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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1019 Posts |
 Posted - 10/03/2022 : 13:44:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
Let’s talk about how well produced Get Simulated is.
Besides the fact that it sounds like one of your favorite Frank Black songs, it’s the opposite of brick walled, am I right?
We complained so much about the bzzzzzxzzzx in so many of the 2.0 songs, it’s so good to hear a FBF song you can hear.
One of the gems for sure
Yes - I very much enjoy how warm and restrained it is. No need to make everything climax. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2022 : 14:30:00
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| I'm in the "skipping around" stage with "Doggerel" and "Get Simulated" is one I NEVER skip. It's an infectious groove that feels cool all around. |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
961 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2022 : 14:32:06
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I have now listened to Doggeral 3 or 4 times! I have many thoughts...but I'm also still processing everything.
Nomatterday: This surprised me as it seems like a deliberate effort to get that classic Pixies sound and songwriting style, which I was under the impression was not exactly a goal for this record based on all those interviews. It's a great start to the album. I still think it could use a little more weirdness (whether rhythmically or lyrically or whatever), as long as they're doing something like this anyway. But overall this got me enthusiastic about where things were going.
Vault of Heaven: It's fair to say this has grown on me since the very bad first impression I had. However it still just doesn't excite me much. It may be from hearing it too many times before the album release. It's so hard to explain my feelings about this sort of song...it's not like I dislike it. It just maybe doesn't have a lot of replay value to me, which is how I feel about most of BTE. "Solid but not dying to put it on again."
Dregs of the Wine: I like this one a lot, again, surprised to hear a song that would actually fit in during a live show with the classic songs, or at least not be so jarringly plain or straight as Vault of Heaven or a few others here. This is very unpredictable, interesting, rocking, fun, I really enjoy each "piece" of the song very much...I'm also still processing the fact that Joey wrote the music for this one.
Haunted House: This is such a weird one. It's incredibly childlike and kind of naive and silly? I don't know if I like it or not, it's not at all what I was expecting. This sounds like it should be on a children's album or Goosebumps soundtrack. It also has a very Catholics feel at times. The chorus doesn't quite work for me...it feels like a melody you've heard many times before, but I like the various riffs and ideas here and there.
One thing, and this applies to most songs: I just think things rock out too much. A weird complaint, but it just feels like Dalgety is sitting there going "ok, now here's where the big rock chords come in." Very formulaic, expected. Haunted House and the next track and the final track should have restrained themselves and lived in that vibe more, rather than being like OK LOUD GUITARS NOW!! It makes every song kind of feel the same, like you know where they are all going.
Get Simulated: This is my favorite at the moment. A song that evokes the best and weirdest of Frank Black (or possibly Black Francis) solo work. This song is exactly what I meant in a different thread on the forum where I ranted about Pixies albums needing more weird throwaway songs and not just Dalgety trying to make a bunch of huge rock smash singles or ballads. This one reminds me of the BTE demos and the sort of casual unrestrained hangout vibe of them that I love so much. First song to get in my head.
The Lord Has Come Back Today: When I watched the live version on YouTube I was like oh boy, this really doesn't gel with the Pixies live show. On the album it's a pleasant enough song, kind of like Ready For Love. But I can't help wondering why Dalgety chose this above what we can probably all assume were far more interesting songs. As of now this just feels forgettable to me and very un-Pixies like. It kind of reminds me of George Harrison or something.
Thunder & Lightning: This one is like a better version of Lord Has Come Back Today. I like the vibe of this, and it's VERY Catholics and reminds me of the vibe I want when I'm in the mood for putting on a Catholics album. Country and folky and kind of soothing but also a bit of darkness. I'm not sure the lyrics work for me though, at least what I've noticed so far. It also feels like there's no chorus. "You count the..." part seems like a prechorus and then it doesn't happen.
There’s a Moon On: I still heavily dislike the song. In the context of the album it's musically somewhat refreshing but it's still obviously the worst song on the album and the worst lyrics of Frank's entire songwriting career. I wish I can understand what he was going for here. Out of respect and consistency I don't skip songs for the first few weeks of checking out a band's new album but this one will be skippable pretty soon. I really don't know what Dalgety was thinking picking this one. I don't know what anyone was thinking. Like the band that made Break My Body or Gouge Away or other intense awesome scary gothic stuff, thinking this song works on any level close to that...I don't understand.
Pagan Man: Similar to Haunted House, this is kind of childlike and cute. I do enjoy it but I'm also wondering how this got picked above other things. It does have a nice melody and feel but it kind of sounds like an unfinished Catholics demo that was rejected or something to me. I don't know...
Who’s More Sorry Now?: The second song that got in my head. This one snuck up on me. It's very simple but something about it just sucked me in. I think I like it quite a bit. I'm still finding it odd many of these even are Pixies songs, especially with NoMatterDay and Dregs kind of fooling me into thinking we're getting a weirder, more punky album.
You’re Such a Sadducee: Ok this sounds exactly like a Black Francis solo song...what is it (looks forever)...Virginia Reel. Yes. Anyway...it's fun...it's not jumping out at me at the moment apart from me obsessing over what song it sounded like. But it's good for the album to pick up the tempo a bit towards the end. This is the god damn Pixies after all.
Doggerel: This sounds like REM to me. Anyway...I like this a lot...but my "note" would be the funky jam part should be longer...and should come back and stick around...make the song 8 minutes if you have to...that's a good groove man. It feels like they move on from it so fast and then it's back to those big Dalgety power chords again and just...I think this could have been an opportunity for something more different than that. But I think I like the song anyway well enough. I do think the chorus or rocking part is just the least interesting thing. I feel like this had potential for something more...
My one big wish is that there were more songs. I think the 12 song thing is also Dalgety and it's very annoying with an artist as prolific and consistently solid as Frank. The album is over incredibly fast. Why not like, 15 songs? I just think their new albums need to stretch out and get a little weird and explore some more. |
Edited by - Troubles A Foot on 10/03/2022 14:52:37 |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
961 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2022 : 14:38:03
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quote:
Originally posted by natenate101
Get Simulated (never really takes off,
See, this is fascinating, as it is the opposite point I was making. It feels like Dalgety forces every song to "take off" with these big rock guitars rather than let the song kind of be itself? The reason I like Get Simulated so much is that its its own universe of a song and doesn't feel as beholden to "rules" like that (even though it does rock out a bit more too), which to me is what the Pixies is all about.
quote:
I really like this song after a few listens, doesn't try too hard like others on the album, no big solo or boring bridge or unending outro
EXACTLY. |
Edited by - Troubles A Foot on 10/03/2022 14:43:55 |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1019 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2022 : 14:57:02
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| Great review Trouble! I completely agree with your points re: Haunted House and Doggerel. |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2022 : 14:57:37
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Good review Trouble. Although I don’t hear a speck of Virginia Reel in Sadduce. Sure that’s the one you’re thinking of? Also, I agree with your take on Get Simulated.
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings. |
Edited by - johnnyribcage on 10/03/2022 15:05:15 |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
961 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2022 : 15:04:46
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
Good review Trouble. Although I don’t hear a speck of Virginia Reel in Sadduce. Sure that’s the one you’re thinking of?
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.
Yeah. Similar melody and rhythm. You're such a sadducee/With your instant evening meal. On specifically listening now it's a bit more different than it was the way it clicked in my head, but until a better candidate comes up that must be the one I was thinking of...
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natenate101
= Cult of Ray =
USA
892 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2022 : 16:23:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
quote:
Originally posted by natenate101
Get Simulated (never really takes off,
See, this is fascinating, as it is the opposite point I was making. It feels like Dalgety forces every song to "take off" with these big rock guitars rather than let the song kind of be itself? The reason I like Get Simulated so much is that its its own universe of a song and doesn't feel as beholden to "rules" like that (even though it does rock out a bit more too), which to me is what the Pixies is all about.
quote:
I really like this song after a few listens, doesn't try too hard like others on the album, no big solo or boring bridge or unending outro
EXACTLY.
To clarify, I didn’t mean that it never gets loud or rocking, just that dynamically it never does enough to really elevate it for me above a regular ass FB song. I still feel the same. Feel that way about many of these songs. Too pleasant, too straightforward, too much FB vs BF. I realize I probably am not as big a fan of FB as many of you on here, I really only checked all his solo albums because I was always looking for small signs of the Pixies and BF in each release. That’s why I’m a bit flabbergasted by the largely glowing responses with regards to this album, but I guess I shouldn’t as many really love the FB&C type stuff which never strongly resonated for me. I do much prefer the punky, faster, quirkier songs from The Man.
Nomatterday is the crown jewel of this album, no doubt about that.
Vault has grown on me a bit but not that much, haha.
Dregs is solid. Gives me good feelings as a listener.
Haunted House - kinda childish as mentioned above. I enjoy the bass a lot. Chorus gives me Another Toe vibes. Like the outro music and Paz’ vocals. Chorus is dumb.
Get Simulated, I explained above. Really FB stuff to me.
Lord…just no. So boring. Chorus is terrible.
T&L - snakes vibe on the intro. What band is this? Doesn’t sound like Pixies to me. Best part is the music and Spanish counting. Joey’s simply guitar after that is ok. But damn so elementary.
Moon - I like it more than most because it is energy and the backing vocals/effects on the chorus are catchy to me.
Pagan Man - another FB song. Does nothing interesting info musically at all. The whistling? Holy fuck.
Who’s more Sorry - has a bit more of a vibe I can get into. The lyrics are weak as is the chorus. So repetitive and one-note. “I found a mannequin, inside a plastic bin” then chorus again??? Come on BF. No one tells him to give the words another pass anymore?
Sadducee - tempo seems fine, it doesn’t change around enough and the lyrics are cringe to me. “You’re such economy, like Deuteronomy”? That ain’t BF being weird and oddball, that’s just kinda lazy. Outro could be good but it just repeats and I know it’s reaching for some buildup and climax but the words don’t inspire any feelings in me and neither do Dave’s bland ass drumming. I don’t know, it just doesn’t do much for me. Seems to work for others. Paz sounds ok.
Doggerel - this one is unique, and although it doesn’t work for me I can see how he is trying something different vocally. Way too repetitive with the chorus, and really could have a few more twists and turns.
I’m laying low in this thread because I don’t want to be a bummer. I’m just not seeing or hearing what many others seem to be hearing. It’s a decent enough listen, but I just want and expect more. I just feel like BF can do so much, so much better on the songwriting front. And once I heard some songs meant for a country album were plucked for this effort, I kinda knew it wouldn’t be my bag.
But hey, the first half of Nomatterday gives me hope. That songs is a really fun listen. I love it.
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1019 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2022 : 17:42:58
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That makes sense nate - the album does lean more heavily towards FB than BF. While I also generally prefer Charles's BF side, and while it did take me a few listens to get into it, I do have to say that I after my fourth listen - hot damn, I think this is a fantastic record. I can understand critiques that it is too pleasant, but at the same time I simply really enjoy it.
I think it has a shot of joining the ranks of Dog in the Sand, Bluefinger, and Beneath the Eyrie, as being in the top tier of his LPs from the last 25 years.
I also want to apologize for being too critical of Tom in this thread. At the end of the day, while I can nit-pick various choices, he's produced two excellent records out of Charles in the last few years. |
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natenate101
= Cult of Ray =
USA
892 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2022 : 19:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Brank_Flack
That makes sense nate - the album does lean more heavily towards FB than BF. While I also generally prefer Charles's BF side, and while it did take me a few listens to get into it, I do have to say that I after my fourth listen - hot damn, I think this is a fantastic record. I can understand critiques that it is too pleasant, but at the same time I simply really enjoy it.
I think it has a shot of joining the ranks of Dog in the Sand, Bluefinger, and Beneath the Eyrie, as being in the top tier of his LPs from the last 25 years.
I also want to apologize for being too critical of Tom in this thread. At the end of the day, while I can nit-pick various choices, he's produced two excellent records out of Charles in the last few years.
I respect this and I’m glad you like it. As for Tom, I want another producer not because of his sonic choices, I’m not Audiofile and wouldn’t be able to tell the differences unless someone else like Albini was involved that had a complete different style. I want a new producer because it seems like Tom has too much sway within the group for me, and his tastes don’t match up with what I’d like to see from Pixies.
Regarding BF vs FB, if this album was a follow up to Bluefinger I think I’d receive it much better. Maybe I also need to adopt the view other have already, that Pixies 2.0 is more like BF & friends and it’ll change my expectations and level of criticism. This is very much like Bluefinger or Non-Stop Erotic. Some great songs, some decent songs, some bad songs. It fits. |
Edited by - natenate101 on 10/03/2022 19:18:27 |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
961 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2022 : 20:09:35
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| Couldn't disagree more that this is very much like Bluefinger... |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2022 : 23:05:35
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I don’t see it as like Bluefinger, if you mean sonically, structurally similar, performance wise, etc or really like much else except some other 2.0. I probably could easily see songs like Test Pilot, Lolita, or a couple others on Doggerel though. But they’d be more produced and perfected.
If it’s simply a personal ratio of good to not so good songs, that’s a tough metric to go by since we’re all gonna have completely different opinions there. But I do see it as probably the best SINCE Bluefinger. And to be clear, I put Bluefinger in the absolute top tier of Charles’ work. I guess that’s the same thing as tallying subjective good songs, but it’s all just opinion anyway.
I can see how someone who isn’t as much a fan of all the non-Pixies output wouldn’t care for it as much. But I don’t really think it’s that either (a FBF album). It’s something else. Hard to compare it, and hard to compare a lot of his separate albums. It’s the best version yet of whatever new Pixies music is, imo. He hasn’t done that early manic punk thing in ages, and certainly not consistently throughout a whole album in like 30+ years, and that’s just not coming back.
And I’m not sure how someone pushing 60 could come up with something like that anyway and have it seem genuine. I don’t think it’s possible. Bob Dylan couldn’t write and perform an album that captures the same spirit and vibe of say Blonde on Blonde now. Paul McCartney could never do something that recreates the magic of Ram again even if he tried. Same with early Pixies. That party is over, but thankfully 1) we still have the old records to listen to whenever and 2) there’s a new party going on that’s pretty damn fun and satisfying too, so I’m trying to live in the now and enjoy it for what it is.
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings. |
Edited by - johnnyribcage on 10/03/2022 23:15:45 |
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natenate101
= Cult of Ray =
USA
892 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 00:05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
I don’t see it as like Bluefinger, if you mean sonically, structurally similar, performance wise, etc or really like much else except some other 2.0. I probably could easily see songs like Test Pilot, Lolita, or a couple others on Doggerel though. But they’d be more produced and perfected.
If it’s simply a personal ratio of good to not so good songs, that’s a tough metric to go by since we’re all gonna have completely different opinions there. But I do see it as probably the best SINCE Bluefinger. And to be clear, I put Bluefinger in the absolute top tier of Charles’ work. I guess that’s the same thing as tallying subjective good songs, but it’s all just opinion anyway.
I can see how someone who isn’t as much a fan of all the non-Pixies output wouldn’t care for it as much. But I don’t really think it’s that either (a FBF album). It’s something else. Hard to compare it, and hard to compare a lot of his separate albums. It’s the best version yet of whatever new Pixies music is, imo. He hasn’t done that early manic punk thing in ages, and certainly not consistently throughout a whole album in like 30+ years, and that’s just not coming back.
And I’m not sure how someone pushing 60 could come up with something like that anyway and have it seem genuine. I don’t think it’s possible. Bob Dylan couldn’t write and perform an album that captures the same spirit and vibe of say Blonde on Blonde now. Paul McCartney could never do something that recreates the magic of Ram again even if he tried. Same with early Pixies. That party is over, but thankfully 1) we still have the old records to listen to whenever and 2) there’s a new party going on that’s pretty damn fun and satisfying too, so I’m trying to live in the now and enjoy it for what it is.
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.
I had a long reply typed up but it wouldn’t allow me to post and it got deleted.
Maybe because you were editing your post that I quoted?
Anyway, I was gonna basically say my Bluefinger comp was indeed based on the ratio of songs I like (1/3rd really like, 1/3rd enjoy enough, 1/3rd can’t get into at all), and various styles BF utilizes. I think Bluefinger is the better album, just to be clear. A better comp for me and my feeling towards Doggerel is probably Non-Stop or HC, in hindsight. HC has some songs I really like, but too many that I feel are kinda lame and very vanilla (Bel Esprit, Might as Well be gone, All I think about now).
Not all 2.0 songs I like are super punky and fast paced. But they do all have an energy or unique bits to them that make them stand up to repeat listening. What Goes Boom (some of favorite 2.0 lyrics), Indie Cindy, Oona, Head Carrier (could’ve been much better though, liked the live version), Um Chagga Lagga (why don’t they play this live?), Plaster of Paris, All The Saints, Hey Debussy, Graveyard Hill, This is my Fate, Daniel Boone, Nomatterday. All subjective as you said, it’s all opinion. Mine is that songs like Pagan Man, Sadducee, Who’s More Sorry Now are not really interesting beyond a surface “enjoyment” of the music itself. BF can do better. But I guess he has done enough, so I should shut the hell up, haha. Cheers to Charles for all the great music he has given us.
I respect BF immensely, and although I dig Pixies much more than FB stuff, I mostly am not big on FB&Cs and the more Americana and American songbook type stuff. Dog in the Sand and SMYT are easily my top FB&C releases though because ether contain enough energy combined with BF’s unique viewpoint that I can get into it. Maybe that’s my big issue with Doggerel. Bottom line, I just don’t think his songwriting is very good here. Dog in the Sand is miles better in that department and it’s not the old punky stuff either. St Francis Dam Disaster? Damn man, that’s a helluva well written and played song. Stylistically it isn’t my favorite but it’s a great song to listen to.
Nomatterday isn’t super punky or rockin but it just has something unique that I’m looking for from BF. That song works really well. But man, coming out of quarantine and so much strife and wackiness in this world, I was expecting BF to get a little gritty or emotional or whatever on this album. Are you guys impressed with the lyrics and choruses on this release or do you more enjoy the music and vibe that the band exude? This does seem to be a less strained or try hard type of album, but BTE seemed that way to me as well. He just dug a little deeper on that one, at least to me.
I would like to know what songs Paz was referring to when she mentioned that some were picked that she wouldn’t have chosen. Would be so curious to know if Tom is the final call on the track list, or if it’s BF or the manager? |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 00:36:27
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I'm loving this people
Good to see you all back
Good to hear new FBF in 2022
Don't piss in the fountain
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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sdon
= Cult of Ray =
France
786 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 00:56:49
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I like reading your insights
--
"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)"
"Fucking up my devotion!"
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3159 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 01:26:09
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| Again my ears are not super trained but I don’t detect brickwalling anywhere? Maybe all our complaining reached the producers |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 01:57:46
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Doggerel sounds way more open than BTE and HC, yes
But that doesn't mean it's not brickwalled.
So I'm just like you Bedbug. I have no idea, but I don't detect either.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 04:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by natenate101
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.
I had a long reply typed up but it wouldn’t allow me to post and it got deleted.
Maybe because you were editing your post that I quoted?
Thanks for the reply Nate! I can dig your perspective. I want to mention though that if your post didn’t go through it wasn’t because I was editing mine - it’s just text in these replies with the forum code to format it. It’s not a link back to the original quote. That’s why you can delete or change someone’s original text in your quote like i did above here.
Anyway, I agree the songwriting isn’t up to the level of a lot of Catholics and earlier stuff. It hasn’t quite been there for a long time, which is why I went with the best since Bluefinger. But that said I think the songwriting is quite good. And it’s still early, maybe it will grow on you. I thought bossonava was pretty terrible the first several times I heard it with the exception of a couple tracks. Eventually I came to think of it as the sleeper pick for best Pixies album. Charles’ stuff almost always takes me a long time to appreciate.
As for the lyrics, I honestly don’t see much drop off in quality, if any, from the other 2.0 songs. It’s not like many of them are lyrical gems. In fact overall I think the lyrics are a little better here than on IC and HC. There’s nothing mind blowing there but they’re refreshingly straightforward, concise, and not trying to be too clever. I think he tries to hard sometimes. Some of the topics and lines on IC are just not good as far as I’m concerned.
What songs / lines bug you in terms of quality? The 3 you mentioned, Sadducee, Pagan, and Who’s more sorry?
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings. |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 04:39:31
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One thing I'll add - I just read the Pitchfork review. While I disagree with their final rating (I think it's more like an 8 than a 6.5), and some of their usual Pitchfork shenanigans (although they're softened, a little here), I think they really nail a critical factor on this one that I agree with:
"There may be no surprises on Doggerel but, crucially, there’s no pandering, either."
I don't know if I'd put that particular line in the top 5 reasons I love the new record, but it's definitely an undercurrent to the whole thing. It feels and sounds natural, which is what I think I was trying to say on my initial, 2nd listen reaction a few pages back. I feel like there is a good amount of pandering on the first two albums in particular - or maybe just trying to hard. or something. It can come across as pandering though. I think it's the dreaded Fakey Factor that Charles referenced many times back in the late 00's when discussing new Pixies music. Pandering, fakey, trying too hard, whatever it is - I recognized it. Less on BTE but it's still there a little.
There's none of that here, that I can detect.
And while I'm here, at the end of the day, after all the ink we've spilled about it - definitely myself included - I gotta stand up and give Tom D a round of appaluse. The production and engineering are great, the songs are great, there are a ton of nice surprises to find on each listen with new sounds, guitar stabs, arrangement choices, backing vocals, and mixing choices. And again, they restrained themselves from going after that fakey, pandering holy grail thing - whatever intangible quality is that I can't quite describe but I definitely sense. That said - I'd love for Tom to step aside and give someone else a shot, to keep things fresh, especially now that they've shaken off the legacy fears.
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings. |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1019 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 05:17:32
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quote:
Originally posted by natenate101
All subjective as you said, it’s all opinion. Mine is that songs like Pagan Man, Sadducee, Who’s More Sorry Now are not really interesting beyond a surface “enjoyment” of the music itself. BF can do better. But I guess he has done enough, so I should shut the hell up, haha. Cheers to Charles for all the great music he has given us.
I respect BF immensely, and although I dig Pixies much more than FB stuff, I mostly am not big on FB&Cs and the more Americana and American songbook type stuff. Dog in the Sand and SMYT are easily my top FB&C releases though because ether contain enough energy combined with BF’s unique viewpoint that I can get into it. Maybe that’s my big issue with Doggerel. Bottom line, I just don’t think his songwriting is very good here. Dog in the Sand is miles better in that department and it’s not the old punky stuff either. St Francis Dam Disaster? Damn man, that’s a helluva well written and played song. Stylistically it isn’t my favorite but it’s a great song to listen to.
Are you guys impressed with the lyrics and choruses on this release or do you more enjoy the music and vibe that the band exude? This does seem to be a less strained or try hard type of album, but BTE seemed that way to me as well. He just dug a little deeper on that one, at least to me.
Well put, and I think you're right here. For the record, I prefer Beneath the Eyrie where I think there is a bit more going on under the surface. I think the lyrics are probably the biggest weakness of this album insofar as they mostly serve as place holders. That being said, I think Charles is closer to McCartney and Neil Young than Dylan and Leonard Cohen as first and foremost a first-rate writer of melodies rather than lyrics - not to say that he McCartney or Young can't write excellent lyrics. I do think, in that vein, that some of the chord progressions/melodies on this album are very accomplished, and perhaps most so on some of the more "Frank Black" songs like "Thunder and Lightning" and "Pagan Man". So yes, overall I think this is more one where I enjoy the music and vibes.
The other thing I would say is that the sheer variety is very appealing. We get great indie songs like Nomatterday, Simulate Me, and even Joey's Dregs of the Wine; strong Frank Black strummers; and even a new direction that we haven't heard before from Charles with "Doggerel". It doesn't have as many peaks as BTE or even IC, but it's a very consistent and surprisingly coherent record. |
Edited by - Brank_Flack on 10/04/2022 05:22:55 |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 06:00:59
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Since we're posting longer impressions, I saw that the user reviews on rateyourmusic were mostly negative. The kids there were pretty down on "Doggerel" so it made me want to post my own review there, so I did. Here it is:
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Those of us who are members of the "Frank Black Is Better Than the Pixies" club will have an easier time with an album like Doggerel than most.
We'll recognize the place that these mostly midtempo melodies and mood pieces occupy in Black's evolution into a classic rock songwriter, which reached the chrysalis stage twenty-five years ago with Frank Black and the Catholics, but there were signs of it from the beginning.
We'll also hear it as Black's twenty-fifth album, if you count everything, rather than merely the Pixies' eighth. It's been a long trip. At this point, I don't have lofty expectations. I just want to hear what's on his mind.
That said, I do stay away from labeling neo-Pixies albums as solo albums in disguise, even if that's how I processed them at first. In 2013, I was never excited by "new Pixies", but I was on board for more Frank Black (or Black Francis, whatever) songs, which is why I liked Indie Cindy more than most when it came out.
No, these new Pixies albums ARE the Pixies. It's not just Black Francis and some clowns. This band has a swing that belongs to them. That unmistakable Joey Santiago guitar sound is everywhere. "New" bassist Paz Lenchantin (she's closing in on a decade with the band) fits right in with lots of swaggering, melodic lines executed with David Lovering's sturdy support.
What's changed are the obvious things.
1) Everyone's older. Me, too. I think this band has about as much interest in making another Surfer Rosa as I have in hitting on college girls while drunk on Rolling Rock. I'm not saying that it wasn't fun at the time, but you move on. You stop fitting in at the party. You don't CARE to fit in at the party. You want to go somewhere else.
2) It's not the 1980s anymore. Music is as much a product of its time as it is a product of the people who made it. Old Pixies music needed the late 80s to exist. The Pixies loved rock, but weren't feeling the popular conventions of the time so they flew against as many of them as they could, according to their own worldview. You can't start that up again twenty-five years later and expect the same results. The people are different. The world is different.
The reasons to keep the b(r)and name going are obvious in today's treacherous music industry, but the group make the most of it. They sound totally locked into each other and comfortable. The original band members are all hovering at around age 60 and seem to want to keep this thing going. They have no drama. Or at least none that lasts or gets in the way.
And what do they sound like 2022?
Smokey is the first word that comes to mind. We're on the highway at 2 AM.
Frank barely screams at all and nor should he. It's late.
Their influences are classic stuff that are always in the air. The songs in a truckstop jukebox. Timeless hits still on the radio. Moments on Doggerel remind me of Neil Young and Tom Petty and George Harrison. It has that sound of old hands at the game. Doggerel flows like a river with rockers and pretties all neatly placed.
A few highlights:
"Vault of Heaven" brings a fine nocturnal shamble, but what I'm really hooked on is Joey Santiago's cool Duane Eddy lead guitar tone.
"Get Simulated" blew by me through my first few spins, but it eventually emerged as one of the album's tentpoles. It's an infectious stomp that does its thing for about three minutes in our world and then stops. I'm still stomping to it in my head after it's over, though.
"Thunder and Lightning" is a lost mid-70s FM radio hit found in this oddest of places, a late period 2022 Pixies album. It yearns and it burns. It reminds me of Neil Young, but I think that Fleetwood Mac coulda sold this one just as well.
"Who's More Sorry Now?" is a break-up song and my first favorite track here. I still hit the back button to replay its powerful chorus and dreamy bridge a few more times every time. It's a Beatles moment. Its quiet rage sounds like one of George's songs.
"Doggerel" closes out the show and it's really late now. Black finds his inner Leonard Cohen here while the band eases up to a catharsis that sounds like we finally arrived at where we've been going. The lights sparkle and everything feels good. "I'll never wander again/ I'm gonna stay to the end here with you" goes the main hook. It's a sign-off for the album. It's done wandering. It's finished and now it's always going to be here, whether you like it or not.
In conclusion, the Pixies pretty much make music for old people now. Their live show is still jam-packed with the ancient crowd-pleasers, but they make records like this, these mature slow-burners. As an old person, I approve. |
Edited by - Jason on 10/04/2022 06:01:57 |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1019 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 06:34:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason
1) Everyone's older. Me, too. I think this band has about as much interest in making another Surfer Rosa as I have in hitting on college girls while drunk on Rolling Rock. I'm not saying that it wasn't fun at the time, but you move on. You stop fitting in at the party. You don't CARE to fit in at the party. You want to go somewhere else.
Fantastic, thanks for sharing Jason - I always enjoy your writing. I particularly related to this gem, haha. |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 06:39:43
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Jason - Outstanding. Well done. You and I are exactly on the same page(s). I feel like I could have written that. You even made a party analogy as I did a few posts back. Your points about music being as much about a time and place and age as anything else is a central tenant to my analysis and appreciation of music, and always has been. Agree with your individual song analysis as well. Good stuff.
I don't use rate your music - can people react to your review?
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 07:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
Jason - Outstanding. Well done. You and I are exactly on the same page(s). I feel like I could have written that. You even made a party analogy as I did a few posts back. Your points about music being as much about a time and place and age as anything else is a central tenant to my analysis and appreciation of music, and always has been. Agree with your individual song analysis as well. Good stuff.
I don't use rate your music - can people react to your review?
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.
People can react to it if they have an account on the site.
I'm very much into analyzing and reflecting on the time and place when music is made. It might be a by-product of writing so much about music. I'm looking for something juicier to talk about than "this song is good and this song sucks". Also, it's an underappreciated topic.
Thanks for the kind words! |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3159 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 07:45:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
And to risk being annoying, the title of Who's More Sorry Now? made me think of Mrs. John Murphy, and then when I saw that the lyrics refer to a mannequin (last referenced in You Ain't Me) I thought even more so. But who knows.
Oh, yes, you nailed it.
"Split your sails" or "split your sales", hm?
Good one! He does this not infrequently, these plays on words |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1019 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 08:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
And to risk being annoying, the title of Who's More Sorry Now? made me think of Mrs. John Murphy, and then when I saw that the lyrics refer to a mannequin (last referenced in You Ain't Me) I thought even more so. But who knows.
Oh, yes, you nailed it.
"Split your sails" or "split your sales", hm?
Good one! He does this not infrequently, these plays on words
Sorry, I'm not following this thread - can someone spell it out for me? |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
961 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 08:17:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Brank_Flack
Sorry, I'm not following this thread - can someone spell it out for me?
If Who's More Sorry Now is about Kim Deal, the mention of "sales" as in record sales would be a big clue, at least for me. The official lyric video spells it "sails" but I have a feeling Charles is doing some wordplay here.
The very quick and cut off (it's only half a verse) mannequin reference is evoking You Ain't Me, where Charles describes Kim (accurately) like a black-eyed mannequin.
The song also has a similar sentiment of looking back regretfully and with a kind of melancholy mature acceptance as the Kim song All I Think About Now.
Of course, it could be about many other things too. |
Edited by - Troubles A Foot on 10/04/2022 08:18:08 |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 09:05:58
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Does anyone actually sell albums anymore, besides to the handful of vinyl guys like me and that dying breed that likes to buy CDs to have a physical copy? Pretty much all streams now…
Don’t cross the streams over me?
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings. |
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The Maharal
= Cult of Ray =
996 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 10:50:21
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| I think all of the 2.0 albums a little flawed and would probably rate them all 3 stars out of 5, maybe a 4/5 for IC and this one. They all have some fantastic moments but are weighed down slightly by some misfires. Don't think IC has any outright bad songs, one or two merely OK ones, but plenty of good / great songs that could have been trimmed down. Head Carrier has some wonderful songs but sounds like muck at times and had All I Think About Now, good lord. On BTE the cringe factor was pretty big on Long Rider and a couple of other songs failed to do anything for me. On Doggerel I think the most obvious weakness is Moon and some really uninspired lyrics on a couple of other tracks. I like Pagan Man but not too sure about the lyrics or the whistling part. Nomatterday, House, Simulated, Doggerel and Sadducee are MASSIVE highs for me. They match the energy of the BTE demos and I think they'll remain favourites. Some of the shorter BTE tracks were fun at first but I feel like I'm already done with them. They don't have a lot of replay value. There's a lot more meat on this album. As for the country-ish songs, they're decent. They've been stuck in my head at various points over the last few days. Lord is OK but it feels like we've already heard it. Who's More Sorry is very catchy - I think the guitar reminds me of one of his Reid Paley collaborations, maybe Curse or Seal, but I can't quite pinpoint it. Maybe there's a little My Life Is In Storage? Need to investigate further. Thunder is very catchy too. I do genuinely think there's a 5 stars out of 5 critically-acclaimed alt country album to come from Frank down the line. Maybe he'll team up with Tiven again. |
Edited by - The Maharal on 10/04/2022 10:53:23 |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3910 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 11:10:54
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Think I'm hearing Haunted House a wee bit of slack? Not sure - some seem to think it's a bit cheesy pop maybe or something missing from it. I personally think it's a grand pop tune - it was stuck in my head the other day. I think the vocals at the end work perfectly and have lots of character to them that feels new.
It's a common criticism that Charles can't really hit the high notes so well now or just doesn't sound as good - part of aging and nothing can be done about it - but on this track he really belts the high notes out effortlessly.
Just thinking too - since he lost a bit of weight that might explain him singing high notes better these days ? less padding round the old diaphragm and all that - handy for breathing |
Edited by - pot on 10/04/2022 11:12:03 |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3159 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 11:21:12
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| Rhyming Sadducee with “sad to see” is from an old Christian hymn circa John the Revelator. Frank either consciously or subconsciously or unconsciously borrowed it from that. People complaining about that rhyme aren’t really complaining at Frank unbeknownst to them. |
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The Maharal
= Cult of Ray =
996 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 11:30:50
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Any chance to post this: https://youtu.be/-nOpLmuNv6Y?t=242
And I agree with Pot - Haunted House is a wonderful song. It shocked me because I had predicted from the title it would be BF in deep voice mode and something like Silver Snail, The Water, The End of the Summer, etc. It reminds me of Mal De Mer and going full circle with Glen Hansard maybe a little of Ghost Coming. For me the song is the perfect fusion of latter day Pixies and Bluefinger/SVNFNGRS/Golem/NSE BF. |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3910 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 12:34:00
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| I'm also going to continue to have Pagan Man's back - it's not one of the best tracks on the album but it's better than Moon Song - it wouldn't be out of place on FMRM I think. He's not doing so well on the high notes on that one but it's just a nice, catchy tune and I like it a lot. |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
961 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 13:46:34
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| Personally I could never imagine criticizing Frank's singing. He just does it the way he does it and if he didn't he wouldn't be Frank Black or whatever. It's the least of my concerns. Nothing has ever jumped out as a problem for me in the years I've devoured his music. My only issue with vocals is when I hear obvious autotune. I'm more worried about the songwriting, the arrangement and Dalgety's formulaic production. |
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Jamie
- FB Fan -
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2022 : 22:32:29
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quote:
Originally posted by pot
It's a common criticism that Charles can't really hit the high notes so well now or just doesn't sound as good - part of aging and nothing can be done about it - but on this track he really belts the high notes out effortlessly.
Just thinking too - since he lost a bit of weight that might explain him singing high notes better these days ? less padding round the old diaphragm and all that - handy for breathing
I doubt that, it probably has more to do with getting to rest his voice for the past two years. |
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Doggerel
