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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2003 : 13:34:12
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I admittedly don't know too much about this subject but I was hoping someone could tell me why if we're not supposed to eat meat do we
a)have the enzymes to break down meat proteins and
b)have incisors, canines for tearing flesh (vivid hey) |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 13:39:08
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| I'm not a vegan, nor a vegetarian, but I think while there are many vegans who would claim we are not "supposed" to eat meat (and probaby have some interesting evidence to back that claim up), I'm sure there are many who say that they choose not to eat meat because they don't feel it's right, even if humans were designed to do so. Perhaps we've evolved passed the stage of "needing" to eat animals. We grown beyond our original design, as we can supply the nutrients our bodies need without meat. Again, I know next to nothing about all this. I'm just bored. Good topic though Carolyn. |
Edited by - speedy_m on 07/15/2003 13:40:09 |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 13:40:32
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I'm not the person to answer the whole vegan side of it, but apparently, we're not born with the enzymes to digest meat--they gradually develop. I grew up eating meat, but after I stopped for about four years and then went back to it, I had developed an allergy to beef. Now I can't eat it, and haven't in thirteen years (except for a couple of really ugly accidental ingestions.) Weird stuff.
I do know that, evolutionarily speaking, australopithicus (sp?), the early hominid, was able to make the jump in brain size by eating meat--those amino acids are what caused a leap in brain development. A certain amount of meat helped us get where we are. Do we still need it? Hell if I know. |
Edited by - mereubu on 07/15/2003 13:41:08 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 13:44:25
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Ya I heard that too mere, we went to a mixed diet to increase brain mass via the protein.
mmmmm, food goes in here. |
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eebee
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
104 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 13:44:29
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but then again the body still cant
process milk [lactose]not to mention the life of suffering dairy animals have to suffer being chemically induced to produce
look im not get get myself worked up
read this and get informed
http://www.vegan.com/faq.php
www.mp3.com/the_cosy_molars -please download the cosy molars demo ep off soulseek to give us a hand
http://forum.frankblack.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2204 |
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thalassocrat
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
46 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 15:02:42
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Mereubu you ignorant idiot (and others), shut up when you haven't got a clue what you are saying. As a qualified biochemist I can make the solid assertions that:
1. When you are born you produce all the dietary enzymes you are ever going to produce and nothing is going to change that. The amount is modulated only, in response to stimuli to synchronise relase into lumen with arrival of food. Obviously you haven't got a clue what an enzyme is and how it is synthesised.
2. Allergies have nothing to do with enzymes. They are the result of wrongful designation of molecules as alergens by the immune system.
3. Evolution doesn't work like that. Cranial capacity increased because a bigger brain provided greater cognitive capacity that proved beneficial and made individuals better suited for survival. Diet can not cause a change but only facilitate it. The way in which a new characteristic is put to use is the driving force for evolution (i.e. if a bigger brain is not any better that a smaller one its not going to get bigger no mater what you eat).
4. Humans need essential animal fats and vitamins in diet. Why do u vegan losers supplement your diet with pills? And do you think those vitamins got there in a way other that slaughtering innocent, big eyed, cute, cuddly, little animals?
Do we "need" to eat animals. You poor fuckers! I wonder why do the people in this topic are mostly women? What next? Men don't "need" porn?
I'm sick and tired of stupid little people watching some half-arsed TV program and suddenly deciding they have become experts in the field.
And another thought: while you cretins discuss the finer points of your trendy diets think how millions of people are malnurished, skin on bones and die of starvation each year, so thin that even stray dogs have nothing to pick from their emanciated, dead bodies. And we don't need meat! Evidently you are not in the same species as most humans on this planet. Your tender, fat, unexercised bodies represent the zenith of human evolution and any shortcomings should be blamed on that bad bad meat.
You fuckin' disgust me! |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 15:13:56
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| You know there's probably an appropriate, informative, nice to have a discussion/make a point. I'm not expert on debates, but THAT wasn't it. You make good points thalassocrat, ones that should be thought about and discussed. Unfortuantely, you're also a jerk, and as such people will respond mostly to your negativity and vile attitude (as I am). What is wrong with qustioning what we "know"? mere pointed out that she is uninformed at best and was simply making a statement that (I assume) was open to correction. And do we "need" meat is a perfectly valid question. Not everyone is a "qualified biochemist", nor do they have all the answers to life's problems. There is NOTHING wrong with questioning something. I've been eating meat since I was a child. Does that make it right? Maybe not. Should I investigate it if I'm so inclined? Absolutely. Making blanket statements and condescending comments digusts me, thala. |
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Visiting Sasquatch
= Cult of Ray =
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 16:43:10
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quote:
Originally posted by thalassocrat
And another thought: while you cretins discuss the finer points of your trendy diets think how millions of people are malnurished, skin on bones and die of starvation each year, so thin that even stray dogs have nothing to pick from their emanciated, dead bodies. And we don't need meat! Evidently you are not in the same species as most humans on this planet. Your tender, fat, unexercised bodies represent the zenith of human evolution and any shortcomings should be blamed on that bad bad meat.
You fuckin' disgust me!
This logic can be applied to everything!
For example,
statement: I like to read while listening to Frank Black.
counterstatement: You insensitive shithead! Think about all the illiterate, deaf people who cannot read nor listen to Frank Black! Be grateful you even have eyes and ears! You fuckin' disgust me!
---
if a big animal had the chance,
it wouldn't take another glance,
it would eat you up - NoFX
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it's survival of the fittest,
and we're winning - NoFX
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Hehe...don't beat me up over these lyrics, they just crack me up! Hey, I listen to Meat is Murder too!!!
---
You fuckin' disgust me! |
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lippincott
- FB Fan -
11 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 17:09:01
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Almost all experts agree that humans have evolved to eat meat. I agree, although I am a former vegan and current vegetarian. Evolution has nothing to do with the ethical decision to not eat meat, dairy, etc...and it certainly is a lame explanation for why people SHOULD eat meat. That is like saying that since humans have killed each other for millions of years it is entirely appropriate to kill others, we should be encouraged to kill those around us, and those who choose not to kill others are weird. That is obviously ridiculous. Vegan/Vegetarianism is a luxury allowed by modern nutrition science that enables people to live a more compassionate lifestyle. Very few committed vegs think they are "saving the world" or anything like that. Plus, diets based primarily on vegatables, legumes, soy and plant-derived fats are the healthiest.
Also the "think about the starving, malnourished" comment is completely ignorant. Beef cattle in America eat enough grain (and other ground up animals) to feed all the starving people in the world four times over. American dogs have much better nutrition than most people in African nations. World hunger is a factor of werstern waste and overconsumption, pure and simple.
Also, I am male, and Thalassocrat is a sexist that "needs" porn...imagine that. |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 17:14:52
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Geez, thalassocrat, take a breath. I'm not sure why you need to be so personally abusive and misogynistic. First of all, I'm neither vegan nor vegetarian, but if I chose to be then I should hope to be able to do so without being attacked. I find your assumptions about me and everyone else in this thread puzzling. This was your chance to illuminate the subject with your professed expertise but you've done so in a manner that will only make folks shun you in other threads and think you're a big wanker. No, I don't have a scientific background, but my mother is a biologist/biochemist and my father's a physician, and I always enjoy their perspective on things. It's pleasant when scientists are willing to explain something to those outside their field (and helps them brush up on those often much-needed social skills.) Anyway, I'm guessing you must be pretty insecure if you feel the need to use your body of knowledge as something with which to intimidate people and shut them up. I'm a college professor, but you won't find me attacking people and foaming at the mouth because their sociological views don't match up with mine or because they've been spouting misinformation on the Jacobean drama. You can start a conversation and make a contribution without pissing everybody else off. You can even change a few minds if you're willing to be patient.
Finally, I'm not sure where the whole porn thing came from, but for the record and lest you saddle me with any more of your malformed perceptions, I think that EVERYBODY needs porn. (And clearly, some of the more antisocial among us are going to need waaaay more of it because they're not going to be able to get anything else!)
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 17:17:51
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| Aw, Dean, where'd yours go? I liked the "king of the sea" bit. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 17:35:52
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word up mere (ubu). apparantly thal(ass)ocrat has something UP his ass.
could thal(ass)ocrat be yet another of MIRV's identities?
can tofu ever possibly taste "good"?
these and more questions hopefully to be answered..
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 18:05:06
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Hypothetical question for you people (maybe you can answer this thalassocrat, being a qualified biochemicalolagister):
What if every person in the world was a vegetarian and no one ever ate meat? Would anything happen to the ecosystem? It just seems like something would get messed up and we'd all die and then the animals would be the only ones left and they'd be laughing at us (at least hyenas would).
I just ponder this question every once in a while and I have to wonder ...
-Derek |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 18:08:37
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Sounds like thailssocrat has some issues.....
Geez, when i first started reading his response, I thought he was joking, you know, the old SNL Dan Ackroyd Point/Counterpoint bit "Jane you ignorant slut" but then I saw no emoticons, no <sarcasm on> </end sarcasm> nothing. I am the queen of giving people the benefit of the doubt (often to my own peril.), but the more I read, somebody wants to start a flamewar or something. Especially when this topic started out in a nice, productive, "Just genuinely want to hear the argument one way or antoehr" requestful way.
Thailssocrat (help me spell please), there indeed was a much more productive way to correct our collective knowledge here, did it have to come in the form of this unwarranted attack?
I think for dinner tonight I'll have some rice and beans... as my mother used to say "Jesus, Mary and Joseph!"
As for the topic itself, I've seen conflicting research as to how we have evolved to eat/not eat meat, including our teeth, enzyme production, etc. I suspect we really do have to take it down to a personal choice thing and rely on a personal moral code. I eat meat, and therefore I don't diss meat-eaters, nor do I have any kind of issue with vegans and vegetarians. Seems like thailssocrat is somehow threatened --otherwise his facts wouldn't have been so horrifically coated in venom.
My degree, BTW, is in English. I don't know what that qualifies me to spew here.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 18:12:47
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| Girl, I'm listening to your 1826 right now--you are qualified to rawk out!! |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 18:15:15
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isn't anyone going to point out how clever it was of me to put the "ass" in thal(ass)ocrat in parentheses like that?
my self-esteem is relying on this.. |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 18:18:38
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
can tofu ever possibly taste "good"?
these and more questions hopefully to be answered..
Pick up Deborah Madison's "This Can't Be Tofu" -- I've made several recipies from this and indeed it can be good. And Tofu was the theme ingredient on an episode of "Iron Chef" and the panel raved. As westerners, we probably don't have a clue. I made Madison's "Tofu Stroganoff" and my husband the tofu hater admitted it was pretty good. I also took Mollie Katzen's advice and made fried tofu for the baby, which was good for her and she liked. But i admit, its something you have to a) develop a taste for and b) develop a skill to learn to make. But is is nutritionally great stuff, packs much nutritional bang for your buck.
In the meantime, though, one of the worse insults you can get from my circle fo friends is (eastsider = liberal hippy resident who lives in an ivory tower) to be called a "Tofu-sucking eastisder"!
I think tofu suffers when you try to make it into things its not, then you get all worked up for it. Tofu Brats/Hotdogs should be illegal. You want a bratwurst, grill yourself a fucking bratwurst. If you want that taste, then you haven't lost your taste for meat. (Although I have to admit, Gardenburger makes these "ribs" that me and my daughter love, but don't go into them thinking they're gonna taste like pork). You want genuine chinese hot n sour soup, well, then you must have tofu. Let tofu be tofu and you'll be fine. Avoid "Tofu Hamburgers like the plague." But I strongly suggest hitting some good szechwan joint and getting the hot and spicy tofu-veggie stir fry.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 18:20:54
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
isn't anyone going to point out how clever it was of me to put the "ass" in thal(ass)ocrat in parentheses like that?
my self-esteem is relying on this..
I (ass)ure you that it was most amusing. :-) |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 18:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by mereubu
Girl, I'm listening to your 1826 right now--you are qualified to rawk out!!
gee, thanks! We're not even going to get over to our friend with broadband's house to download the whole thing until this weekend the earliest, it's killing me (and we will tie up our phone line forever if we attempt this at dialup...) so thanks for the advance kudos!!!
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 18:22:34
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east side of where?
here in la being a nutrition freak is more of a "west side" thing.. although it's affected all of la.
tofu's actually ok. and i've been eating more of it lately, to intersperse with the mass amounts of hamburgers i usually eat.. but it's more of just kind of "filler" in my opinion. something to eat without feeling as guilty. but not something i would ever find myself craving, like a nice juicy, perfectly cooked, 100% top sirloin hamburger.. or a carne asada taco. know what i mean? |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 18:28:37
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| It sounds great--the whole thing. You're in for a treat. Everybody did an amazing job. Sigh. Violin has never made me feel so dorky as it does now. |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 18:58:30
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Where's Dave??...I have some great books about veganism/vegetarianism (I don't know what the difference is) by this guy named George Malkmus. I haven't read any in a few years. I did when I used to be a vegetarian for a while. The fact is, humans don't need meat at all. I don't know all the scientific stuff and everything, but if you use logic and think about it, where do animals get all the proteins/minerals/vitamins? They get it from eating plants. If you eat only fruits, vegetables, and grains in the right amounts you'll be more healthy than anyone else alive. And this does NOT mean follow those stupid food pyramids. I laugh whenever I see those because they're so fucked up it's pathetic. I even saw one in my doctor's office once that was made by McDonalds. Like I said, I don't know all the scientific stuff so this might come off as being pretty ignorant, but oh well.
As far as feeling a moral obligation not to kill animals, that's great, and I respect people like that, except when they value the life of animals over humans. I'm actually starting to feel weird eating animals, but I don't think that will ever stop me because they taste too good. |
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thalassocrat
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
46 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 19:32:33
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Hehe, do bad words get attention?
No need to point out what a jerk I am. I intended to be one.
Lippincott:"That is like saying that since humans have killed each other for millions of years it is entirely appropriate to kill others, we should be encouraged to kill those around us, and those who choose not to kill others are weird. That is obviously ridiculous." Not sure what you're on about. You seem to equate carnivores with canibals.
Floop: Yes, I have a bad itch up my arse...
ProverbialCereal:"What if every person in the world was a vegetarian and no one ever ate meat? Would anything happen to the ecosystem? It just seems like something would get messed up and we'd all die and then the animals would be the only ones left and they'd be laughing at us (at least hyenas would)." - I don't think vegetarianism would bring about extinction, hypothetically.
NimrodsSon:"The fact is, humans don't need meat at all. I don't know all the scientific stuff and everything, but if you use logic and think about it, where do animals get all the proteins/minerals/vitamins? They get it from eating plants." Animals have the ability to make molecules (amino acids, vitamins, etc) that are not found in plants using more basic nutrients obtained from them. But some animals can't make everything they requrie in this way hence the need to include animals that can in their diet.
Keep the fan mail flowing.
they speak vaudevillian... |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 22:03:51
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quote:
Originally posted by mereubu
Aw, Dean, where'd yours go? I liked the "king of the sea" bit.
Mere... I decided that garbage he posted wasn't even worthy of a response, and that Speedy did an apt job making the points I was. The ... at a loss for a word... of that post just infuriated me. |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 22:25:09
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| Gotcha. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 22:40:24
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Hey everyone, the resident vegan veteran is here to help out. This will be long. Note that i've been vegan (and an outspoken activist) over 13yrs, and i've read a hell of a lot on the subject, especially from the nutritional aspect.
I'll tackle these in order, look for your name. =)
Carolyn - i wouldn't argue that we 'can't' eat meat, nor are we physiologically unable. A better question is - 'how much meat can our bodies handle, or do we need'? Any nutritionist/dietician these days will tell you less is better. A few times a week, not every meal.
As for our canines, compare them to any true carnivore and you'll see we're completely inept when it comes to 'tearing into flesh'. I think they're more useful for tearing into the tough skin of oranges and bananas. That's my own opinion.
Mike - you're exactly right here - humans have absolutely no physiological need to eat animals or their excretions. The *only* nutrient that is difficult to obtain strictly from plants is Vitamin B12. The current theory is that we've become so sterile that the micro-organisms that create B12 (no, animals don't make it, cows don't make it, a bacteria (or fungus?) makes it) aren't present ON our food, in specks of dirt, etc... However, lots of vegan foods now come fortified, as well as suppliments.
Brain stuff - instead of calling you names, i'll let you know that animal fats high in Omega 3 fatty acids helped in getting larger brains, not proteins. (I'm not 100% on this, but i'm pretty sure this is one of the key nutrients.)
eebee - thanks for the link! I simply cannot believe how people are sucked into eating cows milk, it is the most disgusting, offensive and unnatural substance i can think of to consume..after feces and urine.
It's insane how people would be put-off drinking human milk, yet the same substance from a faceless and basically raped creature locked in a barn, pumped full of chemicals is somehow appealing. Bleh. Hurray for advertising i guess.
thalassocrat - please show a little more respect. No one deserved those comments, and i will not tolerate sexist remarks.
As for your assertions:
1 - i don't think a newborn can really digest much more than his/her's mother's milk, or similar substances. I think if you blended up a Big Mac and fed it to him/her i'm pretty sure you'd have a very poor reaction.
4 - i must be dead. (I see dead people..) Which 'essential animal fats' are you speaking of? Which 'essential vitamins' appear only in animal flesh and secretions?
No one claimed to be an 'expert' (except maybe me), and i think it was pretty clear everyone to this point admitted they know very little about the subject, thus the beginning of a topic on the subject.
Being a 'biochemist' is certainly no green card to being a nutritionist or dietician. Sheesh.
lippincott - you bring up a good point. If being 'natural' is so important, why don't males eat or kill/chase off the children of women they hook up with, as occurs 'naturally' every day? Why don't males try to impregnate as many females as possible? Why don't we have males competing for territory?
One might argue that we've 'progressed'. I would argue an extension of this is to show respect and compassion to the rest of the world (and recognition that there will never be enough animals on this planet to feed 6.7+ billion humans) and let them be.
The planet cannot support this many humans eating meat. Plain and simple. Already much of the land is used for this (both rangeland, and growing food for the animals on the rangeland and in farms), and insane amounts of energy, and more water than anything else in the US.
Derek - the ecosystem would balance out. The animals are already there, there's no imbalance. (Well, there definitely is, but not in the way you're probably thinking.)
If it happened overnight (which sadly, it won't), my guess is that the remaining farmed animals would get to live out their natural lives (around 20yrs for the longer lived ones), and in that time the area's they've been filling would return to their natural state (forest, prarie, etc..)
Veronica - good post. To touch further on the physiological questions, we are certainly not carnivores. A true carnivore has much stronger stomach acid, a very short digestive tract (meat rots) has claws, large teeth and a jaw which only moves up and down. They also have a 'kill' instinct.
Humans fit into the herbi/omnivore range, and much closer to the herbi than omni - much like herbi', we have a very long digestive tract and need fibre, delicate hands, teeth for grating (molars) and our front teeth are much more suited for breaking off vegetative matter. Our jaw moves side to side as well. We *can* digest animal matter, but our digestive systems do much better with a majority (or entirity) of plant-based foods.
As for the 'kill' instinct, i think Harvey Diamond said it best:
"Give a human baby an apple and a bunny. If he eats the bunny and plays with the apple, I'll buy you a new car."
Hey NimrodsSon! Glad to see *someone* recognized my biggest passion in life! =P
A vegetarian may eat dairy, eggs, honey, and may wear or use leather, silk, and other animal products. Mainly, they don't *eat* animals directly, but other products that come from them.
Veganism in the true sense is a lifestyle, and one would eschew all animal products, including the 'little things' like whey powder (a milk ingredient, common in many breads, etc..)
It's the ultimate form of respect for non-human animals (imo.) It's also the most logically consistant. And often more healthy. (Dairy has no iron, which is why many vegetarians end up sick and/or anemic, but rarely do you find an anemic vegan.)
Finally, to clearly expand on amino acids, humans need to consume eight different ones (out of what, 22 now? They recently discovered another..i'm pretty sure it was 21 before.)
Amino acids are used to make proteins, which is what our muscles are made of (as well as other functions in our bodies.)
All of the eight essential amino acids are easily found in plants.
Any dietician or nutritionist will confirm this. A biochemist will generally have very little training in this area.
Please go easy on the questions right away...these things tend to only compound from here and there's not enough vegans to explain. =) |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2003 : 22:46:52
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| * one more note about amino acids, the other 14 non-essential ones can be created from other nutrients in our bodies. ie, we're amino acid factories. |
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bazza
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1439 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2003 : 02:33:09
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as a qualified microbiologist i say - im almost certain thats 100% correct (i think selenocysteine (21st amino acid) cant be made - rest can). i dont know any vegans over here - but hats off. I have just been informed that being a vegan can also increase your fertility! its probably due to the decreased intake of saturated fats -
Is your work done? Are all pigs fed, watered and ready to fly?....
- David Brent |
Edited by - bazza on 07/16/2003 04:59:29 |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2003 : 04:07:04
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I disagree with Dave on that veganism is the ultimate respect for non-human animals, and that eating habbits have anything at all to do with logic. First you imply that people that think differently than you don't have respect for nature - which is nonsense and disrespectfull in itself. Are chimpansies disrespectfull to other animals when they hunt down and eat other animals? Second, all people should be free to eat (mostly) what they like, and more importantly - some places they are dependent on animal products in order to survive. Mongolian horse riders get almost all their food from horses. How on earth would one survive in northern (way north) without, for instance, fish. Morals and logic has, in my view, no place in such discussions.
As for the killing instinct, humans kill when they have to - like carnivores. Most would kill if they're hungry enough, and such behavior has nothing to do with respect. We do have a very well developed capacity for aggressive behavior, but we live in a society with very strict rules against showing such behavior. We are also well supplied (in the western world) with food, which makes killing mostly unnessecary. Finally, we have big brains - wich means that we have a lot of behavioral options and ways of satisfying our instinctual needs. We can kill in a multitude of ways, and humans do it a lot. We have structured the killing of animals in gigantic slaughterhouses, and we have structured the killing of humans in wars. This does not mean that it is in our nature to kill, but we are able to, and we certainly do it alot. As for the baby, give a 8-week old puppy a bunny - do you think it would kill it?
A small note regarding wether we're carnivores or not; I read somewhere that one could get a good indication of this just by looking at the location of the eyes on the animal. Like carnivores (and maybe some omnivores - i dont know), our eyes are placed in the front of face - ideal for tracking something down or following prey. Hunted animals usually (if not always) have more space between their eyes - usually placed on the side - so that they can keep track of possible dangers. I have no idea wether this notion is correct or not, but it's an interesting thought.
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vamos
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
37 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2003 : 06:14:58
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Thalassocrat, you're one of those vile specimens; a man with a degree but without half a brain. So what if you've a degree in Biochemistry? There are people with Psychology degrees who think homosexuality can be "cured." Its clear anything slightly progressive irritates you as you feel it undermines your position as a man. This is obviously due to your feelings of inadequacy around women and the fact that you rarely, if ever, get laid.
sponsor my silence |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2003 : 06:40:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Mike - you're exactly right here - humans have absolutely no physiological need to eat animals or their excretions. The *only* nutrient that is difficult to obtain strictly from plants is Vitamin B12. The current theory is that we've become so sterile that the micro-organisms that create B12 (no, animals don't make it, cows don't make it, a bacteria (or fungus?) makes it) aren't present ON our food, in specks of dirt, etc... However, lots of vegan foods now come fortified, as well as suppliments.
......(snip)
eebee - thanks for the link! I simply cannot believe how people are sucked into eating cows milk, it is the most disgusting, offensive and unnatural substance i can think of to consume..after feces and urine.
It's insane how people would be put-off drinking human milk, yet the same substance from a faceless and basically raped creature locked in a barn, pumped full of chemicals is somehow appealing. Bleh. Hurray for advertising i guess.
(snip)
1 - i don't think a newborn can really digest much more than his/her's mother's milk, or similar substances. I think if you blended up a Big Mac and fed it to him/her i'm pretty sure you'd have a very poor reaction.
First, thanks for the kindly stated info. While I do eat meat, I appreciate the non-abrasive way you've presented this, and as such, I've been very open to the vegan aspects of nutrition. Much of it is stuff I've read before and filed away in the cobwebs of my brain, and is responsible for the sharp decrease in my meat consumption. I didn't know about the animal sources of Omega-3 fatty acids, which these days are being touted as the big missing ingredient in more than a few (usually low-carb) diet plans that actually are working for me and some of my other overweight friends. Thing is, all the sources of Omega-3 fatty acids that get talked up (the high lignan flaxseed oil being the king of them….) are vegan. Nobody ever says "eat meat to get yer Omega-3s".
But anyway, the quotes I cut out above reminded me of an argument I had on a different forum regarding breastfeeding. (This was a few weeks after I was in the minority of supporting a woman's right to nurse her child in public -- having to drag out all the arguments like "Take them in the bathroom? Why don't you try to enjoy your lunch while sitting next to somebody grunting out a shit?") The issue was some child care giver, in the interest of calming an inconsolable baby, put the baby to her breast. The parents were outraged and demanded she be arrested. While I understand the health concern of your kid getting breast milk from someone who may or may not have some communicable disease, the big gross-out of the board was not this particular (valid) health concern, it was simply the concept of a baby getting breast milk from someone other than her mother. You should have seen all the "ewwwwww---grosss!" posts -- even after it was pointed out that wet nurses-- until very recently-- were a common practice. (Then there were plenty of "ewwwwww-- gross!" posts on the concept of wet nurses). Then I posted "If the concept of wet nurses grosses you out, how do you milk- cheese- and yogurt-eaters reconcile that with attaching an electric pump to a totally different species, then fermenting some of that with use of bacteria, and then eating that? When you think about it, that's kinda gross!" (even though, I admit, as a resident of "Amerika's Dairyland" I still enjoy dairy products) Well I might as well have wiped my shit with the American flag and draped it over the Blessed Virgin Mary as far as these posters were concerned. "Apples and Oranges!" they screamed at me. How dare I even compare the two! "You obviously don't understand!" I was chastised. How dare I even consider the concept and make them think. It made me think a lot about how much our culture and society are really warped, where the simple act of nursing a baby is considered gross, and by many, even if it is done by the child's biological mother, considering the breasts to be dirty/naughty (in a world where a trip to Hooters will get your eyes more tit than any nursing mother would) -- and yet as fully grown humans we freely virtually nurse the udders/nipples of some bovine with nary a thought.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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bazza
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1439 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2003 : 07:03:19
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quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
 thats a hum dinger!
Is your work done? Are all pigs fed, watered and ready to fly?....
- David Brent |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2003 : 08:00:09
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Since it's my sig quote, I should probably attribute it: it comes from Robert J Kriegel and Louis Patler’s If It Ain't Broke, Break It: And Other Unconventional Wisdom for a Changing Business World (Warner Books, 1992).
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2003 : 08:50:26
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Thanks for the confimation Barry, tho just because you're a microbiologist i'm gonna have to call in the big guns.
Derek - you're the Tabmaster, what do you have to say about all this amino acid talk? =)
ivandiel - i would disagree with you. A simple line from George Bernard Shaw (a rather outspoken veggie) sums it up well for me:
"Animals are my Friends and I don't eat my Friends."
In a similar thread, you wouldn't slaughter, chop up and eat anyone you had respect for (run Charles!!), a well-imbibed case of speciesism plays a large role here, as can be seen by treating some species with respect in our culture (ie, cats and dogs and humans), and others with complete disregard (cows, chickens, fish, pigs, etc..)
If you were to witness what goes on in any slaughterhouse, 'respect for the animals' would be the last thing in your mind.
I won't comment on chimps, or other species, i have no idea if 'respect' is highly regarded in their societies. I know it is in ours tho. And this is a conscious effort we can make to reduce unnecessary suffering in the world, as is by example in how we treat other humans. Why is species the defining trait here?
You don't find chimps in the far north either, why's that? It's my belief and opinion that humans should really stick relative close to the equator, where plant-based foods are available year-round. (Of course that isn't a reality, and probably won't ever be. Consider this - just as people have sufficient technology to survive in these areas, they can use technology to eliminate dependence on the death of other creatures.)
Veronica - actually, sadly, fish oil is high in O3, and is a popular choice for getting this nutrient. I worry about the levels of mercury, dioxin and other toxins in this, as well as for the fish who have to die (obviously quite unnecessarily when we have flax and hemp oil, as well as walnuts as excellent sources of O3.)
Great story on 'milk'! I read that a while ago.. I really can't believe how people think that getting milk from a different woman is so bad, yet a glass of cows milk probably has milk combined from hundreds of cows..! And again, who are kept in terrible conditions! The amount of pus and blood that's in commercial milk (filtered out for the most part, but there's still a high pus content) would put most people off i think. |
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Itchload
= Cult of Ray =
USA
891 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2003 : 08:51:16
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| Thalassocrat, there's nothing in the world I hate more than when someone educated in one field gets pissed off at someone uneducated in the same field. Keep in mind if your teachers had the same elitist attitude as yourself, you wouldn't know anything. Congratulations on reading your highschool bio book, I officially hate you by the way. |
Edited by - Itchload on 07/16/2003 08:55:20 |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2003 : 09:09:04
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I don't think dictating one's morals does much good, but actual statistics must count for something. I'm not a vegetarian. I used to eat quite a bit of red meat and milk and developed a nice healthy case of hypertension at the age of 35. Two years ago I ditched the red meat and switched to nonfat milk. I started discovering likeable ways to prepare vegetables I'd previously hated (thank you, garlic). Six months ago, I'd lowered my total cholesterol count by over 20 points and it was in a barely acceptable range. Then I completely dropped out the red meat and I'm off dairy almost completely, lost another 15 pounds (35 total in the last two years) and the blood pressure situation is pretty much solved. I think moderation is the key, and not all bodies need the same things.
From what I've read, our teeth and GI tracts most closely resemble those of members of the monkey family, especially chimpanzees. So any argument about what we're "supposed" to eat should be compared with what they eat. They are omnivorous, but meat comprises only about 10% of their overall diet. Also, if we were still cave dwellers not living in a modernized society where all food comes "pre-grown" and "pre-killed," wrapped in nice plastic packages, I suspect we'd be eating at least a little meat. Obviously our diets would vary according to local geography, but I'm pretty sure there would be at least a little meat in there (thought not necessarily red meat).
I think it's pretty obvious we don't "need" dairy products-- we just "like" them. My weakness has always been ice cream. Does anyone know of a mammal (other than homo sapiens) that consumes milk after weaning?
All I can say to you dedicated carnivores is that you can face the facts now or deal with it when you get older. That saturated fat is coming to get you. Unfortunately, you start thinking about these things when you're pushing 40. |
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