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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
 Posted - 08/25/2004 : 11:47:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
The Canadian economy will have to exist entirely on ice hockey and lengths of hose.
Isn't that right?
Kind regards,
Dr. Simon
Specialist In Broken Hearts
Lengths of hose, lol, really lol, heh.
Hockey's already not ours anymore...
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"The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle; pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice." |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 12:03:04
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| Look on the bright side. You still have plenty of natural resources to deplete. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 12:07:00
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| I've always said you haven't really enjoyed a natural resource until you've depleted one... |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 12:32:08
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Yes yes, oil, trees, water, baby seals...
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"The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle; pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice." |
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Adam
= Cult of Ray =
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 12:37:55
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and mountians. Don't forget about strip mining
Free the Heel! |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 13:24:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
COF - Consolidation doesnt in and of itself stifle competition. If the big co's dont do a better job of bringing products to the market they will fail. If their corporate citizenship doesnt meet with community standards to the point of boycott or taking their business elsewhere they will fail.
The market is imminently better at deciding which stores survive and which dont then government regulations or even a handful of activists.
Also, don't overreact to my 'yank bashing' comment, I dont think that is what this thread was about. I was just reacting to the "yet another America take over yet another Canadian staple" and such and re-reading it looks like I was pissed or offended. Too much hyperbole from me on that one.
Well, I agree to a certain extent. The market works on the principle that those who provide the best products or services for the best price are those that flourish. However, I think where that kind of thinking is flawed is when you have one company competing in many, many markets. Probably more than you or I could fathom.
Then it's no longer about best service/product. It becomes a matter of using the price-side of the free-market equation to offset mediocrity or even equality in products and leveraging income from other markets.
For example... store X opens. They sell discount clothing, groceries, hardware, toys, you name it. They open right next to a successful and privately owned toy store (store Y).
Now free market works when it's toy store vs toy store. Both have to make money selling toys and so the better store (which could be a combination of price, service, variety, location, and many other factors) wins.
In the model we're seeing become more prevalent, store X would do one of the following things:
a) Buy store y and either close it down or include it in its family of stores.
b) Undercut store y. subsidized by its many other products and the draw created by housing so many items under one roof, by drawing on its multinational power/money reserves, and making it unprofitable to compete.
Either case means the slow diminishing of the privately owned store in exchange for large conglomerates becoming larger and more dominant. Generally, these large conglomerates are publically traded. Essentially what you've done is replaced private business with publically owned ones... except that we don't elect the people running this business, and their motives are solely self-serving.
If that's the model we want to encourage, then I'd sooner see government owned stores since at least I have some say in who runs them, how they're run, and some (maybe false) assurance that their is at least the guise of being run for the public good. And I assure you this is not something I'd ever ever want to see.
 "When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 13:40:45
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Shareholders get to elect the board of directors who have or are supposed to have an influence on the execs.
Also, market value of shares is quite an economic indicator for a public company. So trading activity can have an influence.
c) Don't forget the sleek marketing campaigns designed to guide you to conclusions about what types of products are most important to spend your money on.
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"The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle; pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice." |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 08/25/2004 13:46:55 |
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 13:53:32
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No one seems to point out or notice the Canadian companies taking over their american couterparts...
Jean Coutu buying out Maxi-Drugs
Seagrams buying part of Time-Warner
....this whole topic is a bit moot....business is business and they are all assholes....
....and as for the fear of Walmartization of businesses, guess what, by the time they do take over, if they do (current trends show that the opposite is happening) we will not be paying 30$ for a toothbrush because, by then, a new market paradigm will have emerged that will once again bring prices down
....it is outright naive to think that shopping at 'mom and pop' stores will have a positive impact.
The masses aren't and won't.
Mom and Pop are waiting for the highest bidder so they can have a comfortable retirement.
I am left in my politics but not completely naive. |
Edited by - frank_black_francis on 08/25/2004 13:55:46 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 14:31:41
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Right, so we should all do what the masses do just because there's lots of 'em?
What on earth are you doing on this forum? Frank Black isn't exactly a mass-media artist. I'm not left nor right, I just believe in doing what I think is right as opposed to what everyone else does. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. You're right, I'm not going to change what the masses do by shopping elsewhere, and maybe mom & pop are waiting to sell out to the highest bidder, but at least that beats being driven out of business by multinats. Call that naive if you want. Maybe a single person can't make a difference, but if everyone believes that, and believed that through history, we'd be nowhere. And why would we bother going out to vote?
If current trends show that places like WalMart are losing out (and I'd love to see that statistic since I'm doubtful), then wouldn't that be a case right there for the people who refuse to shop at these dictatorial powerhouses making some sort of impact?
Maybe we should just accept whatever negative things come along 'cause somehow some new paradigm is bound to come along sooner or later... and probably not by people who tout that the masses must be followed.
It seems to me that you haven't thought your own stance through very thoroughly and so it's mired in contradiction.
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 14:41:13
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[Angry Geek Fight]
Kind regards,
Dr. Simon
Specialist In Broken Hearts |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 14:51:29
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what is a paradigm?
 I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 15:08:54
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quote:
business is business and they are all assholes....
That might be overstating it a bit, but I basically disagree. I hate business. The whole thing makes me confused and annoyed. We really need an economic system that favors individuals over businesses, but what are the chances of that?
Eventually there will be no people or countries, just corporations.
quote:
what is a paradigm?
Basically just a pattern or worldview. I'm sure they use it differently in business, though, because they use EVERY word differently in business.
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 16:10:33
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| Thanks... this is my first news of this. I was born and lived a few years in Toronto and have fond memories of shopping there. Hopefully it will keep its unique flavor. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 18:34:15
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You mean the maple flavor?
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 20:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Right, so we should all do what the masses do just because there's lots of 'em?
What on earth are you doing on this forum? Frank Black isn't exactly a mass-media artist. I'm not left nor right, I just believe in doing what I think is right as opposed to what everyone else does. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. You're right, I'm not going to change what the masses do by shopping elsewhere, and maybe mom & pop are waiting to sell out to the highest bidder, but at least that beats being driven out of business by multinats. Call that naive if you want. Maybe a single person can't make a difference, but if everyone believes that, and believed that through history, we'd be nowhere. And why would we bother going out to vote?
If current trends show that places like WalMart are losing out (and I'd love to see that statistic since I'm doubtful), then wouldn't that be a case right there for the people who refuse to shop at these dictatorial powerhouses making some sort of impact?
Maybe we should just accept whatever negative things come along 'cause somehow some new paradigm is bound to come along sooner or later... and probably not by people who tout that the masses must be followed.
It seems to me that you haven't thought your own stance through very thoroughly and so it's mired in contradiction.
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?"
What am I doing on this forum? Are you f...in kidding? Just think, if you were on the other side, you'd make a great Nazi.
"If you dont think like me, you must be stopped."
...I wont bother retorting every point you made because it gets kinda stupid, but just to be a little stupid:
...in case you didnt catch my drift, I was suggesting that it was naive to think that 'just by' shopping at these mom and pop stores you are having an impact
....I am suggesting that the marketing strategy of many of these Trans-Nationals are leaps and bounds ahead of individual imperatives. Given that fact, as negative and pessimistic as it may be, working within the parameters of corporate rule to achieve change may be worth looking into....imagine the impact of the news that one of the Walmarts is now unionized.
....of course you can use the tired and useless credo that 'every little bit counts' to your heart's content, except Corporate Giants eat it, shit it out and sell it back to you...you havent the foggiest notion of what Corporations are up to now
....hey did you know that Monsanto has gotten into the Organic Produce game (as a subdivision of their GMOs)? Probably didnt....and yet you'd probably buy it thinking you were scoring one for individual struggle. |
Edited by - frank_black_francis on 08/26/2004 05:28:17 |
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pfeffa
= Cult of Ray =
Aruba
367 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 20:45:45
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Here's a weird perspective (especially from someone who won't even have a job in a few months): maybe we should look at corporations like bands...say a band really needs a drummer?
For years they've been using a drum machine, but there is a great drummer with a lot of talent in another city that will really make them all sound great. They had to lease the drum machine and it cost XXX dollars a year, the real drummer only charges X dollars a year.
Give me a smile...and aren't you having fun? |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 21:44:12
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quote:
Originally posted by frank_black_francis
....hey did you know that Monsanto has gotten into the Organic Produce game (as a subdivision of their GMOs)? Probably didnt....and yet you'd probably buy it thinking you were scoring one for individual struggle.
Doesn't surprise me. Organic farming is becoming a bigger and bigger segment of the food industry. As major corporations get into the game, we will see the official government definition of "organic" morphing into a hollow shell of its former self. I guess that means we should stop buying all organic produce.
So if people don't share your apathetic outlook, they must be gullible boobs, eh? |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2004 : 22:45:04
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quote:
Originally posted by frank_black_francis
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Right, so we should all do what the masses do just because there's lots of 'em?
What on earth are you doing on this forum? Frank Black isn't exactly a mass-media artist. I'm not left nor right, I just believe in doing what I think is right as opposed to what everyone else does. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. You're right, I'm not going to change what the masses do by shopping elsewhere, and maybe mom & pop are waiting to sell out to the highest bidder, but at least that beats being driven out of business by multinats. Call that naive if you want. Maybe a single person can't make a difference, but if everyone believes that, and believed that through history, we'd be nowhere. And why would we bother going out to vote?
If current trends show that places like WalMart are losing out (and I'd love to see that statistic since I'm doubtful), then wouldn't that be a case right there for the people who refuse to shop at these dictatorial powerhouses making some sort of impact?
Maybe we should just accept whatever negative things come along 'cause somehow some new paradigm is bound to come along sooner or later... and probably not by people who tout that the masses must be followed.
It seems to me that you haven't thought your own stance through very thoroughly and so it's mired in contradiction.
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?"
What am I doing on this forum? Are you f...in kidding? Just think, if you were on the other side, you'd make a great Nazi.
"If you dont think like me, you must be stopped."
...I wont bother retorting every point you made because it gets kinda stupid, but just to be a little stupid:
...in case you didnt catch my drift, I was suggesting that it was naive to think that 'just by' shopping at these mom and pop stores you are having an impact
....I am suggesting that the marketing strategy of many of these Trans-Nationals are leaps and bounds ahead of individual imperatives. Given that fact, as negative and pessimistic as it may be, working within the parameters of corporate rule to achieve change may be worth looking into....imagine the impact of the news that one of the Walmarts is now unionized.
....of course you can use the tired and useless credo that 'every little bit counts' to your heart's content, except Corporate Giants eat it, shit it out and sell it back to you...you havent the foggiest notion of what Corporations are up to now
....hey did you know that Monsanto has gotten into the Organic Produce game (as a subdivision of their GMOs)? Probably didnt....and yet you'd probably buy it thinking you were scoring one for individual struggle.
You're right, this is getting stupid. If you'd read instead of flying off the handle on the nazi charges, my question of "What are you doing on the forum" would clearly have not meant that you don't belong here, just that if we're only doing what the masses do, you shouldn't be listening to Frank Black. Rather, enjoy your fill of Britney, Avril, and all the rest... because if what little fans (relative to the massive amount of people listening to the crap above) FB has said, "Well, what's the point" then he certainly couldn't be making a living doing music, now could he? It's called parallelism.
Frankly, I find your arguments bitter, defensive, and offensive all at the same time. You want to argue, fine, but "naive" and "stupid" are not conducive to a calm and level-headed debate. If you feel you need to justify giving in to corporate rule then you probably already know you shouldn't be.
Now, breathing slightly: I'm curious (honestly) how you think we might work within the framework of multinats to make things better? Moreover, do you think unionization is a step in that direction? Also, how else do you think we might slow the trend towards this, if not by choosing where we spend our dollars with some discretion?
And yes, I did know about Monsanto. I live in Saskatchewan, and I'm actually not a fan of theirs at all. Their lawsuit against that farmer who had their GM Canola blow into his field (or even if he planted it deliberately) was patently ridiculous.
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2004 : 05:25:14
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well....I guess I did read that line the wrong way....my apologies.
But if you did know about Monsanto, then you should understand my point. It is getting harder and harder to tell if you really are buying in places that really are having a positive impact. For example, Starbucks, I dont know if they have already, had plans to feature an option to buy 'equitable' coffee at their stores. So many of us who may think we're spending our dollars with consideration are not.
Unionization gives a 'heads up' to other Trans-National corporations....they dont like it, but they eventually start offering benefits to workers to avoid unionization. So it does have a positive impact....far more than buying 'equitable' coffee at Starbucks.
...oh and i take the nazi comment back. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2004 : 07:05:15
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A Wal-Mart in Quebec has union certification.
http://www.ufcw.ca/cgi-bin/full_story.cgi?story_id=1253&from_page=6
______________________________________________________________________________________
"The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle; pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice." |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2004 : 07:48:35
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No problems fbf, glad we're sorted... and it is increasingly difficult to tell who owns what and whose claws are in where. I almost think there should be some sort of legislation to limit the amount of conglomeration a company can participate in, though I'm not generally a fan of business legislation. It would have to be done carefully - and would be almost certain death for a politician, I would imagine.
The other problem with transnats is that they are generally not based here... I mean, it's great when a company from your own country is successful, grows, and expands out of country. It's even beneficial for the country they expand into to some extent - jobs, some tax money, etc. But the bulk of it goes back to hq and that's more often than not nowhere in Canada. I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about this particular problem...
Yeah, I heard about that, Carolyn, as two Sask ones were/are also trying for unions. I wonder how long until they close that WalMart? Personally, I'm not really pro-union in the sense that they're often as big and corrupt as the businesses they're "protecting" people from and in often cases it makes the relationship adversarial and worse. That said, maybe they'll be a necessity once we have only a handful of corporations controlling everything and quitting a job is not an option since the company and it's subsidiaries won't hire you back.
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2004 : 12:29:27
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Please direct all complaints to the Monsanto Corporation!
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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There goes another......
