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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
 Posted - 06/24/2004 : 20:46:14
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(cliche time) why is america such a messed up place?
we take our messed up ways into other countries and try to force them upon people on their own land.
innocent people suddenly get dropped off by u.s. soldiers in vegetative states and signs of torture are easily seen on and about their poor bodies.
i have been trying to convince my girlfriend to move to either australia or new zealand to distance us from this country i have come to look shamefully upon. she has a hard time distancing herself from her family though. understandable.
is there anyone else that lives here in the u.s. that really feels like they should move somewhere else or would benefit from a transition?
my career makes me want to stay, as i enjoy it, but the rest of me would love to live elsewhere....
all this wine tonight doesn't help either...hehe.
i bet i'll wish i didn't type this later...
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:04:01
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lately i'm really tired of people who have this attitude of our country is fucked up but don't actively do anything.. i'm not singling you out noexx (i have no idea what you do or don't do and you seem like an intelligent guy) but so many people have this attitude of, "i'm embarassed to be American".
granted, things are fucked up. and as a county we do have a lot to be embarassed about, and it's good to question things and criticize your government. i just don't like this defeatist attitude i see so much.
instead of just resigining ourselves to everything is fucked, maybe we can make an effort to change things. and, in the mean time, focus on some of the positive things??
if everyone who thinks things are fucked up just leaves, what good willl that do?
believe me, i'm far from a flag-waver.. i just think we shouldn't just give up. next time you travel abroad and get into the inevitable political discussion (and America/Bush bashing), instead of being ashamed of your country try and show the positive side of it, by the example of yourself as an individual and an American citizen. |
Edited by - floop on 06/25/2004 00:20:01 |
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:25:06
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i think a lot of people that get mad at people for not liking this country (u.s.a.) need to think about things differently.
everytime someone says they don't enjoy the u.s. or the way things happen here there is someone else to call them a coward or someone that cannot do anything about it.
i have lived here for over 27 years and have been involved politically in amny different ventures. just because i enjoy another countries way of living does not mean i have been defeated. i just don't agree with a lot of what this countries government believes in. i cannot actively change the way this country operates. if you believe i personally can then good for you (by you i mean anyone reading this). i just don't want to be part of a social environment that i don't fully agree with.
now, how i may act upon this is a whole different situation. i will probably stay here and get involved politically in different arenas as my girlfriend wants to do. but, i wouldn't mind living on a different piece of this planet where i don't have to be ashamed everytime i read/hear about something my government leaders have done, these leaders of the government that are supposed to represent me as an individual and as a whole.
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:32:09
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I hear you, noexx, but floop, you make a very good point. And there is nowhere that is going to be better even if one were to ignore your important point. The rest of the world has the same weaknesses, cruelties, and hypocricies, but I'm not sure that most places could afford me the same rights and avenues to enact change, even if those avenues are getting more and more ugly and narrow. This war in Iraq may not have been supported by the countries you want to live in (thoug I believe Australia and New Zealand did support us), but I am sure they have been involved in other "unfortunate" dealings. Governments and people and corporations seem to be the same no matter where you live.
I swear though, where the hell do you start? I have no idea. NO IDEA. Sure, the environment and health care and a liveable wage are all important, but what difference do these things make when we are more and more living under a police state? I want to make a difference. I inform myself, but I don't trust any sources. Do we have a dearth of real information, and how can we act effectively when the news is all spun responses to media-think-tank-lobbyist-formed extremes?
If we can't protect our rights to a FREE media, and our civil rights, the rest of our concerns are dust. |
Edited by - apl4eris on 06/24/2004 21:33:57 |
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:35:23
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| i am not saying any countyr int he world is innocent of wrong doings....and by moving i am not saying it will "free" me from evil. i have enjoyed my time in the australia/new zealand area and want to further my life there i believe. i can honestly say i believe less government wrong happens there than does in the wonderful u.s.a. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:44:03
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| Maybe so, but arguably due to US domination as the major world power -the US in effect insures that those places you mentioned can be free from having to do the dirty work. That's all I meant, not that I thought you viewed those countries as utopian paradises. Sorry if I came across that way. :) |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:45:36
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for the record, i have nothing agianst moving to another country. it's the attitude of "we're fucked and there's nothing we can do" that bothers me.
personally, i'd like to move to Barcelona. there's a thriving art community there. the city is beautiful. the weather is beautiful. and the women are BEAUTIFUL!
i would have no problem with taking a siesta after lunch and then going out till all hours of the night every night. no problem at all. |
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 22:06:48
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| i like food. |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 22:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
i would have no problem with taking a siesta after lunch and then going out till all hours of the night every night. no problem at all.
And do something to make things better in your spare time?
There is at least one reasonable argument in favor of the defeatist attitude (with respect not just to America, but the whole world). The problem is that there are far too many people influencing one another's lives and competing against each other. In a tribe/village/troupe of a couple hundred people (or apes), you know and care about everyone that influences your life, and the relationship is reciprocal. You have shared interest and a reason to cooperate. In huge societies, sure, there are people who have the global interest in mind, but plenty of others who could give a shit. And even those who agree that global welfare is desirable differ on what it means or how to achieve it.
My point: we should never have come down out of the trees. Recently in the random thread I said intelligence is an evolutionary disaster. I wasn't joking. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 22:16:36
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quote:
Originally posted by fudd
quote:
Originally posted by floop
i would have no problem with taking a siesta after lunch and then going out till all hours of the night every night. no problem at all.
And do something to make things better in your spare time?
please. i was just trying to illustrate the point that, yes, living in other countries can be appealing. noexx said that he enjoyed his time in Australia.
i enjoyed my time in Barcelona. quite a bit. |
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 23:35:48
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| i'd like to go to barcelona....it could be a very good learning experience i imagine. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 00:13:56
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quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
I swear though, where the hell do you start? I have no idea. NO IDEA. Sure, the environment and health care and a liveable wage are all important, but what difference do these things make when we are more and more living under a police state? I want to make a difference. I inform myself, but I don't trust any sources. Do we have a dearth of real information, and how can we act effectively when the news is all spun responses to media-think-tank-lobbyist-formed extremes?
One starts by voting this November and contributing time and/or money to the issues or parties you think are best. I'm not singling you out apl4eris, just using your posting to start my rant.
I'm sure many of the people that talk about being embarassed by the US or ridicule our country's role in the world don't vote. If the irony-laden slackers voted they would make a difference (the last election showed the difference a few hundred votes could make), but they would rather be hip and self-righteous. |
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 00:17:12
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| yep, my girlfriend is very actively involved in the party she sides with. i will vote for sure. i think everyone should vote for the person and people they have the most political interests with. |
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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 00:51:35
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Fuck it. I'm moving to Antarctica.
"You gotta watch the mota, Thurston. Yr fuckin memory just goes out the window." |
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Opaque
= Cult of Ray =
USA
251 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 03:05:46
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Australia actually does sound kind of nice actually. I would very much like to see a platypus. 
"You've gotta listen for a weird, strange noise. Something out of the ordinary." - John Crichton |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 05:20:13
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
quote:
Originally posted by fudd
quote:
Originally posted by floop
i would have no problem with taking a siesta after lunch and then going out till all hours of the night every night. no problem at all.
And do something to make things better in your spare time?
please. i was just trying to illustrate the point that, yes, living in other countries can be appealing. noexx said that he enjoyed his time in Australia.
i enjoyed my time in Barcelona. quite a bit.
I am definitely going to have to learn how to use smilies one of these days. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 06:53:11
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
I swear though, where the hell do you start? I have no idea. NO IDEA. Sure, the environment and health care and a liveable wage are all important, but what difference do these things make when we are more and more living under a police state? I want to make a difference. I inform myself, but I don't trust any sources. Do we have a dearth of real information, and how can we act effectively when the news is all spun responses to media-think-tank-lobbyist-formed extremes?
One starts by voting this November and contributing time and/or money to the issues or parties you think are best. I'm not singling you out apl4eris, just using your posting to start my rant.
I'm sure many of the people that talk about being embarassed by the US or ridicule our country's role in the world don't vote. If the irony-laden slackers voted they would make a difference (the last election showed the difference a few hundred votes could make), but they would rather be hip and self-righteous.
I vote, darwin. I don't think that's the answer, because there is no difference between the parties anymore, save for the token issues. What matters to me does not get represented by our current 2 party system. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 07:48:56
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I would have major issues with the two party system, personally. It seems ironic to me that a country so steeped in capitalism and the merits of healthy competition limits itself to two parties for the most important role in the country.
That said, sometimes more doesn't help. Our elections are next week and I'm still completely undecided.
 "When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 07:54:22
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You want justification for a defeatist attitude? Check out today's news. Just imagine the faces of the winners and the losers on the cancer ward as they open up their envelopes. If our society/government is capable of doing something like this, it is beyond hope. Way beyond.
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 07:58:52
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I agree with Floop, though. A person has to do (and make an effort to do) what they feel is best, and giving up only keeps things as they are.
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 08:37:58
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| During the late '90s I was so disgusted with the Clintons and an American electorate which consistently gave them positive ratings that I investigated emigrating. Eventually I decided that my best options were even more fucked up (infested with socialism) than we were. I did manage to write my local Registrar of Voters requesting that I be removed from the roll of voters. Must say I do wish Altman and Baldwin had followed through on their vows to move to France. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 12:12:11
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What's wrong with socialism?
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 14:04:13
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
What's wrong with socialism?
Given that I've tormented the forum (at least to the best of my ability) over this only forever, I'll spare the argument and bile. But the shortest answer is "everything". And the shorter answer is "it's against the will of nature", much as earlier generations might have said "against the will of god". It causes more societal problems than it solves and is doomed to near-term failure due to conflict with human nature. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 14:13:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
What's wrong with socialism?
Given that I've tormented the forum (at least to the best of my ability) over this only forever, I'll spare the argument and bile. But the shortest answer is "everything". And the shorter answer is "it's against the will of nature", much as earlier generations might have said "against the will of god". It causes more societal problems than it solves and is doomed to near-term failure due to conflict with human nature.
Erebus - Funny reply, "everything". Maybe you need a standard reply you can paste in.
Sociality does work in some cases (i.e. ants, bats, naked mole rats, ect). So it can work, but probably not for us. Interesting, in some natural cases it works because of what you might call repression. Worker ants are to some extent prevented from reproducing by the queen. Maybe we need a benevolent dictator. How do you feel about Mr. Libertarian?  |
Edited by - darwin on 06/25/2004 14:14:52 |
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darkoutsider
= Cult of Ray =
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 15:50:45
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I feel the same way about how people bitch and bitch but do nothing when the time comes to act. I've been doing my part. I think, by talking about the issues and voting and all that lovely stuff. But some people just go blah blah blah and when it's time to do something about it... they don't do anything. Bitches!!
In my defense... I'm just sayin' |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 16:39:29
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quote:
Maybe we need a benevolent dictator. How do you feel about Mr. Libertarian?
A benevolent Libertarian? Is that like cold fire, or fried ice cream?
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 17:04:13
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
quote:
Maybe we need a benevolent dictator. How do you feel about Mr. Libertarian?
A benevolent Libertarian? Is that like cold fire, or fried ice cream?
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo.
That was suppose to read "How do you feel about that Mr. Libertarian?" with Erebus being the LIbertartian. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 20:02:37
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Oh, I see. That makes more sense. I kind of thought you were saying Erebus should be the benevolent dictator.
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 08:53:42
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
What's wrong with socialism?
Given that I've tormented the forum (at least to the best of my ability) over this only forever, I'll spare the argument and bile. But the shortest answer is "everything". And the shorter answer is "it's against the will of nature", much as earlier generations might have said "against the will of god". It causes more societal problems than it solves and is doomed to near-term failure due to conflict with human nature.
Erebus - Funny reply, "everything". Maybe you need a standard reply you can paste in.
Sociality does work in some cases (i.e. ants, bats, naked mole rats, ect). So it can work, but probably not for us. Interesting, in some natural cases it works because of what you might call repression. Worker ants are to some extent prevented from reproducing by the queen. Maybe we need a benevolent dictator. How do you feel about Mr. Libertarian?
First Edict: "Everyone will be free whether they like it or not." 'But First One, everybody knows freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.'
Sometimes it seems like isms are little more than exercises in self-mockery. |
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