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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
 Posted - 11/12/2003 : 15:09:57
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Oh my goodness, so much misinformation about extended breastfeeding! I think y'all will find that a lot more people do this than you might think.
Y'know folks, the average worldwide weaning age is 4.5 years, and that's with the "westernized" world dragging the average down. Nobody bats an eye at a four year-old kid with a pacifier or an obsessive attachment to a blanket or a doll, but folks will call the cops if they catch you nursing a toddler who's just bonked her head and needs some comfort. Little people find a lot of comfort in cuddling and nursing, and the dominant parenting method in this country seems hell-bent on "baby-training" that focuses on making babies "convenient" instead of allowing them to have their needs for attachment and affection met when they're small. Look at any four year-old and tell me that the kid, however smart, isn't still at least 75% baby. I don't understand this rush to make children independent creatures when they're not wired that way.
Anyway, when my daughter was born I read everything I could get my hands on about attachment & breastfeeding and came to the conclusion that I would let her wean herself when she was damned good and ready, figuring that a need for attachment met in infancy wouldn't be one that would keep popping up later in her life in the form of various psychological dysfunctions. Sure enough, she continued to nurse on and off, w/decreasing frequency, until she was four. As she got older, we confined nursing to home so as to not offend the delicate sensibilities of people who get the notions of sex boobs & food boobs all confused. It was a comfort to her when she was sick/hurt/sad/sleepy and made her much easier to parent during those frustrating toddler years. She was old enough when she weaned to remember it with fondness and we'll always have happy memories of that time. I have no regrets, and I see the payoff of my decision every day in the form of an curious, independent, secure and very happy child. She's gotten what she needs and now she's ready to take on the world. I'm not saying that it's right for everyone, but it worked for our family, and I know many happy pairs of mamas with older nurslings.
 "I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
Edited by - mereubu on 11/12/2003 15:11:43 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 15:23:05
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| Mere, how do people not lose their milk with the decreasing frequency of nursing? |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 15:44:04
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Well, when they do it for that long it's not for food, anyway. You're more like a human pacifier. I would actually ask Z that--I'd say, "Look, why bother? Is there even anything left there?" She'd just smile and say, "Yup, a little." And also, at that point, she wouldn't nurse for more than about a minute --just kind of a hey-I'm checking-in-and-recharging-my-batteries kind of thing. Then whoosh! she'd be gone. Towards the end I think the milk was pretty much gone and she got busy enough with her big-girl things that she lost interest. (Thank god! I'm glad I did it, but it took a lot of patience. It's nice to be able to buy clothes without having to think "Will I be able to nurse in this?" Also, those nursing bras will sometimes just randomly pop open on their own at the most inconvenient public moments imaginable. Damned things.)
An additional weird factoid--you can still make small amounts of milk up to six months after weaning. One theory is that other species don't maintain such close contact with their offspring after weaning, but just the everyday stuff of cuddling and being around kids keeps the hormones going for a while.
I meant to add earlier and forgot, but I was surprised to find that even initially hostile family members eventually came around and were cool with it. I mean, they couldn't argue with the fact that she was nice to be around and hardly ever had tantrums. Also, the nursing hormones kept me kind of mellow and patient, which sure came in handy.
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 16:12:48
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Wow, Stella lost interest round about her first birthday. At first I thought, what a relief, but i did indeed miss it. My attitude about Sammy will be that we'll just go until he loses interest.
Heck, mere, there's some people around me who are freaked out that I'm nursing NOW. Its why there's such a thing as BF nazis -- we almost need to be just to do what the rest of the world considers natural. Right now there's a big to-do because some woman at a Burger King was asked to quit nursing or leave. BK issued a lame ass reply, but you'd be amazed (or maybe you wouldn't) at the "controversy" it's caused.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!" |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 16:13:03
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| You know what else, is that those nursing hormones are passed on to baby. A-Belle's doctor showed me that she was lactating because of them. I thought that was so weird. |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 16:53:32
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Oh yeah, that's weird. Sometimes newborns lactate (the old wives' name for it is "witches' milk!") b/c of all the mama hormones they've absorbed. Still, though, I guess it's normal. If weird.
Blackpurse, I think it just depends on the baby. I have friends whose mellow babies gladly weaned themselves around a year and others (myself included) whose high-needs babies seemed as though they might be on the boob until college.
I certainly got my share of freaked-out stares when I was nursing Z as a teeny-tiny infant! What on earth do people think breasts are for in the first place? I was always very discreet, but you can tell that some folks are mighty uncomfortable. Even my mother & mother-in-law (who were both nursing mothers back in the day) would say, "Wait--she just nursed! It's not time again! You keep nursing her like that and you'll lose your milk supply!" Like they had no concept of its being a supply-and-demand sort of relationship. Sheesh.
I remember reading that a woman was kicked out of a Borders for nursing her baby there. Management suggested that she would be "more comfortable" doing it in the bathroom and informed her that "she was making other patrons uncomfortable." For freak's sake! No one would suggest that an adult go eat in a public bathroom.
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
Edited by - mereubu on 11/12/2003 16:58:26 |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 17:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
My daughter breastfeed for 3+ years and my son probably will as well. We had a weaning party for her when it was time and the transition was rather smooth. She's now a healthy, smart, fairly well adjusted kid.
People will spend ridiculous money buying their kids educational toys and videos, sending their kids to high-scale preschools and camps, but then they can't be bothered to feed their kids what is best for them (breast milk).
That's so sweet--we had a weaning party too. Z invited her friends and was so proud. For about a week, she'd tell anyone who listened that she was "all weaned" and ready for big girl things. Do you guys do the co-sleeping thing?
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 20:08:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Even animals know that the child has to be weened at some point to allow it to survive independantly.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened"
Dean, I think it's adorable that you spelled it "weened." Your musical tastes will belie you at every turn! I may have to start calling you Deen. :-P
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 20:24:23
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Hahahaha <cough cough hack> haha <cough groan>. Mui sick.
Glad that you didn't take what Deener was talking about personally, mere (or anyone hopefully). Just threw out my opinion on the concept of breastfeeding to the masses. I would never give you a second look (maybe a check-out of those famed sweater cows, but... :)) for breastfeeding publically because I think it's the right thing to do. Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again, Z's pretty darned awesome, so maybe I'm wrong or maybe it's different for different people.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5452 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 22:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by mereubu
That's so sweet--we had a weaning party too. Z invited her friends and was so proud. For about a week, she'd tell anyone who listened that she was "all weaned" and ready for big girl things. Do you guys do the co-sleeping thing?
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon"
Thanks for the support. I liked your stats about the average weaning age worldwide. I wonder what the weaning age in the US was 50 or 100 years ago. What seems strange today (nursing a 3 year old) was probably pretty common before WW II.
I never dreamed that the weaning would be so smooth for us. After the party my daughter only asked to nurse once or twice and never with much conviction.
We did do the co-sleep thing with my daughter and will probably continue to do it with my son (5 months old). Overall it has been a good thing for us (particularly with my wife nursing at night), but unlike weaning we had a long and sometimes annoying transition of moving our daughter into her own room. We also made the mistake of being too involved in her bedtime routine. Lying down, telling stories, and snuggling her to sleep was very nice and I'll never forget how sweet she was, but it became a real drag doing it every night. Hopefully, with kid number two we'll find a better balance.
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 22:43:02
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Well said Sarah - thanks!
And all the more power to you breast-feeding women. I'm fairly confident that a lot of people's personal problems begin right there.
4yrs seems a pretty normal/natural timespan.
Just outta curiosity, how long to our primate cousins go for? That's prolly a good marker for us.. |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 09:49:32
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I checked out some research by anthropologist Katherine Dettwyler. She studied primate weaning ages with an eye towards figuring out when humans, stripped of cultural influence, might wean if left to their own devices. Looks like most primates wean their young when the first permanent molars erupt. In human children, that would be around 5.5 years. She also observes that the immune system isn't fully developed until around 6 years; nursing offers a certain degree of immune protection even into the toddler years. Six years feels a little old to me, but again, I've had a fair amount of cultural interference. :-) I imagine that if we were still living in tents & caves it wouldn't seem like a particularly big deal.
If anyone's interested, here's a link to an article on the weaning process in a historical context: http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleaderweb/LV/LVDecJan0001p112.html
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5452 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 13:13:48
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| Age of weaning also depends on the interbirth interval. When a new mammal baby comes along the older one has to get out of the way. So, how long non-human primates nurse depends how long it takes a new baby to show up. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 14:16:27
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Thanks Sarah..interesting! Something as simple as devices making it possible to eat normally (molars)..heh..
I think a mom can easily nurse two kids, eh? (Well, maybe not 'easily', but easily enough..?) |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 14:19:31
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Hey now you have 5 cats.
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1602 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 14:21:53
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I wanna have a baby (with a lot of help from my wife :) ) one of these days so forgive me if I sound babyless as of now but seriously 3 year olds and 4 year olds still nursing from the breast?
Really? |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 14:23:59
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Ooh, congrats Dave! You're my only hope of ever unseating Dean.
I actually have a friend right now who is engaged in the process of "tandem nursing" her 19-month old & new infant. The toddler just wasn't ready to let go yet w/out a fight, so when the new baby is done, she comes in and bats cleanup. It seems to be working for them and some people are able to do it successfully, but it looks mighty tiring to me. To each her own. (And better her than me!)
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 14:29:50
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quote:
Originally posted by the swimmer
I wanna have a baby (with a lot of help from my wife :) ) one of these days so forgive me if I sound babyless as of now but seriously 3 year olds and 4 year olds still nursing from the breast?
Really?
Yup, sometimes. Depends on the kid and how attached to the boob they are. Quiet honestly, I was shocked as shit when I went to my first La Leche League meeting w/my then 6 month-old infant and saw children nursing who were big enough to walk up & ask for it. Flash forward three years to my discovery that I was now one of the people who was horrifying the newbies. Once you have a kid, though, your notion of the length of babyhood will most likely expand. They may be walking and talking, but they're still essentially babies with wheels. You realize it when you run into things like forgetting and cutting the sandwich into squares instead of triangles and the kid refuse it b/c he/she doesn't think it's actually a sandwich anymore. Crazy baby brains.
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1602 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 14:32:01
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I was in "Crazy Baby Brains" when I was a freshman in college.
I played bass.
(and rattle) |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 14:45:35
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Heh-heh.
I can't help it this week--I keep unintentionally coming up with potential band names. Yesterday it was Band Camp Boyfriend.
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 14:58:42
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| You should start a magazine like Robert Pollard did and print up all your potential band names. You could make a book, like a baby name book, except for band names. Then budding young bands who are considering names like "Blink 182" could buy your book and call themselves something cool. Like Band Camp Boyfriend. Which rox my sox. |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 15:01:49
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Em came up with a great potential band name this week: Complete Friend Enema.
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 15:02:22
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Or maybe it's a song title: "Complete Friend Enema (I Need One)"
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 15:05:05
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coming soon from rox my sox records:
the debut album from Band Camp Boyfriend, "Crazy Baby Brains"
ft. the hit single "Complete Friend Enema (I Need One)"
01/01/04 |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 15:08:14
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Should it be: "Complete Friend Enema (I Need A)" or "Complete Friend Enema (Can I Get A)?" Can't! Stop! Tweaking! Song! Title!
Nuance is important to me. Or at least PMS me.
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 15:10:22
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| Do I have to push back the release date? Freaking prima donna.... |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 15:14:53
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quote:
Originally posted by mereubu
Or maybe it's a song title: "Complete Friend Enema (I Need One)"
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon"
I think it's a song by my punk band, Typical Boy. And I still love Band Camp Boyfriend as well. I picture three girls belting it out in headgear and kneesocks.
M-WAH! |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 15:18:32
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Can they beat the crap out of hecklers w/field hockey sticks?
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 15:19:37
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| You know it. And mouthguards! |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 15:21:37
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Alriight.
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 16:02:14
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quote:
Originally posted by speedy_m
You should start a magazine like Robert Pollard did and print up all your potential band names. You could make a book, like a baby name book, except for band names. Then budding young bands who are considering names like "Blink 182" could buy your book and call themselves something cool. Like Band Camp Boyfriend. Which rox my sox.
Jello Biafra did that before Pollard did, only this was on his spoken word tour. He did a great bit where he starts "When you name your band the Dead Kennedys, people assume you can come up with all sorts of band names." And he does. My favorite out of this bunch -- the Janitors of Anarchy
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!" |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2003 : 23:53:49
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Five cats..wow..
Dunno if anyone can ever catch Dean without resorting to excessive amounts of inanity. |
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 04:40:34
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Hey all you mums, while your here and in the sharing mood i want to ask to about the actaul birth of your children.
How awful was it? by awful i mean painful, i know once the baby is actually born its all wonderful and the pain is forgotton etc etc but my mate just had a baby girl and her vagina split!
I just could not believe it, that just sounds like the worst thing that could ever happen to a women. Is this a usual thing?
Even if splitting isn't usual is your vagina ever really the same after being streched so much?
I would really like to have children within the next few years but i would like to know what i'm getting myself into. I am a little concerned about actually giving birth because i have a very low pain threshold. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 09:19:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Five cats..wow..
Dunno if anyone can ever catch Dean without resorting to excessive amounts of inanity.
Inanity n. pl. inanities
1. The condition of revealing truth through complex meanings lost on lower rungs of society.
2. Something full of purpose and awesomeness.
Buahahaha. The New Modified Webster's strikes again!
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2003 : 10:32:11
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gracie, I think tearing is pretty common and the few friends I have who have experienced that didn't have horrible experiences. I think when the doctor makes a cut (apeaseotomy - which I can't spell b/c it's not in my dictionary!) that is worse because it is often more than needs to be done, and the healing time is worse then with a natural tear. I think that there are worse more painful things that can happen in labor and this isn't one to be too scared about. My friends who have experienced it said they didn't even know until they were told.
I am sure all you boys are loving this thread now! |
Edited by - ramona on 11/16/2003 10:33:05 |
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