| Author |
 Topic  |
|
GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
 Posted - 02/28/2004 : 10:24:59
|
SO, was having this discussion with some members off here, and decided to open it upto the lot of you..
We were talking about The Beatles and whether a very influential and influesntial band (ever)...or not...
Also in discussion was whether Frank be a better song writer than Lennon/McCartney...
Also whether The beatles were more deseerving of their hype than Nirvana or bands like that?
I thinkit is all relative to the person personally..
Discuss
Boys go to Jupiter, Get more stupider,
Girls go to Mars, Become rock stars
Wanna fuck and fight in the basement? |
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 10:27:11
|
THEY SUCK
were you talking to massif snake? |
 |
|
|
GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 10:46:20
|
I was indeed.
I think they suck is a bit harsh. VERY harsh!
But then i said all opinons are relative..so...er..
Boys go to Jupiter, Get more stupider,
Girls go to Mars, Become rock stars
Wanna fuck and fight in the basement? |
|
|
|
Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 11:09:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by GypsyDeath
But then i said all opinons are relative..so...er..
Problem is, you can say this to everybody. Having started in such an apologetic tone, you've conveniently ruled out debate, thereby condemning this thread to stagnation and premature archival.
What were you thinking? Forward planning required!
 "I joined the Cult Of Boni/Get Off My Trolley!" |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 11:10:16
|
nah, it is a bit harsh... but...
i've listened to sgt. peppers, revolver and the white album, and i think they're pretty forgetable and bland, except a couple of songs, but i wouldn't call those great either.
i don't think they are as special or as influential as so many people make out, and no more important than any other popular bands and idols of any other time.
i think frank is a better song writer, simply because I like his songs a lot more than i do the beatles...
|
|
|
|
VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 11:56:41
|
Opinions on whether one band is better than another are always relative, and if your opinion is that the Beatles weren't that great, that's fine. But it would be difficult to deny the Beatles' influence on modern music, or the fact that they sold so many records, or the large amount of people who consider them to be the greatest band ever.
Join the Culf of Buttoms / Just in time for the Poxies reunion! |
|
|
|
offerw
* Dog in the Sand *
South Africa
1264 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 12:08:41
|
| If I had to add up all my favourite Frank Black/ Pixies songs and add up all the great Beatles songs then Frank will easily win by 50 against 20 songs. One cannot discount the influence the Beatles had though. I like the Velvets a lot more than the Beatles. Now if you had to add up all the great Lou Reed songs!!!!!! Watch out Frank! |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 12:15:44
|
a large amount of people believe in jesus christ. i call them stupid.
and yeah, the velvet underground are much better than the beatles. |
|
|
|
massif snake
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
282 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 12:21:12
|
personally i believe that the ebatles were so influential because they were constantly evolving throughout their career- from 50's rock n roll knock-offs to....the best band ever?
have sex with the nuns at my school. |
|
|
|
massif snake
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
282 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 12:21:52
|
steve ur arguments r largely irrelevant, their influence cannot be denied.
have sex with the nuns at my school. |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 12:25:15
|
i don't deny many people find their music influential. do you deny that most music sucks?
|
|
|
|
massif snake
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
282 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 12:33:21
|
ours definitely does
have sex with the nuns at my school. |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 12:39:42
|
but seriously, the beatles aren't that brilliant. they started off as just bad pop music, and later progressed and became "experimental" whereas in actually fact they were just recycling already present ideas and supplying them to the mainstream.
It's basically the fact they were popular that you think they're great isn't it, oli? You haven't even heard anything by the velvet underground, probably because they not as popular, yet they are blatantly better and probably just as influential.
I can't wait till everyone who lived during the beatles era dies, because half of their fanbase is just nostaligc wankers. It's like when they do top 100 movies, star wars always comes first because most of the people doing the voting were kids when it came out. They don't realise it's actually not that good of a film. And then later generations reckon that it's cool to like these once popular bands/films, like you oli. You won't listen to anything that doesn't have mega distortion, yet the beatles had none of that. Are you sure you even like the beatles?
Loads of anti-pop people are slating pop music, usually with one reason: "they didn't write the songs themselves!"
But someone did, didn't they? What makes it any worse than the beatles writing cheesy love songs, the only difference being they are performing it themselves? A lot of people are dismissing truely great pop songs because of this stupid rock-boy mentality.
|
|
|
|
VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 13:53:46
|
quote:
a large amount of people believe in jesus christ. i call them stupid.
So anyone who follows a belief system that you don't personally agree with is, by your definition, stupid?
quote:
i don't deny many people find their music influential. do you deny that most music sucks?
As I was trying to get at in my earlier post, there are different ways of defining greatness. Is the greatest band the one that has sold the most albums? The one that has had the most profound influence on music in general? The one with the most technical proficiency? Or just the one that you, personally, like the best? This is why I think any argument calling a certain band "the best" or "the greatest" or "better than Band X" doesn't have much substance unless your qualifications for "good" and "great" are defined.
Join the Culf of Buttoms / Just in time for the Poxies reunion! |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 15:20:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
So anyone who follows a belief system that you don't personally agree with is, by your definition, stupid?
My point was more that just because many people believe it, it doesn't mean it's true.
quote:
As I was trying to get at in my earlier post, there are different ways of defining greatness. Is the greatest band the one that has sold the most albums? The one that has had the most profound influence on music in general? The one with the most technical proficiency? Or just the one that you, personally, like the best? This is why I think any argument calling a certain band "the best" or "the greatest" or "better than Band X" doesn't have much substance unless your qualifications for "good" and "great" are defined.
This wasn't directed at you and I have no idea how this relates to it.
 I joined the Cult of Pi / Because it's cool |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 02/28/2004 15:21:32 |
|
|
|
VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 15:55:13
|
I guess it doesn't relate to your post in particular, PixieSteve. It was just a point I wanted to make, and I couldn't find a better jumping off place for it.
Join the Culf of Buttoms / It's the Alerican way. |
|
|
|
GoddessTheory
= Cult of Ray =
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 16:41:03
|
| I am glad I'm not the kind of person who disagrees just because I think it makes me different. That's moronic and ignorant. |
|
|
|
GoddessTheory
= Cult of Ray =
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 16:43:03
|
I am also glad I am not a young insolent punk ass who says people who like Jesus and the Beatles are stupid.
That would be something someone would say just to start a fight.
Boy I am so glad there are no people like that here. |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 16:59:11
|
That wasn't really my point, if you were to listen to me.
I don't think people who like the Beatles are stupid, I even respect the Beatles (it's not like I think they've made music WORSE, I just don't think they're as great as so many people think)
OK, although I do think christians are idiots on many levels, like I've said before it wasn't really the point I was trying to make. It was to make people think. Not everything popular is good (I thought you people would be the first to say that), yet that seemed be part of your arguments for the beatles being good. That everyone liked them, so they must have been good. I'm afraid I'm still allowed to have my own opinion, no matter how many people believe something.
I do not disagree (with the idea that the beatles are good, i think that's what you meant) just because I think it makes me different. I don't claim to be anything other than a conformist in most areas. It's just that I don't actually like the Beatles. Is it really that hard to believe? |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 02/28/2004 17:01:01 |
|
|
|
Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =
USA
899 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 17:25:44
|
People who don't love Jesus should be shot... because the Bible says so. ;)
But seriously, the Beatles are just one of those bands that are incredibly overrated by their fans (Zeppelin is another). I doubt that very many of the music-listening kids today really care about the Beatles any more than they care about the Pixies or Radiohead. In twenty years, I reckon that albums by the latter bands will be ranked much higher on "greatest of all time" album lists.
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies *snort* SCREEEEEECH! *flap flap flap* |
|
|
|
El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 17:37:51
|
It's getting harder and harder today for people to understand why The Beatles get the praise they do...it'd make more sense if you dug deeper than just their music and look at the impact that they had on so many levels, not only in music but in pop culture in general. No band since Nirvana (I suppose this could be arguable, but this is the way I see it) has had that impact...the past 13 years of music have been utter shit, and I suppose that's more difficult to grasp the younger people get, because they haven't seen it for themself. You can call The Beatles, Nirvana, et. al. shit as much as you want...great, that's you're opinion, you're hip now for going against the grain, but there's no way you can deny the impact these sort of bands have had on the world as a whole.
 "Join the Cult of Brit / And let your oral hygiene go out the window." |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 18:17:45
|
| i agree with you there el barto. although i wish people would stop suggesting i am only not liking the beatles to be hip and cool. |
|
|
|
Kirk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
633 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 20:34:56
|
The Beatles were great because they remained the friendly/catchy melodies throughout the genre progression.
Play psychedelic rock with a dumb melody and you have a song similar to some shitty band like the velvet underground. Man, that guy can't sing in-tune!
              ...though he loved to rock and roll... |
|
|
|
ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 21:07:41
|
I used to like the Beatles when I was 9, then I started to be 13 and I thought it was uncool to like the bands my dad did so I went thru a phase where I didn't like the Beatles (and Simon and Garfunkel). Then when I was 17 I started listening to the Beatles again and I liked them.
 Join the Devil's Workshop / Looking for idle hands to work second shift |
|
|
|
TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2004 : 21:29:31
|
Frank Black isn't nearly as gifted a songwriter as John Lennon, though Frank is incredibly talented. Plenty of his material surpasses McCartney's (primarily McCartney's awful solo career, of which the highlights are few and far between). I'm not certain which of the two is Frank's favorite, but there are certainly heavy traces of both in his songwriting. For the detractors of The Beatles, or at least those who believe they are highly overrated, all I can say is that you obviously didn't find their music at the right time in your life, because I feel that anyone who likes the music of Frank Black so much had it in them to enjoy the music of the Beatles just as much at one time, but you just probably didn't hear enough of their music at the time it would have really spoke to you. Frank's music wouldn't exist if it weren't for EVERY Beatles song speaking to him, or at least he would not have written many of the songs he's written, if any. He has said something along the lines of there being a special place in his heart for every Beatles song, yes, every song. Even big fans of The Beatles often dislike the early material, the pre-Rubber Soul/Revolver era. I like it all. It's all important.
"You're muckin' with a G here!" |
Edited by - TarTar on 02/29/2004 11:14:11 |
|
|
|
misleadtheworld
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1222 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 06:33:35
|
I think frank black is better than lennon or mcCartney. maybe i can sorta nearly kinda 'relate' to frank more, considering the beatles' music is coming up for half a century old now, if you know what i mean. that might have something to do with it. im sure in 20 years, some other prolific songwriter will have a forum debating this about nirvana, or in fact, frank.
i do like the beatles. but im not as keen on the early stuff. revolver, help, and the white album are what i would choose if i had to. i think lennon was a very clever man, not just musically. as like cobain, they both knew how and what to do to play and get attention from the masses, which is also probably why they are regarded so highly today.
on a more personal note, i think paul mccartney is an arse.
Join my Cult of ~P~ / I have a logo and everything.... |
|
|
|
GoddessTheory
= Cult of Ray =
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 08:23:02
|
Wow, Paul feels the same way about you though, he told me.
El Barto had it right when he talked about the impact they had culturally. It's pointless and does nothing to say that FB is a better writer than L/M. First of all...in who's opinion? He may be a better writer. Can you show me that scale, you know, the GOOD BETTER BEST Writer's scale.
I can't believe this is even a real discussion. Whatever either side says the other side will say they're right so, you know what, have fun with this one. |
|
|
|
Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 08:43:00
|
Don't know if anyone else remembers this but for a few years until I was 12-13 (1991-2) the Beatles were seriously out of vogue and their CD's were available on mid-price. Then the Anthology came out a while later and now the White Album is €45.
--
"You one of those right-wing nut outfits?" inquired the diplomatic Metzger.
Fallopian twinkled. "They accuse us of being paranoids."
"They?" inquired Metzger, twinkling also.
"Us?" asked Oedipa.
|
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 09:43:10
|
| wait, obviously this kind of stuff is down to opinions. but just stating that and thinking that should be the end of a debate is pretty useless, otherwise what do you think the point of having an opinion is? |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 02/29/2004 09:55:20 |
|
|
|
misleadtheworld
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1222 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 10:28:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by GoddessTheory
Wow, Paul feels the same way about you though, he told me.
but seriously. i like his beatles music, but he doesnt seem to be that much of a nice guy.
saying that, i have never met him, and don't know him, so, you know....is he a nice guy?
quote:
Originally posted by GoddessTheory
El Barto had it right when he talked about the impact they had culturally. It's pointless and does nothing to say that FB is a better writer than L/M. First of all...in who's opinion? He may be a better writer. Can you show me that scale, you know, the GOOD BETTER BEST Writer's scale.
i wouldn't say it's pointless, it was the question posed above after all. and yes, of course it is all opinion. its not black and white. i, who lives in the age of frank black and not the beatles, thinks frank black is better.
quote:
Originally posted by GoddessTheory
I can't believe this is even a real discussion. Whatever either side says the other side will say they're right so, you know what, have fun with this one.
you know, this is quite tedious actually, especially now the discussion is being discussed 
Join my Cult of ~P~ / I have a logo and everything.... |
|
|
|
ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 10:31:51
|
It's an interesting topic. I mean... it's the Beatles.
I do hate the song "Yellow Submarine."
Basically I'd be happy with about 5 Beatles albums in my collection, but if I only had 5 Frank Black albums my record collection would be seriously lacking.
I respect the Beatles because it's hard to find a song of theirs that is just a rehash of another one of their songs. I think all their songs have something unique about them. I don't think I've ever thought "Man, this Beatles song sounds just like that other Beatles song."
Join the Devil's Workshop / Looking for idle hands to work second shift |
|
|
|
VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 11:15:54
|
quote:
People who don't love Jesus should be shot... because the Bible says so. ;)
The Bible mentions projectile weapons?
Join the Culf of Buttoms / It's the Alerican way. |
|
|
|
TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 11:19:34
|
Yes, it's high time we stopped worrying about the fact that an opinion of one person does not speak for the entire world. We are intelligent people here, aren't we? We don't need to reiterate this every other post.
That said, no one is entitled to their own opinion when it comes to the Beatles. If you don't find their music among the most amazing and fascinating songs you've ever heard, you obviously haven't lived your life properly and you are wrong. 
"You're muckin' with a G here!" |
Edited by - TarTar on 02/29/2004 11:21:36 |
|
|
|
Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 12:35:41
|
I don't rate any of The Beatles albums that much as a whole. However they wrote at least 50 great songs that I can think of, it's just that they wrote a lot of shit too and their albums tended to contain mixture of the two IMO. I don't listen to them much 'cos I am not too keen on their performace a lot of the time. Basically if the Pixies performed their songs then they would be even better!!! 
I don't think anyone who truly loves music can fail to find at least a few Beatles songs that they like!!!
I do feel the Velvet Underground are overrated though and are often name-dropped by people just to appear cool!!!
Led Zeppelin were also overrated IMO, fantastic musicians and performers, but I think most of their songs were crap!!!
Just my two-penneth!!!
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
Edited by - Homers_pet_monkey on 02/29/2004 12:39:44 |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 12:41:49
|
| oh yes, don't get me started on led zeppelin. whoever calls stairway to heaven to greatest song of all time... I KEEL YOU! |
|
|
|
TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 12:50:24
|
I respect that you dislike the Beatles...but atleast give Abbey Road a listen all of the way through. I think you'll appreciate tracks 9 to 16..the near transition is awe-inspiring. Also..in Maxwell's Silver Hammer Paul chuckles because John mooned him, hahaha. If you still don't like it..well..your loss, haha. I understand, though...People always tell me "Oh you should give rap a try. blablabla." Okay..well I have. And I just hate it. They tell me it's my loss and tell them "fuck you", hahaha.
 "Join the Cult of Gunn / And Then You'll Be Destined to be a Rock and Roll Star of Epical Proportions!" |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Relative Opinions...(The Beatles and stuff)
