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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
 Posted - 06/30/2004 : 04:19:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose Jones
i could type out why i disagree with your point of view, but that would be a very long response, and i know you'd read the first two sentences, skip the rest, then say i'm babbling and crazy.
Nope. Just evasive. You can't answer the question because the argument is solid. (I am referring here to the argument that creationism raises a bigger question than it answers.)
p.s. When I said you were crazy I was kidding you in response to what you said. Babbling- well, yes, that line was babble. |
Edited by - fudd on 06/30/2004 04:32:54 |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 04:34:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Tre
Because I have the label scientist
What do you do? |
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4894 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 05:17:53
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Biomolecular science, which involves genetic engineering.
You wait, and if nothing happens, you wait some more. It's like a bug high on the wall. You wait for it to come to you. When it gets close enough you reach out, slap out and kill it. Or if you like it's looks, you make a pet out of it."
- Charles Bukowski
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4894 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 05:43:57
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oh yeah...
BPrend - Two *Whole* dinosours huh! two! Is that it? Big Giant lizards that came in... um.... a hundred different types! And the Bible mentions... two.... Well fuck me I must have been wrong all these years.. what a total fucking revelation that was... I was blind and now am confused.
Playero - "Yet I still am not convinced by science, evolution, etc." I'm sorry if this sounds rude but I would probably put your lack of conviction in these matters to a simple lack of understanding. Evolution is a fact I'm afraid... The proof of this can be seen on an every day basis, every day every human being every living breathing creature evolves as a whole and at a cellular level, we adapt we change. As human beings in every eukaryotic cell in our body we have a prime examle of evolution, it's a little factory workhouse energy maker called a mitochondria (ringing any bells...) whose DNA and mRNA is different to that of every other part of the cell because it is not our own, at some primal evolutionary stage we took up this "being" (probably bacterial in origin) into our own cells because it helped us to grow. This is evolution by symbiosis.
What gets on my nerves more than most things is twisting scientific FACT to become Christian FICTION.....
hey everybody we evolved from apes..
you mean like monkeys!
big hairy apes...
but god made us in his own image man!
these guys are trying to tell us God is a big ape, fuck you!
are we hell, you evolved, at some point we were simple cellular beings and we evolved and branched off and evolved some more, so yes, our DNA is largely compatible wih the primates... as it is with the mice, and plants and everything with cells.... to once again quote Bill Hicks...(just because I want to)
You ever noticed how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved? Ya ever noticed that? Eyes real close together, eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet.
"I believe God created me in one day"
Yeah, looks like He rushed it.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
You wait, and if nothing happens, you wait some more. It's like a bug high on the wall. You wait for it to come to you. When it gets close enough you reach out, slap out and kill it. Or if you like it's looks, you make a pet out of it."
- Charles Bukowski
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 07:57:01
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It does take humility (something which a lot of us in this thread would do well to cultivate) to be a Christian. I am not being degraded. I have my own free will to use. I have my own pursuits. Really, who are we as humans to be so haughty? We have not figured out the meaning of life. We can't solve the world's problems. Wars will not cease. Peace will not exist with humans in control. This has been proven for centuries now. Things are getting worse.
I was not a believer of any sort, until a few years ago. I thought the things taught in the Bible were ridiculous and didn't make sense. That's why I understand where the atheists come from. However, I also understand that most religions are bogus in what they teach, and how they try to answer questions.
I do not defend the whole of religion, or the whole of Christianity. The atrocities that religion has committed in history has proven they are guilty of much of the world's problems. The only Christianity I defend is that which is taught and adhered to by Jehovah's Witnesses. Their answers to Bible questions have been more satisfying, comforting, reasonable, than any other religion.
So, what I'm saying is...I don't look down upon your (atheists) view of things. So, don't look down upon a person's choice to pursue religion. I've studied the Bible. I understand why certain things happened, why certain things were said, why it says to do certain things.
None of us here are going to convince anyone else to change from religious to atheist, or vice versa. There's apparent solid reasons why atheists believe what they do, and there's apparent solid reasons why religious people believe what they do.
1. I am a fsh with no i's.
2. You must be wearing Zubaz, 'cause you're daring to be different.
3. I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 10:44:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
and there's apparent solid reasons why religious people believe what they do.
I haven't seen them. Can you say anything intelligent about how creationism helps explains the world without raising even harder questions?
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4894 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 10:54:08
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I don't look down on people for any sort of religious conviction I think if a person has real faith it is a wonderfull thing, what I do object to is when people try to argue my convictions that involve a lack of faith with blind faith and ignorance.
Frank Black ate my Hamster
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Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 11:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by fudd
Can you say anything intelligent about how creationism helps explains the world without raising even harder questions?
honestly, no. i don't know.
maybe the seven days described in Genesis weren't consecutive days, rather seven specific days in a long-ass period of time on which God set new things into motion.
i'm not the kind of christian who dismisses scientific fact. it bothers me how many christians see science as some sort of evil. it all makes perfect sense, and i doubt there are black and white incongruities with the Bible and modern science.
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 11:27:46
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quote:
Originally posted by fudd
quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
and there's apparent solid reasons why religious people believe what they do.
I haven't seen them. Can you say anything intelligent about how creationism helps explains the world without raising even harder questions?
Well, a good portion of the Bible is historically and archaeologically verified, as far as solid reasons why I believe what I do goes.
If we were created, with a purpose, like the Bible says of Adam and Eve, they were told to "fill the earth and subdue it", how does that not give life much more meaning? God wanted to create something in His image, which was man, something that He could care for. Since we care for things, and since we're in God's image, it's logical He could feel this way about something. Hence, something He's fond of, and can take care of. That was the original purpose. Does this raise more questions? Of course. Anything about the start of life raises more questions. I'll be happy to try to explain from my viewpoint whatever questions arise from this. I find having a purpose to life far more satisfying for explaining the origin of life. But I'm sure you're not asking this out of curiosity...more out of contempt, because anything I were to type would be ridiculous to you, no matter how big the intelligent rating was.
Science is good. Anything science discovers or has discovered supports reaffirms the Biblical viewpoint I have. I don't hate science. Scientists will never be able to figure out everything there is to know. That fact reaffirms my beliefs, and makes me in awe of how powerful God is.
I find the fact that life began spontaneously raises far more questions than creationism. The chances of everything being in the right place at the right time, energy, proteins, matter, the earth being at perfectly the right distance from the sun...it's beyond astronomical. Science hasn't figured that out yet.
It's silly that you foster so much hatred toward religious people, who just may be trying to live the best life they can, having the best morals they can, treating others as best they can. I guess I'm guilty then.
As a Jehovah's Witness, I'm not only looked down upon by atheists, but by every other religion as well. It doesn't bother me a bit. The Bible says that true believers will be "objects of hatred by all of the nations". It just reaffirms my beliefs.
What if I'm wrong about God, creation, everything?
Well, I can look back at the end of my life and say: "I lived a darn good life. I treated people with respect. I lived with the best morals I could. I lived the most honest way I could."
I'm sure you would say: "Well I can say that at the end of my life too." Well, that just reaffirms my faith in creation and all of my beliefs again, because it's ingrained in us to live a good life, have good morals, treat people good. So, knowing that I was created, how could I not honor my God the best way I can, which would mean in part acknowledging His existence?
1. I am a fsh with no i's.
2. You must be wearing Zubaz, 'cause you're daring to be different.
3. I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
Edited by - The Calistanian on 06/30/2004 11:28:45 |
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4894 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 11:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
quote:
Originally posted by fudd
quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
and there's apparent solid reasons why religious people believe what they do.
I haven't seen them. Can you say anything intelligent about how creationism helps explains the world without raising even harder questions?
Well, a good portion of the Bible is historically and archaeologically verified, as far as solid reasons why I believe what I do goes.
God wanted to create something in His image, which was man, something that He could care for. Since we care for things, and since we're in God's image, it's logical He could feel this way about something. Hence, something He's fond of, and can take care of. That was the original purpose. Does this raise more questions? Of course. Anything about the start of life raises more questions. I'll be happy to try to explain from my viewpoint whatever questions arise from this. I find having a purpose to life far more satisfying for explaining the origin of life. But I'm sure you're not asking this out of curiosity...more out of contempt, because anything I were to type would be ridiculous to you, no matter how big the intelligent rating was.
Science is good. Anything science discovers or has discovered supports reaffirms the Biblical viewpoint I have. I don't hate science. Scientists will never be able to figure out everything there is to know. That fact reaffirms my beliefs, and makes me in awe of how powerful God is.
I find the fact that life began spontaneously raises far more questions than creationism. The chances of everything being in the right place at the right time, energy, proteins, matter, the earth being at perfectly the right distance from the sun...it's beyond astronomical. Science hasn't figured that out yet.
It's silly that you foster so much hatred toward religious people, who just may be trying to live the best life they can, having the best morals they can, treating others as best they can. I guess I'm guilty then.
As a Jehovah's Witness, I'm not only looked down upon by atheists, but by every other religion as well. It doesn't bother me a bit. The Bible says that true believers will be "objects of hatred by all of the nations". It just reaffirms my beliefs.
What if I'm wrong about God, creation, everything?
Well, I can look back at the end of my life and say: "I lived a darn good life. I treated people with respect. I lived with the best morals I could. I lived the most honest way I could."
I'm sure you would say: "Well I can say that at the end of my life too." Well, that just reaffirms my faith in creation and all of my beliefs again, because it's ingrained in us to live a good life, have good morals, treat people good. So, knowing that I was created, how could I not honor my God the best way I can, which would mean in part acknowledging His existence?
1. I am a fsh with no i's.
2. You must be wearing Zubaz, 'cause you're daring to be different.
3. I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb.
um ok...
1. God created man to take care of him? Great job god, was it not you who said in a previous post that for as long as there is humanity there will be no peace? Or is God as greedy and war-mongering as the rest of us? And if so would he still be divine?
2. Finding an explanation to life that makes sense is pointless? Is that what your saying here? Have I wasted several years of my life in study and research of this?
3. Curiosity and contempt, why do all you people go on the defensive.. if someone could argue creationism with me in a way that made any sense I would be more attuned to it, but all i ever hear is because it is... because the bible says so... because blah blah blah is all I hear. I have no contempt towards people for having faith, I think I've already said that, I said I find the whole blind faith and ignorance thing very depressing but what I'm reading on here isn't making me think in any other possible way.
4. Science is good... It is indeed but I have read the bible, was bought up a devout catholic and it contradicts nearly every major scientific discovery of importance! All this fuss about evolution, a twisting of the undeniable fact that is written not in some book thousands of years old but in the genetic code of every living thing on the planet. The Genetic engineering frankenstein foods debate, the one that makes my BLOOD BOIL, why is this unnatural? hmm? Another thing I hear all the time, where does genetic engineering fit into your biblical beliefs? Homosexuality, found amongst nearly every species animal plant (yes plant) and human, which I believe the bible is also against. Gee are you guys going to stone me for wearing garments of two different thread! I have a tasty cotton/nylon top on... or lock me away and not let me wash while I'm on my period? Incest prevelant in the bible? All well and good still?
5. I don't hate religious people, I don't hate gay people, I don't hate people of any colour denomonation or belief system. I detest however, plonkers.
6. I think you'll find the spontaneous life is more of a creationistic viewpoint than a scientific one. God said let there be man and woooooosh there he was. Evolution is a slow and painfull process that took millions of years to perfect and we are still evolving, evidence in itself that God did not make man perfect or we would have no evolutionary needs
7. I have jehovah's witnesses in the family, they are kind of hypocritical and not the bang on the door leaflet types. Of all the divinations of christianity I have looked into I have to say (and I mean no offence here) I found JW to be the most confusing of the lot! How many Jehovah's witnesses across the world are there? And what was the number of the elite again? And You embrace science and JWism? Which is a bit of a contradiction in terms when you consider the most occuring scientific progress is made within the field of medicine
8. To lead a good life is a good thing but I find it sad that people cannot just to this without having to feel like they are appeasing their god. I like to think I lead a good life and I'm not doing it to get into anyones good books
9. The bible says the bible says I wonder how many edits that thing has had over the years and I think that statement does little to help the religious guilt and paranoia so many suffer. They hate us because we're different, sheesh
10. And could it not just be that people want to live a good life because it's nicer when you're not in conflict and it's easier, why do you have to label all the good things as god made and all the bad things as man made. I think people have to have a little more faith in themselves than any supposed higher being.
Frank Black ate my Hamster
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 13:04:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Tre
quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
quote:
Originally posted by fudd
quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
and there's apparent solid reasons why religious people believe what they do.
I haven't seen them. Can you say anything intelligent about how creationism helps explains the world without raising even harder questions?
Well, a good portion of the Bible is historically and archaeologically verified, as far as solid reasons why I believe what I do goes.
God wanted to create something in His image, which was man, something that He could care for. Since we care for things, and since we're in God's image, it's logical He could feel this way about something. Hence, something He's fond of, and can take care of. That was the original purpose. Does this raise more questions? Of course. Anything about the start of life raises more questions. I'll be happy to try to explain from my viewpoint whatever questions arise from this. I find having a purpose to life far more satisfying for explaining the origin of life. But I'm sure you're not asking this out of curiosity...more out of contempt, because anything I were to type would be ridiculous to you, no matter how big the intelligent rating was.
Science is good. Anything science discovers or has discovered supports reaffirms the Biblical viewpoint I have. I don't hate science. Scientists will never be able to figure out everything there is to know. That fact reaffirms my beliefs, and makes me in awe of how powerful God is.
I find the fact that life began spontaneously raises far more questions than creationism. The chances of everything being in the right place at the right time, energy, proteins, matter, the earth being at perfectly the right distance from the sun...it's beyond astronomical. Science hasn't figured that out yet.
It's silly that you foster so much hatred toward religious people, who just may be trying to live the best life they can, having the best morals they can, treating others as best they can. I guess I'm guilty then.
As a Jehovah's Witness, I'm not only looked down upon by atheists, but by every other religion as well. It doesn't bother me a bit. The Bible says that true believers will be "objects of hatred by all of the nations". It just reaffirms my beliefs.
What if I'm wrong about God, creation, everything?
Well, I can look back at the end of my life and say: "I lived a darn good life. I treated people with respect. I lived with the best morals I could. I lived the most honest way I could."
I'm sure you would say: "Well I can say that at the end of my life too." Well, that just reaffirms my faith in creation and all of my beliefs again, because it's ingrained in us to live a good life, have good morals, treat people good. So, knowing that I was created, how could I not honor my God the best way I can, which would mean in part acknowledging His existence?
1. I am a fsh with no i's.
2. You must be wearing Zubaz, 'cause you're daring to be different.
3. I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb.
um ok...
1. God created man to take care of him? Great job god, was it not you who said in a previous post that for as long as there is humanity there will be no peace? Or is God as greedy and war-mongering as the rest of us? And if so would he still be divine?
2. Finding an explanation to life that makes sense is pointless? Is that what your saying here? Have I wasted several years of my life in study and research of this?
3. Curiosity and contempt, why do all you people go on the defensive.. if someone could argue creationism with me in a way that made any sense I would be more attuned to it, but all i ever hear is because it is... because the bible says so... because blah blah blah is all I hear. I have no contempt towards people for having faith, I think I've already said that, I said I find the whole blind faith and ignorance thing very depressing but what I'm reading on here isn't making me think in any other possible way.
4. Science is good... It is indeed but I have read the bible, was bought up a devout catholic and it contradicts nearly every major scientific discovery of importance! All this fuss about evolution, a twisting of the undeniable fact that is written not in some book thousands of years old but in the genetic code of every living thing on the planet. The Genetic engineering frankenstein foods debate, the one that makes my BLOOD BOIL, why is this unnatural? hmm? Another thing I hear all the time, where does genetic engineering fit into your biblical beliefs? Homosexuality, found amongst nearly every species animal plant (yes plant) and human, which I believe the bible is also against. Gee are you guys going to stone me for wearing garments of two different thread! I have a tasty cotton/nylon top on... or lock me away and not let me wash while I'm on my period? Incest prevelant in the bible? All well and good still?
5. I don't hate religious people, I don't hate gay people, I don't hate people of any colour denomonation or belief system. I detest however, plonkers.
6. I think you'll find the spontaneous life is more of a creationistic viewpoint than a scientific one. God said let there be man and woooooosh there he was. Evolution is a slow and painfull process that took millions of years to perfect and we are still evolving, evidence in itself that God did not make man perfect or we would have no evolutionary needs
7. I have jehovah's witnesses in the family, they are kind of hypocritical and not the bang on the door leaflet types. Of all the divinations of christianity I have looked into I have to say (and I mean no offence here) I found JW to be the most confusing of the lot! How many Jehovah's witnesses across the world are there? And what was the number of the elite again? And You embrace science and JWism? Which is a bit of a contradiction in terms when you consider the most occuring scientific progress is made within the field of medicine
8. To lead a good life is a good thing but I find it sad that people cannot just to this without having to feel like they are appeasing their god. I like to think I lead a good life and I'm not doing it to get into anyones good books
9. The bible says the bible says I wonder how many edits that thing has had over the years and I think that statement does little to help the religious guilt and paranoia so many suffer. They hate us because we're different, sheesh
10. And could it not just be that people want to live a good life because it's nicer when you're not in conflict and it's easier, why do you have to label all the good things as god made and all the bad things as man made. I think people have to have a little more faith in themselves than any supposed higher being.
Frank Black ate my Hamster
Well, I'll try to address these one by one.
1. I doubt you care what my response is to this, even though I have one. If you truly are curious, you can ask me again after this. It's to lengthy to bother typing if it will not even be read.
2. I'm not saying at all that trying to find an explanation to life is pointless. It's what we all should strive after. I enjoy what the Bible says to explain life, and I enjoy what science says explains life, because they comply, in my viewpoint.
3. If I believe in the Bible, I'm going to quote the Bible, hence 'The Bible says this, the Bible says that' comments that I make. It is somewhat 'blind faith' I suppose. I mean, that's what faith is. If I believe the parts of the Bible that have been historically proven, why should I not believe the rest of it, if I choose so? Faith is what it is, I guess. It's because of my open-mindedness that I've found my beliefs.
4. Maybe from a Catholic standpoint, science goes against everything the Bible says. Not in our understanding of the Bible. I have no problems with genetic engineering. It's not like they're creating the basic parts to life, because they never can. And if they could, well, then more power to them. Homosexuality...I view it as a genetic thing. The homosexuals I've known, have had those feelings for a long time. We're taught to love our neighbor, so how can I hate friends that have this inclination? As for experimenting frivilously, well the Bible does condemn that, but it also condemns frivilous heterosex. As for the clothing, I assume you're referring to the Israelites commandment. It's an explanation that leans toward God having a people that were set apart. However the Law Covenant has been cancelled out by the new covenant of Christianity. And incest...well the gene pool wasn't as thinned out then as it is now, but obviously it's not good now. That's just common sense.
5. Not sure what a plonker is...is that me? I assure you, I'm not trying to convert anybody. Like I've said many times...I understand why people are atheists...I used to be one. I'm glad you don't hate anyone. It's an ingrained desire in us.
6. Evolution still had to have a start also. I'm not even discounting evolution. Maybe God used that at some point...we don't know. But the fact is...no one knows for sure how life began or got to this point, religious or scientific.
7. There are about 6 million JW's. So, about one in 1000 people. We don't keep track of the elite. We have no elite clergy class. The Bible says the good news would be preached worldwide, by every member. That's what we do. Of course every denomination is going to have the people that don't try as hard. We're imperfect humans. I'm assuming your relatives were associated with JW's at one time, but are not active anymore. For instance, we have 60 people in our congregation where we live. Every one goes door to door. Whether it's 10 min. a day, or 10 hours a day...it's just doing the best you can do. I have nothing against medicine whatsoever. I've been having digestive problems, and believe me...I'm taking a ton of medicine. The only medical practice we don't agree with is blood transfusions. Most medical doctors are happy to take precautions for minimal blood loss during surgery. There are numerous blood substitutes and agents that are helpful. Transfusions aren't 100% guaranteed anyway. There's rejections and diseases. Not even the most sensitive blood screenings today can detect some diseases.
8. I agree, you can lead a good life without adhering to a Bible or religious way. However, my appreciation for God moves me to want to do what he requires.
9. Well, JW's use a translation that is as close to the oldest known manuscripts. Yes, the Bible has been altered grossly. The elimination of God's name, Jehovah, from the Bible being the biggest. I too agree that people suffer ridiculously from so-called Bible doctrines they've been taught, such as hellfire, and not knowing what happens to their dead loved ones.
10. Well, as JW's, we're neutral to political and national affairs. It is natural to desire no conflict. Man is imperfect, so the bad things do belong to him. The Bible also says "the world is lying in the power of the wicked one". If I'm going to believe in God, I believe in Satan too. So, all bad things can be attributed to him, not necessarily man. In no way am I undermining having self-confidence, or self-esteem. In fact, I've found these things necessary to my serving God.
Again, I'm not slamming anyone else's beliefs, or stating them to put other people down. I've only been going deeper into these things because I've been asked. I'm not trying to be defensive about, if it comes across that way. Because I know most atheists don't go around with the intent of attacking religion even though they don't know anything about it.
It's just that I'm living a good life. And I'm not saying everybody else isn't. It's just the way I'm choosing to live. And I'm definitely not hurting anybody by it. I know that most atheists live lives that don't hurt anybody either. It's just different paths taken, and we each feel we're on the right one.
I've found peace and happiness in my way of life, and I'm sure you have too.
This my longest post ever.
I do not have an answer to why Frank Black ate your hamster, though. The Bible fails me there.
1. I am a fsh with no i's.
2. You must be wearing Zubaz, 'cause you're daring to be different.
3. I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
Edited by - The Calistanian on 06/30/2004 13:16:06 |
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4894 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 13:36:15
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I think it was because he was hungry, and I have no problem with anyone and their beliefs I just like a little bit of debate, I am interested in what you have to say or else I wouldn't post on here at all. And no plonker was not a you reference (with the defencive again calistan!) It was me trying to say I don't care what anyone is, I have no problem with colour belief preferences and perversions etc I have no particular prejudice or dislikes towards people, except for arseholes (AGAIN NOT YOU) It annoys me (NOT YOU) when people (NOT YOU) give me just because answers to questions without explaining them thoroughly and I can see from your posts you are not a person with blind faith and idle belief so for that you have my respect. My relatives were plonkers. Are plonkers. And working in surgery I have seen some creat cell saving blood transfusion systems, saving blood lost by an individual and transferring it back and chatted to many a JW patient about it. Very interesting it was too.
Frank Black ate my Hamster
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 13:57:34
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Well, then, I'll give my answer to your item #1.
When Adam sinned, by his own free will, he went against God's instructions, and therefore forfeited everlasting life on a peaceful earth. Since then, all his offspring have been riddled with inherited sin. God backed away, which sent humans reeling into the state we're in now. However, at Genesis 3:15, the Bible's first prophecy, God made the provision for a way back into His favor. It speaks of enmity between Satan's "seed", or wicked people, and God's woman's "seed", his organization. Satan would bruise humankind "in the heel", in other words devastating them into the state we're in now, but yet not a fatal blow to the entire human race. Then Satan would be bruised "in the head", given a death-dealing blow, once and for all at God's due time.
That's a readers digest explanation.
Hehe, I'll debate religion any time, any place.
So...were you calling me a plonker again?
Just kidding
1. I am a fsh with no i's.
2. You must be wearing Zubaz, 'cause you're daring to be different.
3. I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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4894 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 14:15:01
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When I was at school my maths teacher was born again christian, a great guy I had a lot of time for him, we had some cool conversations. In my leavers book he put this...
psalms 37.4 Seek your happiness in the lord and he will give you your hearts desire
Proverbs 3:5,6 Trust in the lord with all your heart never rely on what you think you know. Remember the lord in everything you do and he will show you the right way
and finally..... Most disturbingly.....
Ecclesaistes 7:27 I found something more bitter than death - woman. The love she offers you will catch you like a trap or net and her arms around you will hold you like a chain. A man who pleases god will get away but she will catch the sinner
Frank Black ate my Hamster
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 14:26:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Tre
When I was at school my maths teacher was born again christian, a great guy I had a lot of time for him, we had some cool conversations. In my leavers book he put this...
psalms 37.4 Seek your happiness in the lord and he will give you your hearts desire
Proverbs 3:5,6 Trust in the lord with all your heart never rely on what you think you know. Remember the lord in everything you do and he will show you the right way
and finally..... Most disturbingly.....
Ecclesaistes 7:27 I found something more bitter than death - woman. The love she offers you will catch you like a trap or net and her arms around you will hold you like a chain. A man who pleases god will get away but she will catch the sinner
Frank Black ate my Hamster
Hehe...yeah, there's a lot of scriptures you can make fun of like that.
The word "woman", especially with the books Solomon had a big share in, like Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, typically means prostitute. You have to go back to the Hebrew words for that. There's always some slight variation that a straightforward English translation doesn't take into account. I'll have to check that out though.
I do like giving my wife some lines from "Song of Solomon".
Like: "You are like a lovable hind" or "your hands are like doves" or "your breasts are like a cluster of dates" (sorry, Frank didn't make that one up).
1. I am a fsh with no i's.
2. You must be wearing Zubaz, 'cause you're daring to be different.
3. I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 16:22:45
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Calistanian - re: blind faith...that *is* the problem. You're simply accepting what it says. Can you not see what's wrong with that?
Sure, some items in the Bible have been proven to be historically correct...but a bunch has also been proven otherwise.
Do you not see a problem with that?!?
Tre, a correction:
<< And don't harp on at me about brainwashing now, whats wrong with a muslim woman wanting to be modest and cover her self.>>
If i understand most Muslim countries, women are not allowed to wear whatever they like, out and about...and i think *this* is where the problem lies.
<< We are allowed to wear what we like and all too often you see young girls barely touching puberty dressing more and more like adult whores. I mean that too, look around at the children with their provocative dress and the attitude that it's ok! Is it any wonder that teenage pregnancy is not uncommon? Is it surprising that the prevelance of STD's is on the increase? Is it any wonder that paedophile cases are on the up and up? just saying...>>
Dood - this is soooo wrong.
You *cannot* put the blame on girls/women. They should be able to dress and express themselves however they like.
As i understand it, rapists, etc, think they need to be dominating. Not have sex.
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 16:31:46
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as i see it faith is blind by definition. since you can't prove the existence of god there is no alternative but take it as granted or not accepting it. practicing a religion is a whole other thing. i can't see why god should give men instructions about how they should dress or behave. if god exists i am sure that he don't gives a damn about your dress or your makeup.
 join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 16:40:14
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[quoteI do like giving my wife some lines from "Song of Solomon".
Like: "You are like a lovable hind" or "your hands are like doves" or "your breasts are like a cluster of dates" (sorry, Frank didn't make that one up).
[/quote]
How about, "you have a lovable hind".
Just making up for floop's absence.
Kind regards,
Simon
Admissions |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 16:44:24
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In this country with the muslim women I have met they chose to wear fully covered clothes, they weren't forced. There are some I'll grant you but it is more acceptable for them to make that choic for themselves when they "come of age" I also said a touch earlier in my religious rantings that I was sure this female abuse (where they have no choices at all) wasn't non existent. I have seen ignorant people down the road from me kick off at someone for dressing in the burkha (sp?) just because they did not understand.
And I'm not saying that these girls are asking for it, I'm no advocator of the it's ok to rape her because she was dressed like she wanted it. I just think it's a shame that sex is such a cheap commodity amongst youths.
Frank Black ate my Hamster
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 16:50:38
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religion should have nothing to do with sex. if the kids of today are so superficial about it, it's not because they don't get a proper religious education but because their parents are too busy with other things and don't give them some morals.
join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 16:58:13
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It was a faith and morals comparative not a religious breakdown of sex and the young, I believe in most religious history as soon as a girl came of age, well, hit puberty she was wife material... I guess I was deviating from the point, it just makes me sad. I'm no anti sex eiher but the way it is treated in the uk is to almost make it a thing to be ashamed of, or wrong, which is appealing to kids in the thrwos of teenage rebellion, which is depressing also.
Frank Black ate my Hamster
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 18:39:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
When Adam sinned, by his own free will, he went against God's instructions, and therefore forfeited everlasting life on a peaceful earth. Since then, all his offspring have been riddled with inherited sin.
This is truly demeaning and offensive. In the immortal words of Ian Anderson:
How do you dare to tell me
That I'm my father's son
When that was just an accident of birth
I'd rather look around me
Compose a better song
`Cause that's the honest measure of my worth
In your pomp and all your glory
You're a poorer man than me
As you lick the boots of death born out of fear
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betty
= Cult of Ray =
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 19:04:15
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oh how the pendulum swings!
for a while religion was the smotherer. now she's the crazy old aunt no one wants to admit to.
i enjoy the golden mean. just because people act stupidly in the name of religion does not mean that God, or the idea of God, is stupid.
why throw the baby out with the bathwater? truth isn't always literal. what are the books really saying? what truth? one, i believe, if understood would never inspire murder.
in our noncommital freakiness regarding the divine, we do a disservice to our children. grow up, people!
i love you.
warm wishes and fond regards,
betty |
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 08:36:43
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Faith is blind faith. I've said that before. Faith in creation is ultimately blind. Faith in the chance happening of life is blind. Neither circumstance do humans have the ability to re-create.
I study the Bible back to the original languages. The Bible stated the earth was a sphere long before humans could verify that knowledge. The Bible spoke of the water cycle long before humans could verify that knowledge. The Bible gave the Israelites clean living standards long before there was given any verification of germs.
When I take a walk to the park, I look at the surroundings. It's beautiful. I choose to thank God for that. When I see my beautiful daughter playing with our puppy, how happy she is, how happy I am to be able to observe and appreciate such a thing, I thank God.
There's an intangible element to our existence as human beings that cannot be attributed to a mere happening existence. The ability to appreciate beauty, art, music, the wonderment of why we are here. This quality is unique to the human species. Animals do not have these things like we do. Sure, they may have these to an extent, but whatever they have is a miniscule fraction compared to a human's ability.
1. I am a fsh with no i's.
2. You must be wearing Zubaz, 'cause you're daring to be different.
3. I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 08:42:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
There's an intangible element to our existence as human beings that cannot be attributed to a mere happening existence. The ability to appreciate beauty, art, music, the wonderment of why we are here. This quality is unique to the human species. Animals do not have these things like we do. Sure, they may have these to an extent, but whatever they have is a miniscule fraction compared to a human's ability.
Calistanian, how do you KNOW that?
Why must assumptions about animals be made to justify humans (animals too) having a higher place in the order of things?
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 08:57:26
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The fact that animals don't have a rational thought is very obvious - they don't have a rational language or logos. They only respond to a number of stimuli by a number of reactions. I already discussed this with Dave, and as I said before, this doesn't mean they are automates - animals are capable of sensitivity. They can feel. Being a rational being doesn't mean our place is higher, though. It does make us morally responsible.
But come on, apl, do you really think that the fact that animals cannot appreciate art is an assumption? I remember my Philosophy professor saying to us "each day, my dog takes his glasses and reads Le Monde".
Mun Chien, everything has to do with sex. |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 08:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
The Bible gave the Israelites clean living standards long before there was given any verification of germs.
Trial and error. Eat this and you die. Eat that and you don't. Very effective. |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 09:04:30
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| I think that people who violently attack religions are as narrow-minded as the Inquisition. So many things, so many human thoughts have been built on religions - you cannot be a humanist, you cannot escape nihilism, if you constantly attack everything that has to do with religion. |
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 09:07:38
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quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
There's an intangible element to our existence as human beings that cannot be attributed to a mere happening existence. The ability to appreciate beauty, art, music, the wonderment of why we are here. This quality is unique to the human species. Animals do not have these things like we do. Sure, they may have these to an extent, but whatever they have is a miniscule fraction compared to a human's ability.
Calistanian, how do you KNOW that?
Why must assumptions about animals be made to justify humans (animals too) having a higher place in the order of things?
I guess maybe the fact that over 1000's of years they haven't been able to TELL us that, might be a clue. I would say it's a pretty good assumption.
Besides, I didn't say they DON'T have those capacities.
1. I am a fsh with no i's.
2. You must be wearing Zubaz, 'cause you're daring to be different.
3. I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 09:09:33
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quote:
Originally posted by fudd
quote:
Originally posted by The Calistanian
When Adam sinned, by his own free will, he went against God's instructions, and therefore forfeited everlasting life on a peaceful earth. Since then, all his offspring have been riddled with inherited sin.
This is truly demeaning and offensive.
Haha...I guess I would find the fact that my ancestors would range from nothing to amoebas to chimps to be far more degrading, demeaning, and offensive.
1. I am a fsh with no i's.
2. You must be wearing Zubaz, 'cause you're daring to be different.
3. I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 09:22:45
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Monsieur, I believe the typical scientific approach to the possibility of animals having a thinking mind is myopic. The rational that is used to argue that animals do not rationalize is inherently flawed. Like Russel and Whitehead with Principia Mathematica trying to create a universe of logic which eludes all paradox. You are using a system of thought which does not include room for a concept outside of itself. You are expecting them to "appreciate" just as you "appreciate". I would just like to humbly posit that that there is a larger, multi-lingual dictionary, most of which we do not even have the faculties (yet) to read. I do think that animals quite possibly DO have self-awareness. But it's irrational to expect that they would have the same type of awareness.
It's like expecting our first "intelligent" extra-terrestrial acquaintances to be humanoid, and to have a way of communicating and thinking that is at all recognizeable within our realm of understanding.
As far as the Bible and its teachings of common sense, well, tens of thousands of years ago people were capable of keeping themselves from death most of the time. White willow bark didn't drop out of the sky with a script and indications from God attached to it. Trial and error is what keeps all living things moving forward. Observe/sense your environment, and respond accordingly with an intelligent process.
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 09:47:35
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What you are saying right now is that there is a language animals have that we are not able to understand. This is, of course, not impossible, and it can also be applied to objects. I have a glass of beer in front of me right now, and noone can prove me that it is not aware of its being a glass of (tasty) beer. But as you very well pointed out, I am using a system of thought which, as Popper pointed out, doesn't include room for a concept from outside. In fact, its reality of being a glass of beer is MY relity, and it is perhaps something else. Perhaps a glass of beer doesn't exist. Wittgenstein attended a Russel's class and refused to admit that there were no rhinoceros in the classroom.
But we live in the world where a glass of beer is a glass of beer. It could be something else somewhere else. But we are here - Heidegger calls it 'da sein'. Animals may have a rational language somewhere else, but not where we are.
We can only use the words of our own dictionary. The existence of a larger dictionary would mean that things that are not, here, are, somewhere else - as there will always be somewhere else from here, for each here, that dictionary would include everything that is and that isn-t.
To sum this up, perhaps animals are self-aware somewhere else, but we are here. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 10:01:47
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Can we not use the concept of same-time wave and particle where we are here? We have been doing that for years, ever since we were aware of the concept. Other dimesions (mostly incomprehensible to the general way of thinking) work and effect where we are, and we use them within scientific parameters to shape our own rational and physical or 4-D world.
Most people have a very hard time understanding String Theory within the realm of their own rationale, but it arguably effects all that we know, and comprises the very fabric of the universe. I am not even saying that animals communicate or are self-aware in another plane - I am suggesting that they do have self-awareness within our context, we just haven't yet developed a means of understanding them -we need to add more words to the book, like we have many times over for other things.
This may or may not be relevant to the topic, but I would be happy to spend more time discussing it in this or another thread later. I need to get to work!
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Edited by - apl4eris on 07/02/2004 10:05:06 |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 10:04:25
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| And I have to go to the beach. |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 11:30:12
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I'd say we're all our own gods since we all have the fantastic power to change old things, to start new things, to create our life, our world, well, ourselves.
So the real question is, who gave us this power? God? Cosmic energy? Frank Black? Dave Noisy? Ohio Apl? GW Bush? One of them anyway...
"Join the Friends of FB.net / and win your weight in cereals"  |
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Religion is Scary
