faith in God being a 'security blanket' or somesuch for humans. That is one explanation. But, another argument is, why does their faith give them that feeling? That warmth? That sense of hope or forgiveness? It is in our DNA to respond to religious imagery?
I would love for everyone to see the recap of a study done that was done in Chicago (I believe) by a couple of atheist Cancer Dr's. They were more than a bit put off by the fact that so much of their patients time/hopes were wrapped up in religious hopes and dreams. They sought to disprove the effectiveness of prayer in healing. So, they had strangers in another state pray for certain patients. It was a double-blind study. The patients didnt know who was being prayed for and the prayers didnt know the names or anything about those for whom they were praying. Some of the patients believed in the power of prayer, others were agnostic. The Dr's were astonished to find that the prayed for group had a much higher success and healing rate than the non-prayed for group. I dont remember the specifics but the skeptical Dr's themselves called the results conclusive and not within the bounds of normal error.
What does that mean? It means that we aren't even close to understanding our relationship with God or how our physical well being or the physical well being of others can be affected by Prayer or even positive thoughts from afar.
So I guess my point is that anyone who says that there is no God is doing so based on their own faith that none exists. Their own belief system. No facts, none, anywhere, prove that there is no God. Atheists have chosen one faith (the faith that no God exists) over another one (that there is a God). No more no less. |
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MangyKid
- FB Fan -
170 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 12:20:02
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Damn, you people right a lot about something that is impossible to know. I'm a big fence sitter, I believe that it could easily be either way, there is a god or isn't. I find some religions ludicrous, but they could very well be true for all I know. Pretty arrogant of anyone to say there definitely is or isn't a god. Well, guess I'll find out when I die, which makes me hope there is a god, better something than nothing.
Or you can just go with aliens for god. That one sounds good, maybe I'll do that. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 13:03:22
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
well written Erebus and what you're essentially saying is that you don't know anything. That's good, that's my point.
yes, yes, If God is all powerful can he create a rock so heavy that even he can't lift it? You're right, there are no obvious answers; whether that's the point or not - who knows? But we do keep struggling don't we? Why, if we accept that we can never know the truth, do we keep struggling? Why don't we all just give up or kill ourselves? That would make sense. But we don't and we won't.
Why do we keep going? At one level because our happiness doesn't depend on the answer. On an evolutionary level because the ones that keep going produce offspring and their offspring inherit the "drive" to keep going.
What is the meaning of life? Gene replication (I believe). We're just vessels working for the genes. Is that depressing? Not to me. To me it's beautiful. It's beautiful that a simple algorithm (natural selection) produced the complex patterns of our world. |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 13:13:28
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| Very succinctly put Darwin. I'm quite happy being a vessel...and a father to two lovely children. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 14:03:07
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Wow..i missed an awesome go here...nice arguments everyone.
Erebus - great post at the top of this page. I generally disagree with you thoroughly (a few statements in the first few of your posts in the threads i find completely outrageous), but i find this quite brilliant.
"we would have it that this god holds us to higher standards than those to which it apparently holds itself?"
So simple, yet so true. Never thought about this, but i find it quite profound.
Sad that there's so little response to your posting.
As with BB, i'm agnostic with athiest leanings.
As for that 'warmth' people get from faith...i'd argue that maybe it's suggestion. You're told this is how you're supposed to feel, and you want to fit in, and so your brain creates this feeling for you, so you can further 'fit in'. People will lie as well. Or perhaps just mistake a feeling of community and acceptance as a 'gods warmth'.
It's my belief that 'god' is about as likely as dragons and unicorns...and that all are human creations. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 14:05:15
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Just wanna add an 'or'.
Or, god is not what anyone is expecting, nor has described. |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 14:13:14
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You're quite correct Dave N. Erebus deserves some considered replies but it's getting late and I've started on the old red wine so reasoned argument is leaving me quickly. Will have a proper read through tomorrow.
Anyone else like to chip in? Where's Cheeseman when you need him - you've got to keep your posting average up old boy. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 14:26:34
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| Thanks Dave. Be butting heads with you soon enough, I'm sure. |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 15:01:34
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| Erebus old friend, it's been a while. How are you? I enjoyed your post. I must say, I agree. I've always found it strange that so many look to religion as way to ensure prosperity in the next life, often at the expense of this one. Makes no sense to me. But what do I know, I'm just a heathen. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 15:04:15
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| a heathen hey? |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 15:07:52
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| Sure. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 16:37:29
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quote:
Originally posted by speedy_m
Erebus old friend, it's been a while. How are you? I enjoyed your post. I must say, I agree. I've always found it strange that so many look to religion as way to ensure prosperity in the next life, often at the expense of this one. Makes no sense to me. But what do I know, I'm just a heathen.
Hi speedy. How am I? Feeling just a bit blasphemous, but not bad for a bitter, depressed, and angry curmudgeon. Sheepish but not flock-worthy. Recently returned from a vacation in southern Utah and northern Arizona. Not quite forty days but almost enough to put me on the path to god. Sooo beautiful. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 16:57:34
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quote:
Originally posted by bedrock_barney
You're quite correct Dave N. Erebus deserves some considered replies but it's getting late and I've started on the old red wine so reasoned argument is leaving me quickly. Will have a proper read through tomorrow.
Anyone else like to chip in? Where's Cheeseman when you need him - you've got to keep your posting average up old boy.
Sorry, I was spending my time usefully, i.e. watching Maid In Manhattan. Hmm...
To be honest, I don't know how to respond to some of the big theological and philosophical arguments put across in this topic. Although I understand little of this subject (as can probably be ascertained from the incoherent warblings of my previous posts!), I try to simplify things.
I have never come across any sort of reasonable proof that God does not exist. I find that physical evidence is actually to the contrary.
I can't explain, either, the 'warmth', the arrogance, whatever you want to call it that comes from believing in God, I think its something that can only be experienced to be fully understood.
I'd also like to add my 'uber-Christian' bit: I don't think that simply believing that there is a God constitutes faith in that God (although I am not familiar with every belief pattern, obviously). Most of you will be aware that to become a Christian, one must be 'saved'. By this I mean the John 3:16 bit, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him may not die but have eternal life." Sorry to have to quote the Bible at you, but it's key to understanding the Christian philosophy.
Essentially, this means that God's son sacrificed his own life to make it possible for those who trust him to have eternal life (i.e. in heaven, btw, not on earth). Its all related to sacrifice, and sins being forgiven etc., the holiness of God and all. I think that possibly some of you have forgotten that this all sums up to something very different to a simple belief in a potential supreme being. It also explains how the Christian faith is so much more than a set of do's and do not's, and how the ten commandments, while being an excellent starting point, do not constitute the whole of the religion.
To sum up, I would say that the very concept of God is unfathomable, and that human minds, while being an incredibly complex creation, are limited in what they can understand. However, I think the capabilities are there in every person to understand enough to grasp the basic principles of Christianity.
I'm really sorry to be preaching at you like this, I'm sure its the last thing you want to hear on a Friday night. I just thought I'd clarify a few details that might be important.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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guy_nolan
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
417 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 17:52:46
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Ok Im gonna go with ebb vicious's trick of not reading any of the before stuff and just jumping straight in with my comment :) I was raised as a catholic but could tell from an early age that it really wasnt for me. Blind faith is a quality i definitely do not posess, im not saying its a bad thing and I do believe that a little blind faith is good sometimes but unfortunately I just cant fall for a smoke and mirrors act. Ill believe in a god when i see him. In many ways I envy people so strnogly connected to their faith, my family being southern Irish I have some older auntys and a grandma who goes to church every week without fail and I totally respect that if shes going for her own love of christ. What pisses me off though is the way the catholic religion 'bullys' its members into worship. I honestly don't believe that if you dont pray your going to hll. In whatever form. Nor do i belive that if your bad all your life you'll be reincarnated as a kids tv presenter or some other horrible fate youll probably just end up in the same place as everyone else, the ground, or ashes or whatever. Personally if i can afford it i think ill go into chryogenics myself. What does piss me off though is those people who stand in the high street shouting 'repent or your children will burn' but on second thoughts without those types we probably wouldn't have songs like caribou in our collections, so theres a purpose for everthing i guess. As scienctific knowledge increases Im sure the religions of most developed countrys will be phased out. Im still trying to decide whether that's a good thing or not. Maybe some people need that fear just to keep them out of crime or whatever. I don't as I go on the basic principle of don't do shit to other people that you wouldn't do to yourself. Probably the smartest parable or whatever that the bible has to offer. I think if civilistation went by that rule in generaly we'd all be ok. As for the original point of this dissucssion i think the court guy should be allowed to keep the ten commandments on his wall as basically, even if a little dated the messages conveyed by them still make snese. Fuck it everybody should be aloowed to do what they want as long their not hurting any body else. We just need to develop that tolerance and we'll all be ok. Forgive me if I've repeated myself or if im talking crap but I'm a little drunk. :) Well it is friday night :)
For ten thousand years he slept, his mind feeding on the nightmares of the weak. Now he has awakened. As the night turned crimson, the fire-blade shattered and his power died. Then, the slaughter began... |
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paintmeister
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 21:50:18
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It is kind of amazing to me the amount of people that do not believe in God and argue that there is no such being but have never done any actual research on the subject. The main source for this research would be the Bible, which is called the word of God.
I am currently on a strange fence. I do believe that Cheeseman clearly posed the Christian philosophy rather well. On the other hand, I struggle with eternal damnation, in which Erebus also had a very valid point and many other points worth pondering.
In the commandment "Thou shalt not kill", the Hebrew language is meaning the shedding of innocent blood. If you have read any parts of the Old Testament, people in the tribes of Israel were stoned to death for committing adultery and other offenses. That is a little tidbit I came across that, I think, sheds a whole different light on that commandment.
It seems that we live in a "tolerant" society that can tolerate just about everything, but when it comes to anything that has to do with God or Christianity that is something that cannot be tolerated.
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 23:46:30
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Ahhh yes..interpretation. Since we all read something and it is altered by our individual experiences and patterns, how is it possible there can be 'one true path'?
Really, assuming Xianity is 'it', how the hell is anyone supposed to know which 'version' to join?
And what if you're born somewhere that Xians can't access, you're simply headed for eternal damnation?
That sounds more to me like a way to guilt people into doing what you want, not a 'path to eternal peace'. |
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ObfuscateByWill
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1887 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 04:51:50
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
[quote]
I think it's great (it's a bad thing when a judge ignores a court ruling), but he'll probably turn around and win an elected office.
Chief Justice is an elected office.
I don't think there is anything in Alabama aw prohibiting him from running for Chief Justice again.
--
Sorry if this has been posted already. I've only read the first page.
*Shka-pow! |
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miguel
- FB Fan -
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 04:57:33
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Knowing whether there is a god seems like yet another power struggle that humans feel they have to win. I have no idea and I don't really care.
The concept of god to me seems like a brilliant but simple control mechanism naturally created by our ancestors to help empower and organize ourselves. It seems logical, look at human nature. We're constanly trying to find ways to break new ground at faster and faster speeds on many different plains. There was a time when all we had was the unknown. How does a being start to rationalize it's surroundings through time? Especially when there's a sun above your head that will blind you if you look at it and there are connect the dot stars at night that twinkle. Look at all the ways humanity has tried to rationalize the unknown.. astrology, mythological creatures, aliens.. Just look at all the extremes that people have come up with through time to explain things.. from sacrificing children to commiting suicide when the mother ship comes(remember those heavens gate freaks?). From that first moment when one realizes there is a power stronger than itself, like the sun, it tries to rationalize what that could be. Do people really believe that moses parted the water...? I tend to believe it's all hocus pocus, and my opinion is based upon history and life experience. I think the reality is that humanity is like a virus and the real race now is to see whether we can get control of ourselves before we self destruct. Why can't the universe be a infinant natural phenomenon? I mean there's dimensions to consider and so much we have no clue about. God is a crutch and death is probably overrated, don't build yorself up about it and you won't be let down.. It's all pretty futile, pick a religion. Who's right? How about nobody. The mind is a powerful thing.. I'm too tired to go on. This wasn't directed at anyone in particular.. just me rambling.
"... it's a pill, that gives worms... to exgirlfriends.. you just don't get it"
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 07:36:32
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There's some slightly Matrix-esque ideas in there, you probably watch too many movies .
I would say take a look at my earlier post. The concept of God is a different thing to faith in that God.
Plus, Guy, people have been trying to phase religion out ever since the beginning. Look at the last two hundred years especially. With scientists proclaiming left, right and centre that their theory is definitive (that is, until its disproved), you'd think Christianity, especially, would be on its last legs. Not a bit of it, unfortunately for you. Its stronger in some places than its ever been, which by "rational, scientific logic" would disprove your theory that science will phase religion out.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 09:17:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
There's some slightly Matrix-esque ideas in there, you probably watch too many movies.
I would say take a look at my earlier post. The concept of God is a different thing to faith in that God.
Plus, Guy, people have been trying to phase religion out ever since the beginning. Look at the last two hundred years especially. With scientists proclaiming left, right and centre that their theory is definitive (that is, until its disproved), you'd think Christianity, especially, would be on its last legs. Not a bit of it, unfortunately for you. Its stronger in some places than its ever been, which by "rational, scientific logic" would disprove your theory that science will phase religion out.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
This is something that I always hear. "Evolutionary scientists always try to disprove the existence of God and subject the world to believe in nothingness," and the like. Maybe in past times this was true, but religion has also traditionally done it's damndest to phase reason out as well, even to later be forced to say, "oh, I guess Kepler or Copernicus was right..." Who nowadays would think that the concept that the earth is not the center of the universe is dangerous knowledge? It was heretical to the people living during the Middle Ages, because it threatened their convictions.
Also, not all scientists try to push their beliefs on people, only bad ones or ones that focus too much on proving it to people rather than carrying on future research. I have mostly heard all of the persuasive arguments come from creationists, who need constant validation from others that their faith is not unfounded. Why else would they spend so much time and effort on trying to simply argue their point? It's not going to change anything...we could sit here all day and debate, and neither one of us might come out of it any different than we had gone in. But, most Christians who have any form of media coercion at their disposal (i.e. Pat Robertson, etc) use it to try to convince the masses of the ignorance and falsehoods of evolutionary scientists, or those who believe in the Big Bang. (Which is in controversy right now, I am not saying I believe in it or no...) Carl Sagan, Steven Hawking and others from what I've heard did not focus on squabbling with the creationists about how the latter was wrong, they just went on about their research and collected knowledge for the general public's awareness -- you don't have to agree or disagree, but it is always best to know both sides, right?
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 09:27:37
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BTW, Cheeseman, you seem like a cool guy and I hope my message didn't come across as rude or offensive. I actually believe in "god" or a creator of some sort, I just think it's kind of naive to think that we have already deciphered many of the complex aspects of God in our churches. "Okay," Catholics might say, "we KNOW that God likes it when you're baptized in our faith, and all the other religions have some of the details wrong, but most of them are okay in our book because they're similar. However, God chose us in particular to impart the real, exact truth to." And Protestants and Baptists and Mormons and Jews and everyone else all thinks the same thing, usually basing ALL this from centuries worth of different interpretations of one book! God to me still is somewhat humanized, in a much less dramatic way than the ancient Romans and even still-more-ancient Greeks with their pantheon of superior beings, but still humanized nonetheless. There's too many things that I think Christians or Atheists just don't know and cannot understand (except from a deep, illogical conviction known as faith) to proclaim that 1.) God is like he is in all the Christian denominations or, 2.) God does not exist.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 09:31:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
There's some slightly Matrix-esque ideas in there, you probably watch too many movies.
Hey, that's pretty close to true - the "Matrixy" part - the movie's philosophy (if it can be ascribed one after the awful -IMHO- sequel) is loosely based on Gnosticism. Interestingly enough, if my research/learnin' is correct, the founding fathers of the US were mainly Gnostics.
 "I partied with the Cult of Frank / Bob ate all the dip" |
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Hordak
- FB Fan -
USA
180 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 10:57:23
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You guys got it all wrong, man...God is in the machine!
 My wife has a split personality, and I hate both of them.
-- Anon |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 16:03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
[brAlso, not all scientists try to push their beliefs on people, only bad ones or ones that focus too much on proving it to people rather than carrying on future research.
OK, you've made a good point here. I would definitely add that there are good Christians and bad Christians, although I wouldn't dare to attempt to differentiate. I certainly wouldn't want to associate myself with Earth as the centre of the Universe crew of the Middle Ages.
You're also right about denominational differences being related to interpretations of the Bible. The way I see it, the fundamental truths are the same in most Christian denominations (although, without wishing to offend anyone, I think there are some serious, i.e. non-Biblical errors in Catholic doctrine), its simply different interpretations of doctrinal points. That is, we all believe in the same God, we all have faith etc. in that God, we just choose to worship in different ways.
For myself, I spend quite a bit of time reading the Bible, and making sure that I do not do anything which would go against it. I know for sure that I'm not perfect in this respect, but who can honestly claim that? The church I belong to makes a key point of following Biblical precedent in every way possible, with the intention of being a church as God wants us to be. I'm sure we fall well short of that high standard, but thats our goal.
quote:
I actually believe in "god" or a creator of some sort, I just think it's kind of naive to think that we have already deciphered many of the complex aspects of God in our churches.
I see where you're coming from with this point, but I have to emphasise the fact that its not the churches doing the deciphering, its people doing the interpreting. The intention of the Bible is to be exactly enough information for us to live, have faith and know God. How people understand some of the more cryptic/metaphorical sections is what causes the division, but the fundamental truths, as I said before, are clear and straightforward. It is, after all, directly from God (straight to your nearest bookstore!)
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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miguel
- FB Fan -
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 20:54:42
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Hey... my name is not GUY. It's Janet.. and it's Jackson if your nasty.
"... it's a pill, that gives worms... to exgirlfriends.. you just don't get it"
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 21:16:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
we all believe in the same God
I wonder if that is really true, with different interpretations of the Bible and each person's individual perspective; once there is a difference in the way that God is interpreted (through his written word or through doctrine) it all becomes shades of grey - to my feeble mind, anyway.
I'm not sure what in the world I would be considered. I see validity in many religions, yet I don't really believe any particular dogma. It's a mind set that I find pretty difficult to explain in a few paragraphs. I've been trying to get there, though.
edit: added- Has anybody here read the Nag Hammadi? The Gnostic teachings of Jesus?
"I partied with the Cult of Frank / Bob ate all the dip" |
Edited by - apl4eris on 11/15/2003 21:23:29 |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2003 : 21:34:18
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I completly disagree with the idea that this country was founded on Christian principles. I take issue with any Christian who says it was simply based on the fact that nearly every one of the Constitution's authors and signers was a slave owner. How's that for Christian principles? This country was meant to be a place where people could escape from religious tyranny.
As for removing God from the pledge, I think we have better things to worry about. If it said "One nation under Jesus", then we've got problems, but just saying "God" to me is including everyone except atheists and agnostics. God can be Vishnu, God can be Mohammad, God can be Brahman, I don't understand why people who don't believe in God get so bent on imposing their non-beliefs on others. I personally don't give a rat's ass if someone else chooses to believe in God so long as they don't use it to impose on my way of life. If I had a kid, I wouldn't care if they were forced to say "One nation under God" in school because they're just words to an Atheist. If you're a Christian and you deny believing in God, you better watch your ass, but if you're an Atheist and you deny NOT believing in God, who gives a shit?
I went to high school in rural PA and was forced to attend mandatory assemblies that had Christian speakers and sometimes subversive, multi-media presentations that weren't outright religious, but that featured Christian music and Christian principles. I had Jewish friends who were yelled at and abused by teachers and school administrators for wanting to leave these assemblies. I have other friends who were given similar treatment for wanting to skip Baccalaureate. Then there's the annual Christmas chorus concert featuring a full hour of Christian song, no mention of any other religions, and a full re-enactment of the nativity tableau. I'd rather have these infringements on separation of church and state taken care of before worrying about a pledge which frankly hardly ever gets rectited these days anyhow.
I have some interesting quotes from our fore-fathers regarding their disdain for Christianity. I'll have to dig them up and post them later, they're in a box somewhere...
"Join the Cult of Clootie / and you'll get more booty!" www.mp3.com/clootie |
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LivER_FisH
- FB Fan -
South Africa
57 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 11:39:10
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well if you take out the guidelines of the bible you can establish your own
and assuming the bible was inspired by God (which i believe) then they are just making up new laws to suit themselves and dont want Gods laws becuz they're too "strict" but in reality they are not too strict and people are just getting more and more sinful (nudity on family tv?)
but that guy shoulda taken them down cuz the bible does say you have to submit to the authorities (give ceasar what belongs to ceasar - in reference to paying taxes)
denominations were invented by man and now they are starting to faulter (allowing homosexuality which God hates [God hates the sin not the sinner]) there are no denominations in the bible, as a church you should stick to the bible and not add or subtract ur own traditions (candles in the bible?... also meantioned swearing on the bible, that's just wack)
God won't bless america while it's rejecting his sovereignety (which it is)
(listen to 'Rise Against - Blood red, white & blue)
and finaly... man's not smart enough to invent God, why is religion all over the world even in places where civilization has never been to, becuz it's impossible to deny the existance of God if you look at the order in the universe (respective to disorder), if u put ten numbers in a hat the chances of pulling them out in order are 1 to over a billion, order is not natural, God must have created it, and if he is God he can create anything right, like things that seem to be millions of years old |
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