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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
 Posted - 07/02/2004 : 11:45:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur
What you are saying right now is that there is a language animals have that we are not able to understand. This is, of course, not impossible, and it can also be applied to objects.
Most of what you two are talking about is going over my head, but undoubtably animals have languages we don't understand. How do elephants decide which way to go to find water? How do dolphins coordinate herding tuna? How do ants communicate the location of food? They communicate with other using sounds and chemicals. Does not qualify as language?
Also there has been a long history of saying that humans are different animals because of X and then some animals are shown to posses X. Tool use is an example and I think rational is as well. In my opinion, we're smart social animals, but we're still animals. |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 11:57:30
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'I believe I found the missing link between animal and civilized man - it's us'. - Konrad Lorenz
"Join the Friends of FB.net / and win your weight in cereals"  |
Edited by - Frog in the Sand on 07/02/2004 11:59:30 |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 16:25:40
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Hey Monsieur, sorry to bring your world crashing down around your shoulders, but many non-human animals are quite capable of reason, and have demonstrated it.
Check out this story of Rico, a border collie from Australia who is quite adept at figuring out what we zany humans are trying to communictate:
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?section=SCIENCE&oid=53538
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 16:48:54
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Sorry, I suppose some might not know what a grand slam is. In American baseball, a grand slam is scoring the maximum amount of points in one hit, or otherwise known as a bases loaded home run. So, what I meant by "grand slam" was a winning argument.
It's also a breakfast platter at Denny's.
On a more serious note, since Tre mentioned Krishna, I've always kind of wondered whether there's a connection between the words "Krishna" and "Christ." They're both incarnations of God, after all.
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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meifen
- FB Fan -
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 16:51:04
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur
What you are saying right now is that there is a language animals have that we are not able to understand. This is, of course, not impossible, and it can also be applied to objects.
Most of what you two are talking about is going over my head, but undoubtably animals have languages we don't understand. How do elephants decide which way to go to find water? How do dolphins coordinate herding tuna? How do ants communicate the location of food? They communicate with other using sounds and chemicals. Does not qualify as language?
Also there has been a long history of saying that humans are different animals because of X and then some animals are shown to posses X. Tool use is an example and I think rational is as well. In my opinion, we're smart social animals, but we're still animals.
I recall a professor having told us once that a certain breed of money or apes (big difference, i know, but I can't remember ALL the details), have at least like 20 different calls to signal for danger - different kinds, food - again different calls to communicate more precisely, etc. I just think it's interesting, cuz there is still so much we do not know. Kind of unrelated but I work with people with disabilities and have often though about how they were treated through history. Often times they were considered sub human and definetely had no rights. Now even animals have rights. I wonder what it will all look like later on.
Ever gone to the zoo and gone into the "ape house" or whatever little land they are given? Looked at their faces...?
Don't really believe in God. (sorry God). Heaven? A little convenient. Give money to the church all your life and do good and shit and when you die, you just go somewhere better.... I could go on ranting, but I wont. I was raised Methodist, and I have no problem with others of other religions etc. To each his own as far as I'm concerned  . It just seems that all signs point to ... no. 
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"You think you're so cool cuz you can pee with your penis...!" -Rob Schneider |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 16:52:36
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I guess Krishna is a Hindi or Sanskrit word, whereas Christ comes from the ancient Greek. There may be a connection stemming back to Alexander the Great (I think he made it over to India) but I would imagine its purely linguistic rather than having any religious significance.
I may be wrong, its been known.
Kind regards,
Simon
Admissions |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 17:03:48
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
[quote]On a more serious note, since Tre mentioned Krishna, I've always kind of wondered whether there's a connection between the words "Krishna" and "Christ." They're both incarnations of God, after all.
VoVat, are you familiar with Joseph Campbell? He was an amazing social anthropologist, and traced many of the world's religions and myths, and their connections. Very very interesting and wonderful guy, and findings.
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 17:42:05
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I've heard of him and his work, but I haven't actually read anything by him. Maybe I should look into that.
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 21:11:24
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Here's a neat bio on him:
http://www.jcf.org/about_jc.php
I'm rather unfamiliar, tho the TV show sounds pretty neat..i've heard of it, tho i don't think i've seen it.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 03:25:13
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I've never said that animals didn't have any intelligence - it's self awareness I was talking about. The fact that a dog can recognize an object that is not familiar to him has nothing to do with this.
Once again, Dave, I have nothing against your commitment to animal rights. But this only makes sense if we are self-aware and responsible beings - and animals are not. Because if animals are morally responsible, than why shouldn't they become vegans themselves... |
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begeegs
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
81 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 08:51:48
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quote:
Originally posted by NimrodsSon
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
I wouldn't blame all our problems on religion. Some religions, especially eastern mystical religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, etc. are very peaceful and do encourage things like stewardship of the environment. I would, however, go so far as to say that Christianity and the religions it stems from are the causes of most, if not all of the world's problems, and I don't think that's an exaggeration. It certainly sounds silly and naive, but if you look back in history at the very root of all the world's problems, I'd say that Christianity, Judaeism, and Islam would play a very important role in 95% of them.
ˇViva los Católicos!
True, they do. At the moment there is a line of "Christian" thinking in the US that is incredibly commerical especially with the 700 Club merging with Fox. Suddenly, God has commerical value. But it doesn't end there because there are bastardized versions of the Muslim faith and Judiasm, although not as commerical, equally as mis-guided as the people who think that they should pray to the television set while the smiling "priest" rakes in their dollars.
It was enough for me to try to find something new outside of ancient texts. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 23:29:33
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No Monsieur, you said animals weren't 'rational'.
Now you're changing the story. ;)
I'm sure there are examples of non-human animals displaying self-awareness. Save me some time and lemme know what your next criterium is, i'll get you proof of both at once. =P
(The self-awareness one might be tough tho...i bet you couldn't actually prove another human that didn't speak the same language as you was self-aware..)
I think it would be great if all creatures were vegan, and who the hell knows, maybe some day we'll be able to communicate with other species, and this might eventually be a reality.
For now tho, it does nothing to diminish the fact that we as humans living in the 'modern world' have absolutely no need to consume the flesh or fluids of other creatures.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 16:22:17
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dave, as a practicing vegan, i'm curious what you think about vegan hot dogs?
while there are plenty of vegan inventions i like (i like the gardenburger patties sometimes, for instance), i think the vegan hotdogs taste like severe ass. those have a long way to go. |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2004 : 08:27:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
No Monsieur, you said animals weren't 'rational'.
Now you're changing the story. ;)
I'm sure there are examples of non-human animals displaying self-awareness. Save me some time and lemme know what your next criterium is, i'll get you proof of both at once. =P
(The self-awareness one might be tough tho...i bet you couldn't actually prove another human that didn't speak the same language as you was self-aware..)
I think it would be great if all creatures were vegan, and who the hell knows, maybe some day we'll be able to communicate with other species, and this might eventually be a reality.
For now tho, it does nothing to diminish the fact that we as humans living in the 'modern world' have absolutely no need to consume the flesh or fluids of other creatures.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer!
Self awareness and rationality are closely related through the concept of language.
Two questions Dave :
1. Do you think ALL animal species are self aware and able to communicate. Is there a hierarchy?
2. Some animals DO eat other animals, right? So, if we are nothing but animals, and not superior to them, then why shouldn't we eat them? It would be very natural.
Once again, don't think I'm trying to convince you about anything. My own opinions are not so clear. But I think it's interesting to discuss it with someone who defends his opinions, like you do. |
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Religion is Scary
