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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
2411 Posts |
 Posted - 07/31/2022 : 11:22:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
Lord Has Come Back Today...
It's nice. It still sticks out like crazy in a Pixies show. Out of all the new songs we've heard, this is one of the only ones I'm not immediately disappointed in. But it's still that same 1, 2, 3, 4...a very very unambitious melody, chords, where is that Pixies/Frank unpredictability? Catholics had conventional moments but it still had that Frank Black weirdness on tons of songs. It's like his whole songwriting style totally changed, or Dalgety flattened it down or something.
(wow this song just sorta ends? The audience was confused. Hmm.)
Much more capo use from Charles on the new songs than we've had before (all four of the Doggerel ones we've heard live). Some interesting chord voicings as a result, which feeds into the folky feel to the songs. I'd love to hear a solo show with them!
I like them all (Vault of Heaven does feel underpowered from the versions we've heard so far), although I'm hoping for some brasher ones on the record too.
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Edited by - Ziggy on 07/31/2022 11:24:36 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6012 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2022 : 23:38:34
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I'm getting familiar with the material and some good production can make these songs shine
They can also be very dull, the material itself - "the songs" - isn't that mind boggling
But it can be "cinematic", "simple", "universal" or even "classic".
Authenticity doesn't always mean original
Original doesn't always mean "new" or "inventive"
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 04:47:58
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I think I get the complaint that people have with the lyrics / words of some of these 2.0 songs, but again, can anyone point me to some brilliant lyricism and writing on Surfer Rosa? Maybe I’ve missed it all these years, but “peachy peach kissy kiss” and “it’s called Tony’s theme” and even when I’m hearing a million people cover WIMM it’s laughable how fun and simple and goofy and spazzed out these lyrics are. It’s not Bob Dylan’s Tempest by a light year. Why is the goofiness of 2.0 so off putting now, unless being compared to Speedy Marie or Valley of Our Hope or something.
Genuinely asking |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3909 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 05:16:04
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Surfer Rosa had some great song writing
The lyrics don't matter.. as long as the song is worth listening to |
Edited by - pot on 08/01/2022 05:17:00 |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 07:03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by pot
Surfer Rosa had some great song writing
The lyrics don't matter.. as long as the song is worth listening to
It sounds like your point is my point? But I’m not sure. |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
818 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 07:04:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
I think I get the complaint that people have with the lyrics / words of some of these 2.0 songs, but again, can anyone point me to some brilliant lyricism and writing on Surfer Rosa?
Uhhhhhhh...really?? |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 07:37:10
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Somebody got hurt
Somebody get hurt
Somebody got hurt |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3909 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 08:14:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
quote:
Originally posted by pot
Surfer Rosa had some great song writing
The lyrics don't matter.. as long as the song is worth listening to
It sounds like your point is my point? But I’m not sure.
I think further discussion is required to identify the specific criteria responsible for lyrical appreciation |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6012 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 08:56:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
Somebody got hurt
Somebody get hurt
Somebody got hurt
Haha
Good one
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
818 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 09:04:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
Somebody got hurt
Somebody get hurt
Somebody got hurt
Yeah, this is a haunting part of that song. Those are good lyrics. They are evocative and make you wonder what awful thing happened. And hey, what about the rest of the amazing lyrics to that song? Or on the whole album?
Not exactly the same as "I went to 7-11 cause it's great" or "I cock a doodle doo" or whatever.
I find it really wild you're on this forum saying you can't think of literally any good lyrics on the entire album of Surfer Rosa. That's a creative, terrifying, surreal, funny, weird batch of lyrics all over that album. Is it really so challenging?
And Where Is My Mind has great lyrics. Perhaps we have a different definition of what makes a good or bad lyric? I love lyrics that are evocative and that put you in a place. Haunting, ambiguous (yet strangely specific), uses the five senses. Off kilter, unpredictable.
Where Is My Mind does that. As does most of the rest of Surfer Rosa. |
Edited by - Troubles A Foot on 08/01/2022 09:10:48 |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 09:38:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
Somebody got hurt
Somebody get hurt
Somebody got hurt
Yeah, this is a haunting part of that song. Those are good lyrics. They are evocative and make you wonder what awful thing happened. And hey, what about the rest of the amazing lyrics to that song? Or on the whole album?
Not exactly the same as "I went to 7-11 cause it's great" or "I cock a doodle doo" or whatever.
I find it really wild you're on this forum saying you can't think of literally any good lyrics on the entire album of Surfer Rosa. That's a creative, terrifying, surreal, funny, weird batch of lyrics all over that album. Is it really so challenging?
And Where Is My Mind has great lyrics. Perhaps we have a different definition of what makes a good or bad lyric? I love lyrics that are evocative and that put you in a place. Haunting, ambiguous (yet strangely specific), uses the five senses. Off kilter, unpredictable.
Where Is My Mind does that. As does most of the rest of Surfer Rosa.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not asking you to follow me, just to understand a way. I love the SR lyrics, and my point is the 2.0 lyrics are, while maybe not in every instance, in the same minimalist, mysterious, abstract kind of vein.
The drumsticks were his treasure trove, found in the ashes of the coconut grove. That’s either silly shallow stuff or deep mysterious, haunting stuff, but not really that far removed from a fish is fast and Jimmy is cast, hang me. |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
818 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 09:41:22
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quote:
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not asking you to follow me, just to understand a way. I love the SR lyrics, and my point is the 2.0 lyrics are, while maybe not in every instance, in the same minimalist, mysterious, abstract kind of vein.
The drumsticks were his treasure trove, found in the ashes of the coconut grove. That’s either silly shallow stuff or deep mysterious, haunting stuff, but not really that far removed from a fish is fast and Jimmy is cast, hang me.
I'm talking specifically about the lyrics we know for Doggerel though, not recent Pixies albums. I think we're talking past each other here. I like the lyrics for BTE, for the most part.
I think Brick Is Red is a scary, beautiful song and it's actually made me cry. So not sure your example there will resonate with me. |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 10:14:07
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I hear you
I’ll have to see if I feel differently after I hear Doggerel and read all the lyrics.
The differences I perceive with 2.0 versus 1.0 have not really been the lyrics up to this point. |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3909 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 10:21:24
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| I thought Doggerel was a great title for an album, and very fitting and reflective of FBF's style - but if all the songs are going to be lame 4/4 verse chorus verse chorus songs then that to me is like the opposite of "doggerel" |
Edited by - pot on 08/01/2022 10:29:40 |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 10:27:08
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quote:
Originally posted by pot
I thought Doggerel was a great title for an album, and very fitting and reflective of FBF's style - but if all the songs are going to lame 4/4 verse chorus verse chorus songs then that to me is like the opposite of "doggerel"
Maybe that’s what he’s going for |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3909 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 10:31:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
quote:
Originally posted by pot
I thought Doggerel was a great title for an album, and very fitting and reflective of FBF's style - but if all the songs are going to lame 4/4 verse chorus verse chorus songs then that to me is like the opposite of "doggerel"
Maybe that’s what he’s going for
Why doesn't he call the album "Normal Songs" then? |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 10:37:33
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quote:
Originally posted by pot
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
quote:
Originally posted by pot
I thought Doggerel was a great title for an album, and very fitting and reflective of FBF's style - but if all the songs are going to lame 4/4 verse chorus verse chorus songs then that to me is like the opposite of "doggerel"
Maybe that’s what he’s going for
Why doesn't he call the album "Normal Songs" then?
Maybe he’s channeling his inner John Cleese or somebody like that? |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3909 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 10:40:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
quote:
Originally posted by pot
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
quote:
Originally posted by pot
I thought Doggerel was a great title for an album, and very fitting and reflective of FBF's style - but if all the songs are going to lame 4/4 verse chorus verse chorus songs then that to me is like the opposite of "doggerel"
Maybe that’s what he’s going for
Why doesn't he call the album "Normal Songs" then?
Maybe he’s channeling his inner John Cleese or somebody like that?
Could explain the weight loss maybe. Has anyone noticed him getting taller recently, or occasionally walking funny? |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6012 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 13:07:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
quote:
Originally posted by pot
I thought Doggerel was a great title for an album, and very fitting and reflective of FBF's style - but if all the songs are going to lame 4/4 verse chorus verse chorus songs then that to me is like the opposite of "doggerel"
Maybe that’s what he’s going for
I'm sure they were going for that
Recent Interviews
FBF: cinematic, universal
Joey: simplicity
Paz about Tom's influence too
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3909 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2022 : 14:40:10
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| If I want simplicity I'll listen to the foo fighters (or not) |
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TheScooper
- FB Fan -
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2022 : 13:46:41
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Simple and interesting aren't mutually exclusive. There's lots of OG Pixies and FB/BF solo material that's "simple," but off kilter or weird or evocative in some way.
Agree with everything Troubles been saying. Lyrics on SR can be incredible. "Our love is rice and beans and horses lard"? That's awesome. So strange and grotesque while also romantic within its own deranged context. "Your bones got a little machine" is definitely great lyricism. It's not Bob Dylan style literary lyricism or something, but it's not trying to be. They're a surrealist band, as BF has said.
But to the point, you can get away with a lot if the songs are interesting. But TD seems to be doing everything possible blah blah blah it's obvious what I think about that. I wish Gil would come back or.........just anything |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3909 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2022 : 15:06:30
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Fair point - lots of early Pixies songs are really simple
However - Doggerel doesn't seem synonymous with that concept
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
818 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2022 : 19:00:53
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| I genuinely don't find any early Pixies songs simple. What makes the Pixies stand out is how bizarre the timing, chords, lyrics, etc are. The songs are wildly unpredictable. |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3909 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2022 : 00:43:25
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Most of them aren't really I suppose - I was just thinking of some tracks on Bossa like Stormy Weather and Havalina, Ana (which they played live recently which was awesome) I guess there's simplicity running through those tracks while at the same time having hidden complexities?
Now I feel like that guy in The Fast Show sketches who just agress with everything anyone says. |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2022 : 01:29:14
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But even if Dalgerty is picking the boring songs over the interesting songs it’s ultimately our man who’s writing the boring ones. It’s not like “pick anything on this purple tape and it will be awesome.
How about this: take the 2.0 lyrics and put them with the 1.0 music. My guess is we all like them better. |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3909 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2022 : 03:00:26
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I have a problem with the lyric in Vault Of Heaven that references the band "Dire Straits" - not saying I don't like Dire Straits and yes I know they don't mean the band but when I hear it I immediately think of the band - I guess they have inadvertently repurposed that expression without meaning too.
It's just a horrible lyric - same as pretty much all the lyrics from the Moon song IMO and I can't really explain why I don't like them.
That said, whenever there's a discussion about lyrics I always think about a lesson I got from my music teacher at school, who referenced specifically the lyrics from Walk Of Life by Dire Straits (which was a hit at the time) and his main thesis was that it doesn't matter what the lyrics are - it's the song that matters.
I think this is at the heart of the matter - if the song is good the lyrics don't matter, but if the song is bad then you better make sure the lyrics ain't bad too.
I'm not saying I think Vault Of Heaven is a bad song - I've only heard it once and I thought it was alright but I suspect it'll probably get shelved after a few listens like the whole album when it comes out I predict. Maybe not though, I would love to be surprised.
Dalgety hasn't done a bad job really, but he's too commercial for the Pixies sound.
Reminds me of the time when Metallica decided to get their new album produced by Bon Jovi producer Bob Rock - everyone including people who weren't previously thrach metal heads like me at the time loved The Black Album! But I felt it was too commercial a sound and I stopped listening to Metallica after that. In hindsight this was probably not a bad move as it opened me up to a world of music other than just the hairy unwashed thrashing out noise. |
Edited by - pot on 08/03/2022 03:03:11 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6012 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2022 : 06:27:38
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Let's wait for the whole record, dear people!
To me it would be ok if the Press kit for Doggerel said something like
This is our MOR-record, we are trying to be cinematic
That would help me
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2022 : 07:34:32
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quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
Let's wait for the whole record, dear people!
To me it would be ok if the Press kit for Doggerel said something like
This is our MOR-record, we are trying to be cinematic
That would help me
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
Are you trying to bring sanity to this forum? Isn’t the whole point of this place for obsessed people to obsess over their obsession? |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2022 : 09:36:18
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| I'm not even thinking about Doggerel until it's in my CD player. |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3909 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2022 : 10:12:59
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| Make sure you buy it from HMV so you can take it back if it you don't like it. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6012 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2022 : 12:46:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
Let's wait for the whole record, dear people!
To me it would be ok if the Press kit for Doggerel said something like
This is our MOR-record, we are trying to be cinematic
That would help me
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
Are you trying to bring sanity to this forum? Isn’t the whole point of this place for obsessed people to obsess over their obsession?
No, no, I'm all for the obsession. No sanity please!
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6012 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2022 : 12:48:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason
I'm not even thinking about Doggerel until it's in my CD player.
You did remember the title, just now
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2022 : 13:04:15
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Re: the no banter during live shows phenomenon, someone correct me if I'm wrong but this is how I understand it to have played out:
1) Early 1.0 shows had banter
2) Later 1.0 shows had little to no banter, perhaps due to certain dynamics within band personalities
3) Early 2.0 (pre-Paz) shows had banter, first with Kim #1 then with Kim #2
4) Later 2.0 (Paz era) shows had no banter
Also, early FB tours had tons of banter, as did plenty of FB&C's shows, as did some later FB solo shows
Is this accurate? |
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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
2411 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2022 : 13:59:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
Re: the no banter during live shows phenomenon, someone correct me if I'm wrong but this is how I understand it to have played out:
1) Early 1.0 shows had banter
2) Later 1.0 shows had little to no banter, perhaps due to certain dynamics within band personalities
3) Early 2.0 (pre-Paz) shows had banter, first with Kim #1 then with Kim #2
4) Later 2.0 (Paz era) shows had no banter
Also, early FB tours had tons of banter, as did plenty of FB&C's shows, as did some later FB solo shows
Is this accurate?
Very little chat even in the early 2.0 shows.
There'd usually be a "hi" from Kim but little more. I remember hearing the boot of the 2004 Coachella show and Charles only spoke to urge people to go easy on the "pushy push" in the front rows, since things were getting rowdy.
Kim acknowledged this at the 2004 Brixton show I was at - "David's mother - Mrs Lovering - she said we need to talk more! And say "gee it's great to be here!"
They used to do that routine of saying goodnight to each other too at later shows I think? |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2022 : 18:03:40
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I saw Frank and The Catholics five times, I believe, and I didn't recall Frank saying much of anything to the crowd beyond crediting the band at some seemingly random point ("On drums, Scott Boutier...", etc.)
It's been awhile, though.
93-96 Frank could get chatty on stage. His stripped-down performances over the years (performing alone or with one other person) also tend to find him in a friendly mood.
The three Pixies 2.0 shows I've seen since 2004, I don't recall him saying a single word.
I think it's cool. It's partly his personality and partly an aloof, mysterious stage presence that they're all surely conscious of maintaining. It works for them.
The Ramones were like that, too. They were a machine gun on stage, no chit-chat. |
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Doggerel
