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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  04:59:28  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Kingmob999

Wow, Im really suprised that molin did such a harsh review on the cd. He should really use some of that energy towards his own music. really.



As somebody who was "dissed" on his review, I really don't mind. He laid out his criteria, and then applied it. We actually tried to not do a straight cover on ours, but the song itself was difficult to achieve that, so according to his criteria, we failed. Guilty as charged. I prefer that instead of snide snotty remarks like another reviewer did: at least we know what molin's measuring stick was.

I have to say, I also prefer "intrepretations" as opposed to covers, but overall the straight up covers were really good and I would be pleased to walk into a bar and hear a band doing as well as Radiator did any time.



"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  05:13:26  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank

Anytime, Sarah. And, interestingly enough, the only two songs done with female leads made it on the album. Affirmative action? Not needed, they both were awesome (the other was 1826, just to preempt anyone else accidentally thinking somehow that Blackpurse is a man). Why were there not more? I don't know, but hopefully it will encourage others out there to get on board.




Well, 10% of the songs on the CD featured female vocals and -- I have no way to prove this, but a cursory look indicates that -- roughly 10% of the people who post here on the forum are women. So actually, it about evens out and is rather refreshingly predictable. Plus, I'm still finding that out of all the working bands out there in the underground and such (and I'm talking non-mainstream bands), there's still about only 10-20% participation by women. I still get attention simply because I'm the chick and that's STILL somewhat of an anomoly. Someone bumped into me at a bar a couple of weeks ago and intro'ed me to a friend as a "Great female guitar player." No, I'm just one of the FEW women in town who plays an electric and actually attemps lead (and with my bum left hand and little kids I haven't been doing much of that lately) but I'm not really good at it. I'm just loaded with chutzpah, and that plays well with an audience.

I sincerely hope you're sincere in that our track wasn't included simply because it featured a woman's voice -- I genuinely hope it was because that voice was simply good enough and was accompanied by good musicians. There's too many sucky women out there who are getting attention -- and therefore backlash on us all -- because of this supposed handicap which we don't really need. (I am one of those who believe that the Lilith Fair was totally unnecessary.)



"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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AdamWest
- FB Fan -

20 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  05:51:56  Show Profile  Visit AdamWest's Homepage
Concerning "harsh" reviews or comments toward reviewers like "Well, it's not like you could do any better.."

I think anyone can review anything, it doesn't matter if you can actually produce what you're reviewing. I'm sure if Roger Ebert tried to write a screenplay, at best, it would turn out as a campy piece of shit with dialogue so bad that it becomes a cult movie people love to make fun of (Oh wait, that DID happen with "Valley of the Dolls".) So that shouldn't be a criteria as to whether someone has the right to state their opinions here. Besides, I don't want to only hear reviews from OTHER musicians. How boring and in-bred is that? I enjoy fresh perspectives from listeners as well. Let's not make this a little musician's club that ousts outsiders unless they have something nice to say.

I do think the only criteria of a review is the depth of what's said. Good or bad. To simply type a one liner like "He sounds like a 12 year old with a Mr. Microphone." may be funny, but it's not a review. It's a cheap shot that only makes fun of the song. If you were to type that line and then back it up with why you said it i.e. "There's lots of distortion in the vocals and they're very loud in the mix..etc." At least this offers a "why" to your opinion. And that's what reviewing is all about. Offering somewhat intelligent opinions on commentary for the reader to take or leave as they wish. And being nice in a review can be just as lame. "I likie." Doesn't really tell anyone much at all. How enjoyable would it be to read through a list of album reviews in Magnet Magazine that consisted of "This sucks. This is good. This one sucks more than the first." Just back yourself up. Sometimes it is hard in a situation like this where you'd like to give a fair shake to each song (and not repeat yourself over and over.) But I think it's cool to choose your battles and talk in-depth about the songs that effect you more strongly (bad or good) and give a quick line about the ones you're more lukewarm towards.

So to you out there...have you listened to some or all of the tracks? Got something good or bad to say about any or all of 'em? Say it. Just give some sort of reason for your opinion either way, even if it's a few words. Then I think it's fair and most readers will probably appreciate it.

-Ryan
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sarah spinart
- FB Fan -

77 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  05:53:51  Show Profile  Visit sarah spinart's Homepage
i did start thinking about that as i was posting - the FB fanbase, in general, seems to be about 85% boy - or, rather, my experience of it has been. and it's true that the male/female ratio in the music scene is still pretty damn unbalanced, but when it comes to newer music, the girl factor is a lot more than with established artists with generally older audiences, like FB. i like to think that means maybe we are progressing after all.

(although i have had similar experiences - i'm in the process of buying a left-handed bass, and when i went out shopping for one the other day, not only did i get the "you should just play righty" lecture, but it was also explained to me that if i played righty, not only could i get all different styles of basses, but i could get them in all sorts of pretty colors! thanks, asshole!!)

how did i miss 1826!? i'll have to go back and listen. and i don't know what monkey island is.
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  06:20:06  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by sarah spinart

i
i'm in the process of buying a left-handed bass, and when i went out shopping for one the other day, not only did i get the "you should just play righty" lecture, but it was also explained to me that if i played righty, not only could i get all different styles of basses, but i could get them in all sorts of pretty colors! thanks, asshole


Oh, girl, just you wait. I blame the backlash, but toughen up and get ready for "You play pretty good for a girl" syndrome. After a while you laugh it off. I'm at the point now where when I get the "look at the fashion colors you can get patch cords in!" remarks, I go into Bimbo Mode and exclaim "I'm So SURE! Fabulous!! Do you take MasterCard of Visa!!!!" (My first band was called "Fistfull of Bimbos", BTW).

Actually, I used to keep all my pedals and patch cords in my circa-1967 Barbie Fashion Trunk (it was mine, I saved it after all these years, I did NOT get this at a rummage sale), but the latch on it broke since pedals are a bit heavier than Twist N Turn Casey and her wardrobe. Since then, for my birthday, my husband found for me an old-fashioned flight makeup case, you know, they're about 12" wide x 8" tall by 8" deep -- with a little mirror inside for fashionable ladies of the 50s to take their jewelry and makeup on flights. They're tough as nails (this was checked luggage, you know), it's tweed, and it's the perfect carrying case for your pedals, patch cords, batteries, power supplies, AND a compact and lipstick! Husband has been using one for years (sans compact and lipstick, of course, I'm So Sure!)





"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1602 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  07:03:56  Show Profile  Visit the swimmer's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse

quote:
Originally posted by sarah spinart

i
i'm in the process of buying a left-handed bass, and when i went out shopping for one the other day, not only did i get the "you should just play righty" lecture, but it was also explained to me that if i played righty, not only could i get all different styles of basses, but i could get them in all sorts of pretty colors! thanks, asshole


Oh, girl, just you wait. I blame the backlash, but toughen up and get ready for "You play pretty good for a girl" syndrome. After a while you laugh it off. I'm at the point now where when I get the "look at the fashion colors you can get patch cords in!" remarks, I go into Bimbo Mode and exclaim "I'm So SURE! Fabulous!! Do you take MasterCard of Visa!!!!" (My first band was called "Fistfull of Bimbos", BTW).

Actually, I used to keep all my pedals and patch cords in my circa-1967 Barbie Fashion Trunk (it was mine, I saved it after all these years, I did NOT get this at a rummage sale), but the latch on it broke since pedals are a bit heavier than Twist N Turn Casey and her wardrobe. Since then, for my birthday, my husband found for me an old-fashioned flight makeup case, you know, they're about 12" wide x 8" tall by 8" deep -- with a little mirror inside for fashionable ladies of the 50s to take their jewelry and makeup on flights. They're tough as nails (this was checked luggage, you know), it's tweed, and it's the perfect carrying case for your pedals, patch cords, batteries, power supplies, AND a compact and lipstick! Husband has been using one for years (sans compact and lipstick, of course, I'm So Sure!)





"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"





I use one of those cases for my pedals as well. I have no interest in anyone who thinks that just because I use that I am a sissyboy.


As for you Molin, there's nothing wrong with your "review" . After all, it's YOUR opinion. We are here to just give our opinion after all. Don't feel like you have to let up on anybody. If they can't take it, they aren't ready for the real world.

But fuck you anyway. Just kidding.

Seriously though, yes mine was a straight cover. The one difference it had, or the differences involved real subtle things. The background vocals, the delays, all slight touches to interject my take on the original. When I did it, I did not do it for a tribute cd. I did it by myself on the computer, just to see if I could do it because I loved the song so much. If you must know I was one of the first people they wanted for this thing and part of the impetus to do it. So I don't worry that you didn't get it. That's just you.

Obviously subtlety is not in your reptoire. And that's....O K. We learn to accept you or not by the way you are. We don't make judgements on whether you should live or die. So say what you want till this country isn't free anymore...

which in all indication should be by November of 2004.



"Winter blows through my coat"

the what four http://www.mp3.com/phelan
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1602 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  07:09:26  Show Profile  Visit the swimmer's Homepage
Plus, when i comes to covers, I don't like it when people take a song and wrangle it all out of any recognizability JUST for the sake of changing it or TRYING to make it unique.

It's like they call too much attention to themselves and they don't breathe any real life into the song.
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =

361 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  07:27:00  Show Profile
it's funny that you say roger eberts screenplays would be campy. he did write 'beyond the valley of the dolls'.
ryan
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =

361 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  07:27:46  Show Profile
next time i should read your whole post.
i'll go hide in a bucket now.
ryan
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =

Canada
11523 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  07:46:57  Show Profile  Visit Cult_Of_Frank's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
Well, 10% of the songs on the CD featured female vocals and -- I have no way to prove this, but a cursory look indicates that -- roughly 10% of the people who post here on the forum are women. So actually, it about evens out and is rather refreshingly predictable. Plus, I'm still finding that out of all the working bands out there in the underground and such (and I'm talking non-mainstream bands), there's still about only 10-20% participation by women. I still get attention simply because I'm the chick and that's STILL somewhat of an anomoly. Someone bumped into me at a bar a couple of weeks ago and intro'ed me to a friend as a "Great female guitar player." No, I'm just one of the FEW women in town who plays an electric and actually attemps lead (and with my bum left hand and little kids I haven't been doing much of that lately) but I'm not really good at it. I'm just loaded with chutzpah, and that plays well with an audience.

I sincerely hope you're sincere in that our track wasn't included simply because it featured a woman's voice -- I genuinely hope it was because that voice was simply good enough and was accompanied by good musicians. There's too many sucky women out there who are getting attention -- and therefore backlash on us all -- because of this supposed handicap which we don't really need. (I am one of those who believe that the Lilith Fair was totally unnecessary.)



Yeah, I actually thought I'd ask Dave about the female:male ratio to see how it compared, but since it's not mandatory to enter your sex when you sign on, I guess that's not feasible. But yeah, 10% sounds about right, so I'm happy that it happened that we have the same proportion on the CD.

As for your (or anyone's) inclusion on the CD, there was one factor and one factor alone that decided it: the track itself. I have no taste for passing up a better track as a means of supporting an inferior one for reasons of patronage, favour, or affirmative action. Rest assured that your track is on there because I think it deserves to be, as is Tim's, Ryan's, and though you may find this harder to believe, even mine. There was a while where we didn't have the drums sounding very good and the vocals were in question and it was in a position where it was not making the CD. We redid the vocals and drums and although most people don't seem to care for our take on the vocals or the supposed comedic factor, I think it turned out well and is deserving of a spot. If anything, I was probably harder on my own track than the rest. But in short, no, your track was placed there because it was good. That's it.

It would be frustrating to get the "you're good, FOR A GIRL" thing all the time, as if being good requires some sort of qualifier. Meaning what? If you were a guy, you wouldn't be remarkable at all? Or that you seem even better because you're a girl. If it helps, I'm sure there are guys who get similar comments in different fields, but it's just pretty silly.
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =

Canada
11523 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  07:58:59  Show Profile  Visit Cult_Of_Frank's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by sarah spinart

i did start thinking about that as i was posting - the FB fanbase, in general, seems to be about 85% boy - or, rather, my experience of it has been. and it's true that the male/female ratio in the music scene is still pretty damn unbalanced, but when it comes to newer music, the girl factor is a lot more than with established artists with generally older audiences, like FB. i like to think that means maybe we are progressing after all.

(although i have had similar experiences - i'm in the process of buying a left-handed bass, and when i went out shopping for one the other day, not only did i get the "you should just play righty" lecture, but it was also explained to me that if i played righty, not only could i get all different styles of basses, but i could get them in all sorts of pretty colors! thanks, asshole!!)

how did i miss 1826!? i'll have to go back and listen. and i don't know what monkey island is.



Monkey Island <ahem> (tm) is actually a series of adventure games from LucasArts featuring Guybrush Threepwood, a wanna' be pirate. They're actually quite hilarious and a lot of fun, and definitely a chef reccommends. You may need an old computer to play the first two, but there's two new ones that should run fine, and the latest Escape From Monkey Island is almost as good as the first two, but you'll miss a lot of the inside jokes that are all over it.

I hear you on the "just do it right-handed" stuff. Next time, make reference to them using their left hand when they are alone tonight. I've never done it, but someday...
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1162 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  08:56:09  Show Profile  Visit Ebb Vicious's Homepage
a comment on what adamwest said, good one-liners like 'he sounds like a 12-year old with a mister microphone' do tell you what's wrong. saying he sounds like a 12-year old indicates that his voice sounds weak, undeveloped, squeaky, off-tune and the mister microphone comment indicates that the recording quality is awful.

now a one-liner like 'the vocals sound like a load of goat shit poured into a blender and set on frappe' may be funny but doesn't really tell you anything.

anyway, i tend to think opinions are pretty worthless in general so i try not to waste too much of anyone's time with my own.
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AdamWest
- FB Fan -

20 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  09:26:49  Show Profile  Visit AdamWest's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
anyway, i tend to think opinions are pretty worthless in general so i try not to waste too much of anyone's time with my own.



Kinda funny coming from someone who has posted 161 times. LOL

-Ryan
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1602 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  10:10:22  Show Profile  Visit the swimmer's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by AdamWest

quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
anyway, i tend to think opinions are pretty worthless in general so i try not to waste too much of anyone's time with my own.



Kinda funny coming from someone who has posted 161 times. LOL

-Ryan




Snicker.



"Winter blows through my coat"

the what four http://www.mp3.com/phelan
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1162 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  10:32:36  Show Profile  Visit Ebb Vicious's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by AdamWest

quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
anyway, i tend to think opinions are pretty worthless in general so i try not to waste too much of anyone's time with my own.



Kinda funny coming from someone who has posted 161 times. LOL

-Ryan



i know this was supposed to be a witty, funny, biting comment but it really falls short considering how little i've posted over the time i've been registered here. especially compared to others.

and most of my posts are relatively short, especially the ones involving my own opinion.

nice try, though, chester.
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Steak n Sabre
* Dog in the Sand *

Uzbekistan
1013 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  11:20:08  Show Profile  Visit Steak n Sabre's Homepage
I'm posting this so everybody can take a look at it. Just so people dont think Spacebox is some generic terminology. Only one exists....
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Steak n Sabre
* Dog in the Sand *

Uzbekistan
1013 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  11:22:38  Show Profile  Visit Steak n Sabre's Homepage
Whoo-Hoooooooo!!! My first pic post worked!!!
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =

Canada
11523 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  12:21:33  Show Profile  Visit Cult_Of_Frank's Homepage
Heh... that's awesome. Seriously.
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =

USA
4020 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  13:04:59  Show Profile  Visit El Barto's Homepage
That's fucking awesome, where do I get one? As for molin's review, I think it was well done based on the fact that he explained what he likes in a cover and then went on to base his review on what he likes. The way I feel with covers is kinda what the swimmer said

quote:
Plus, when i comes to covers, I don't like it when people take a song and wrangle it all out of any recognizability JUST for the sake of changing it or TRYING to make it unique.


It's true...when I cover a song, I cover it because I love the song. I love playing it...I dunno, it's kind of hard to explain. You love the song and you want to play it yourself almost in a way that it is your own song. You make it your own the way you play it and sing it. While Oddballs is probably the most straight up cover on the album, that band made it their own with the vocal performance alone. You don't have to layer in piano and xylaphone and a different drum beat (like my cover) just because...I did it because I felt it would add to the sound of the song, make it fuller. Beyond that, I did a pretty straight up cover. Some people tend to completely change a song they cover. That's fine, but the way I see it is, why not just write a new song?

---------
FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS
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molin
- FB Fan -

USA
15 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  18:29:34  Show Profile  Visit molin's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by El Barto
Some people tend to completely change a song they cover. That's fine, but the way I see it is, why not just write a new song?



In the case of "Oddballs", that's actually what I was proposing since the original song itself is so awful. Anyway, my problem (if you will) is with some covers that are just duplicates of the song. You can play the song as written and not duplicate it. I mean, why go out of your way to add sounds and instrumentation to match the original? Just play it with your sound. Maybe a lot of the folks don't have a "sound" because they just got it all together for this project as a one-off. I don't know.

Let me try to illustrate what I'm getting at. I like Rush (well I used to back in the day). But their live shows are such meticulous recreations of the album tracks that they suck all the life out of their own songs. Obviously, they are not "covering" songs per se, but the principle is the same. The audience doesn't need to hear the CD, they own the CD. They need to hear some new notes, some better emphasis, whatever. If Rush put out 100's of CDs of their live shows like Pearl Jam did, the universe would collapse on itself due to the sheer pointlessness. Pearl Jam gets away with it because every show sounds different, someone will screw up, someone will get into a song and take it to the next level, Vedder will forget the words or make up some new ones, etc. Same songs being played, but version A is noticeably different to version B, and all are different from the album version. Obviously these are two bands at opposite ends of the sloppiness spectrum, and I'm not saying let's all be sloppy and forget the words so we're not Canadian robots like Rush. Just trying to clarify.
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -

USA
2945 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  19:25:46  Show Profile  Visit ProverbialCereal's Homepage
I agree with the swimmer's quote that el barto just quoted above.

Yeah, I don't even have to elaborate because it's exactly what I was thinking.

-Derek
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Kingmob999
- FB Fan -

57 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  20:14:05  Show Profile
I think my response to molin's review was a little rash, but it didnt seem very objective to me, it seemed negative from the start. I think it was an almost total sour-grapes response. But really, its nice to have a nasty-ish review, even if it was mostly projected nastyness.
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =

361 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2003 :  21:24:17  Show Profile
in the case of rush or any band i look at it both ways and agree that sometimes i don't want to go see a band and hear exactly what's on the cd...but sometimes i do. maybe they sound like the cd because they are the ones that recorded it. though i play in a band that a lot of people hate the fact that songs are faster live than on the cd, while others love it. you need a live energy different from the album at shows or people watching can get bored, though not always. i have no idea what my point is or if there even had been a point to begin with...i guess i am just agreeing.
ryan
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos

Canada
4496 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2003 :  00:39:21  Show Profile  Visit Dave Noisy's Homepage
I'm with molin on this.. I really don't enjoy a show that sounds like the CD... I want to see a performance, character, people spitting buckets of fake blood... Not listen to what's already coming out of my stereo..

I like bands that mix things up..changes things, sweet variety!

Watching FB&TC's is a weird experience for me...in the same respect, the CD sounds much like they do live. =P
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big_galoof
= Cult of Ray =

USA
310 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2003 :  05:10:29  Show Profile  Visit big_galoof's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by molin
In the case of "Oddballs", that's actually what I was proposing since the original song itself is so awful.


Seriously? This is a joke, right? "Oddballs" is one of his best, I think - I really identify with it. I once inscribed a book with a quote from the lyrics. Now I feel small and lonely.

TBG
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Kingmob999
- FB Fan -

57 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2003 :  07:30:37  Show Profile
I love the beginning of clootie's "Big Red". I think thats my favorite moment of this whole project.
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =

USA
925 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2003 :  07:36:15  Show Profile  Visit Atheist4Catholics's Homepage
I don't think ANY of the covers are straight "sound alikes" with the exception of maybe "Oddballs", but they did a great job matching it.

I think some of you are missing the main point of this project. None of these tracks had a budget or record company backing. Most of them were done at home on 4-tracks or on Cool Edit Pro. A few were recorded in actual studios, but with severe time constraints. Trying to match the original sound for sound becomes a valid goal when working under these restraints and it often takes more creativity and ingenuity than if you completely rework the song. It’s an amazing achievement that some of these songs even get close and I see no reason why production quality shouldn’t be judged just as much as concept / performance.

As much as I like the complete departures like "Men In Black", I think it'd get really annoying to have a whole record like that. The subtle changes are important, for example, "Cold Heart of Stone" maintains the same feel and uses some of the same sounds but adds piano, background vocals, an extended outro, and a different take on the vocals. It's a good balance of doing something appropriate for the song and individualizing it at the same time. Maybe we all could have fucked with the song forms and sang the chorus first and then the bridge and then the first verse, but I don't think the majority of Frank's songs could work that way.

As for the B-Sides, are we supposed to ignore a terrible recording and terrible performances and select them solely on the basis that the artist had more conviction or that their track departed more from the original? Bullshit.

And for the love of God, Dolby NR needs to be turned on during RECORDING as well as during playback. It encodes to tape and decodes from tape. If you only turn it on during the mix it makes things sound worse!

www.mp3.com/clootie
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1602 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2003 :  11:03:15  Show Profile  Visit the swimmer's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Atheist4Catholics



And for the love of God, Dolby NR needs to be turned on during RECORDING as well as during playback. It encodes to tape and decodes from tape. If you only turn it on during the mix it makes things sound worse!





I think it's pronounced "Dubly".
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos

Canada
4496 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2003 :  13:03:26  Show Profile  Visit Dave Noisy's Homepage
I dunno.. If a band jams out a song 20 or 30 times(and not listen to the original), you'll start to see it shift.. Hopefully in a good direction.
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molin
- FB Fan -

USA
15 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2003 :  13:27:45  Show Profile  Visit molin's Homepage
Having not eaten yet I shall take this chance to rebut while still grumpy...

quote:
Originally posted by Atheist4Catholics

I don't think ANY of the covers are straight "sound alikes" with the exception of maybe "Oddballs", but they did a great job matching it.



Obviously we disagree, but that's fine and dandy (like sour candy).

quote:

I think some of you are missing the main point of this project. None of these tracks had a budget or record company backing. Most of them were done at home on 4-tracks or on Cool Edit Pro. A few were recorded in actual studios, but with severe time constraints. Trying to match the original sound for sound becomes a valid goal when working under these restraints and it often takes more creativity and ingenuity than if you completely rework the song. It’s an amazing achievement that some of these songs even get close and I see no reason why production quality shouldn’t be judged just as much as concept / performance.



Well I guess I would say it's not really amazing to recreate direct-to-2 track live recordings, as all the Catholics tunes are. Now recreating his earlier stuff is something else, of course, I can agree with you there. Not many people did that, but gold stars all around.

quote:

As much as I like the complete departures like "Men In Black", I think it'd get really annoying to have a whole record like that.



I think it would never get annoying to have a CD full of songs I enjoy listening to, regardless of how they came about.

quote:

The subtle changes are important, for example, "Cold Heart of Stone" maintains the same feel and uses some of the same sounds but adds piano, background vocals, an extended outro, and a different take on the vocals. It's a good balance of doing something appropriate for the song and individualizing it at the same time. Maybe we all could have fucked with the song forms and sang the chorus first and then the bridge and then the first verse, but I don't think the majority of Frank's songs could work that way.



Right, a good balance, wish we'd gotten some more of that.

quote:

As for the B-Sides, are we supposed to ignore a terrible recording and terrible performances and select them solely on the basis that the artist had more conviction or that their track departed more from the original? Bullshit.



Some things are more valuable than recording quality. Let me give you an unrelated example: The Ramones tribute CD. Some of the covers on there are awful. Take U2's "Beat on the Brat". Doesn't fit them, sticks very close to the orginal, but has modern production values. The recording quality of the Ramones' version is akin to that of many of our B-sides. I somehow have the feeling you would prefer the U2 version just because it fits the mold, where the original really only has "more conviction" going for it.
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =

Canada
3580 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2003 :  13:37:47  Show Profile
Either it sounds good, or it doesn't. Either the lo or hi fidelity of song works for it, or it doesn't. I don't like Bee Thousand because it's lo-fi, and I don't like Orange because it's hi-fi. I like them both becuase they have great songs and the production works for the songs. It's really that simple. If the fidelity of track, either lo or hi, takes away from the song, then that's bad. I would say there are parts of Nevermind that are too polished (some would say the whole record), and I would say there are some GBV songs that would really benefit from a re-record in a studio.
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =

USA
925 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2003 :  17:30:57  Show Profile  Visit Atheist4Catholics's Homepage
molin - We obviously have conflicting personalities because everything you say annoys me! I'm not saying that good production has to sound like a million bucks. I love The Ramones and like "lo-fi" stuff better than the glossy, over-produced stuff but if it sounds like crap because the person didn't know what they were doing or had no talent, then it sounds like crap. I've been purposefully not reviewing the B-sides because I think with the exception of the few I've mentioned liking, the rest are total garbage. I'd like to be a constructive critic, but I don't know where to begin with some of them. They either don't know what they're doing, or they did the thing an hour before it was due.

By saying we shouldn't ignore recording values and performances, I'm not saying we should ignore conviction. I AM saying that if the majority of the B-sides have ANY redeeming qualities that it MUST be conviction because it sure ain't the other two and in most cases it's nothing.

I think recreating the Catholics stuff with a four track is very amazing. Trying to get those sounds out of an SM57 with a shitty EQ instead of the multitude of thousand dollar plus microphones and vintage gear is an acheivement.


www.mp3.com/clootie
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Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =

USA
899 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2003 :  18:18:08  Show Profile  Visit Chris Knight's Homepage
A4C
quote:
I AM saying that if the majority of the B-sides have ANY redeeming qualities that it MUST be conviction because it sure ain't the other two and in most cases it's nothing.

There's your Simon Cowell right there, folks! God bless ya, Tim.
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molin
- FB Fan -

USA
15 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2003 :  20:38:28  Show Profile  Visit molin's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Atheist4Catholics

molin - We obviously have conflicting personalities because everything you say annoys me!



Well I guess we must agree to disagree then on all things then. I did like your songs though.

Also, I don't want it to seem like I'm blaming Dean for somehow picking the wrong songs (although I feel strongly about 2 of the B-sides being mistakes); I think he picked the only ones he could for the most part given the sound quality goal.
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =

Canada
11523 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2003 :  00:34:02  Show Profile  Visit Cult_Of_Frank's Homepage
No worries. Everyone will have their own opinions on which songs should make the CD, and though you and I obviously didn't pick the same songs, I did do my best to factor personal preference out and tried to balance no less than 9 factors when choosing the final tracklist. But it's a moot point because we're releasing some artwork next week with a really snazzy lookng do-it-yourself sleeve that you can add a tracklist to, and then you can make your CD as you want it. The songs are all there for you.
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