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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
 Posted - 09/11/2016 : 05:52:36
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Another thing about this - they (Pixies, producers, and everyone involved) aren't making this music for "us." I mean "us" on this forum who argue and discuss the minutia and finest details of every little thing. They're making this record for everyone and anyone, and everyone and anyone doesn't give two yodeling shit whistles for this whole 'compression' argument, nor do they even notice it. They just notices if a song comes up on their phone that doesn't sound as loud or whatever as the track by a different artist that came before it.
My density has popped me to you. |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2016 : 06:34:58
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You're right, nobody gives a shit. Music is destroyed, souds like crap, and nobody cares.
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
653 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2016 : 08:06:29
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FWIW, I concur with just about everything johnnyribcage said above.
FBF has been on the record for years as either saying or doing plenty of things along the lines of "I don't care what format the music comes out on, however people like to get it and listen to it," and "I don't really have the time or patience to deal with album cover art and packaging, I just leave that up to other people who know more about it than I do," and "It's often easier to just put setlists and/or boxed set tracklists in alphabetical order, rather than fret over clever or creative sequencing."
In other words, he generally wants to write songs, record them, and move on quickly, leaving the rest of the details of making them available for sale (which seems to include mastering, packaging, marketing, release schedules, promotion, etc...) to other folks.
I've come to assume and accept that for the most part, with a few occasional exceptions, his overriding attitude is that once the recordings are made, that anything whatsoever that is done to or with them which his management or label team deems likely to make those recordings more attractive to the general public (meaning average joe listeners) in this modern age is completely fine with him - and that includes subscribing to the "sonic flavor of the era" in terms of extremes in compression and dynamic limiting which have become the accepted norm in most of today's mainstream rock and pop music.
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"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
Edited by - peter radiator on 09/11/2016 08:47:52 |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2016 : 08:50:00
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| Thanks Peter for your explanation. It's a shame that LOUDNESS is being pushed on people even if they're not aware of it. |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2016 : 08:58:40
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While I understand and agree about Frank's point regarding set lists and track orders, that all the songs should be good (and so may of his are!) so the order isn't that important but I think that's shortchanging the topic. Who knows if Frank always felt this way or is just reacting to the times.
However, both track listing and a set list determine the mood and impact of an album or show.
I enjoy listening to a record from start to finish and there's an artistry to song placement, conveying mood, how one song fits against another, the feelings the album stirs in you at the beginning contrasting with the silence when the last track is over.
cheers |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2016 : 09:01:31
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Fucking shame we won't be able to enjoy Pixies/BF sound and dynamics in good conditions anymore just because of this stupid, shitty way of mastering record nowadays.
If people "can't tell the difference", then why bother butchering the whole damn thing ? Leave the dynamics in there.
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2016 : 09:01:42
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Hey picpic,
It wasn't always like this, doesn't mean it always will be. Perhaps things will improve and return to a state where if you want to hear the song louder, you simply turn it up, instead of an awful uniformity of LOUD.
cheers |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2016 : 09:20:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Arm Arm Arm
Hey picpic,
It wasn't always like this, doesn't mean it always will be. Perhaps things will improve and return to a state where if you want to hear the song louder, you simply turn it up, instead of an awful uniformity of LOUD.
cheers
I fully anticipate that. I think I posted somewhere else about one day seeing a slew of "unmasters" coming out where they remaster original mixdowns with a less heavy hand, or maybe go back in and clean up the pre-mix multi tracks by removing compression and limiting plugins at the source, if it is there. That's super easy to do with protools. Not just Pixies, basically 80% of everything coming out these days.
It will be a good excuse for another cash grab by record labels. And I'll bite.
Maybe just wishful thinking though.
Take me to the vineyards of Lavaux
Want to see the mountains where the waters flow |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
653 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2016 : 10:20:31
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
I think I posted somewhere else about one day seeing a slew of "unmasters" coming out where they remaster original mixdowns with a less heavy hand, or maybe go back in and clean up the pre-mix multi tracks by removing compression and limiting plugins at the source, if it is there.
Here are two tracks from one of my very favorite "hard Americana" albums.
This record was released over a decade ago, and in general, I love the mix and the tone of everything from the drums to the guitars to the vocal tracks.
I wound up getting to know the guy who engineered the record a bit (he's actually semi-legendary among some in the industry for the amazing studio sounds he gets on drum kits), and when I told him how much I loved this album from start to finish, especially the overall sound of the record, his reply was, "Oh, man, thanks a lot. I really loved that record too. I only wish you could have heard it before it got mastered."
He told me that he has a copy of the original, pre-mastered final mix that he and the band turned in, and that it sounds "1,000 times better" than the official release.
He said there was so much more "life" and "air" and "room" in the tracks, and that he knows fans of the band would instantly hear and appreciate the difference, but it is a forgone conclusion no one else will ever hear that version.
Now, dig: that occurred almost 13 years ago to a band that everyone involved likely knew did not have much of a chance of having anything close to a "mainstream" radio hit - no matter how catchy and well-played many of the songs on this album are.
Yet, it was still a sort of automatic pilot notion even back in 2004, that "modern" rock records needed to have that sort of approach taken to them in the mastering stage.
I realize that these links are to YouTube videos that use a reductionist MP3 compression codec on top of the album's actual sound, but on good headphones, this upload sounds quite a bit better and more natural compared to the CD than many YouTube uploads I have heard.
BTW, if the second track reminds anyone of Matthew Sweet, that's because Television's Richard Lloyd (who played lead guitar on several of Sweet's releases) is featured on that song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLMe-lVgYQ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3cokRbeJOI
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"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2016 : 11:45:37
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Wow really cool tracks! I can hear the boost for sure. Like you and I keep saying though, most folks don't hear that or care. I added The Silos "When The Telephone Rings" to my apple music, and listening to Innocent vs. the youtube cleans it up, but of course the artificial boost is there. I can only imagine what it originally sounded like. I'm liking what I'm hearing and will probably buy the album (I hate streaming services for how they screw the artist but on the other hand it's a great way to find new music that I otherwise never would have heard).
If you can get your hands on (and you very likely may have already heard it) a good copy of Sonny Rollins Way Out West, it's a killer example of how basic recording technique with even the oldest, simplest methods can yield unbelievable results. That album came out in 1957. Not that everything is supposed to sound that clean and airy of course - there is a time and a place for everything including forcing gear and studios to do things they weren't necessarily designed to do.
If you can find it in mono that would be the way to go. It has that stupid hard right/left mixing they used to do for stereo on the stereo version. Headphones pronounces it, so maybe speakers is they way to go if you can only find the stereo version.
An interesting thing I heard on a recent listening is a conversation going on either between the band or more likely between some bystanders in the area on the track Come, Gone. It's super cool.
Take me to the vineyards of Lavaux
Want to see the mountains where the waters flow |
Edited by - johnnyribcage on 09/11/2016 11:51:58 |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1301 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2016 : 11:58:12
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And the music is killer of course, so that helps.
Take me to the vineyards of Lavaux
Want to see the mountains where the waters flow |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
653 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2016 : 13:18:59
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I heard that Sonny Rollins LP on vinyl (not sure if mono, but likely so) about 30 years ago, but do not think I have actively listened to it since.
I will seek it out. Thanks for the suggestion.
That Silos LP is definitely one of their best, and I think it is sequenced very well, too. There is a hidden bonus track on the original CD. I don't mess with Apple Music or streaming services, so I do not know if or how that might show up in such a situation...
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"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2016 : 07:49:55
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http://mushroompromotions.com/bios/album-bio-pixies-head-carrier-play-it-again-sam-out-friday-30-september-2016/
quote:
"The object of Joey’s desire is his band’s new album, Head Carrier. The Pixies’ guitarist may have finished recording it months ago, but he remains utterly smitten. He takes it to bed and discovers little details he hadn’t noticed before. “I was shocked at some songs, they shine at lot better than I thought they would. You could listen to this forever and enjoy it.”"
OK, now we have the answer: the band actually likes this kid of sound.
Sigh.
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OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
469 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2016 : 07:50:19
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I wonder if there'll be a sequel to the 2006 documentary covering the recording of IC & HC? It could be called Loud LOUD Loud. (sorry)
Thanks everyone for the informed discussion here - 'it's educaaationaal'. I knew little about compression other than what my ears perceived. |
Edited by - OLDMANOTY on 09/12/2016 07:51:39 |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2016 : 08:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by OLDMANOTY
I wonder if there'll be a sequel to the 2006 documentary covering the recording of IC & HC? It could be called Loud LOUD Loud. (sorry)
Haha nice one.
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DruggedBunnyToo
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
43 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2016 : 12:29:52
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Was literally about to post the same crappy joke while reading this thread!
EDIT: I'd call it LOUDLOUDLOUD, though -- your way is too subtle.
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James/DruggedBunny[Too]
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Edited by - DruggedBunnyToo on 09/14/2016 12:30:51 |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2016 : 21:38:16
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Me:
"I like Indie Cindy and Head Carrier, but why do those albums have to sound so overcompressed ? It ruins all your band dynamics"
Joey Santiago:
"I'd get a second opinion."
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OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
469 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2016 : 05:51:21
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quote:
Originally posted by picpic
Me:
"I like Indie Cindy and Head Carrier, but why do those albums have to sound so overcompressed ? It ruins all your band dynamics"
Joey Santiago:
"I'd get a second opinion."
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Ouch.
IC is demonstrably bad in places - distorted & muffled. I genuinely thought I had a faulty CD at first (yeah I still buy them occasionally).
Admittedly I've got tinnitus and partial deafness in one ear so that's not going to help!
Of the tracks we have so far, HC is an improvement I think. |
Edited by - OLDMANOTY on 09/15/2016 05:52:48 |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2016 : 08:49:03
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Well, now that's clear. Joey likes compression. Dunno for the rest of the band.
But Joey kind of moved me when he said he was listening to his new baby (Head Carrier) in bed and the songs sounded amazing to him. If it sounds amazing to him... well... I guess we have to accept it. :-/
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Edited by - picpic on 09/15/2016 08:49:50 |
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natenate101
= Cult of Ray =
USA
892 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2016 : 09:50:17
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^ is that really you with those tweets to Joey and Dalgety? Those comments seems pretty disrespectful to me. Dalgety's whole job was to produce and mix the record, and then someone asks him if we will ever get a "proper mastering" of the album? What is the guy supposed to say to that?
It's one thing to take about it here as a fan, smh, I don't know. I just don't get this modern age and people feeling they can just say whatever they want to these artists they admire. It's wild. |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2016 : 11:35:40
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Yep it was angry comment. I think Loudness wars is disrespectful to the audience for my part.
Btw I didn't imply he did the mastering. We don't definitely know for sure.
Sorry for being "disrespectful", but if nobody says nothing about it, it will continue forever. I care very much about music, yes. Anyway, I didn't expected any answer at all. I was surprised Joey actually got the message and answered. He's being honest, good for him.
Anyway, I'm glad my message in a bottle has been read by at least 1 member of the band.
Ps: they use social media all day, whats the problem with sending them a comment ? They probably receive hundreds of useless comments everyday. Maybe mine wasn't so useless after all ?
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Edited by - picpic on 09/15/2016 11:39:05 |
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natenate101
= Cult of Ray =
USA
892 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2016 : 13:16:21
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^ I find your manner of messaging them pretty low to be honest. No positive comments, no thanks for the tunes over the years, just "any chance we get a properly mastered IC and HC (which isn't out yet)?". Bizarre.
It's just my sensibility but questioning their work (Dalgety almost certainly did the final mixes) before the album even comes out proper seems out of line. You seem like a very sensible person on here except for this issue, one you obviously feel strongly about. But voicing that to fellow fans vs. outright questioning the artists themselves about something they are obviously proud of (see recent interviews and Joey's comment about listening to it recently and all that) in such a way is something I don't get at all. |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2016 : 13:50:36
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picpic,
Where did you post this? Where did Joey respond? Are you sure it was him? |
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TheScooper
- FB Fan -
USA
187 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2016 : 15:45:11
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I'm glad someone's reaching out to the band directly. They are allowing their amazing work to be neutered.
I wonder if Joey is listening to some earlier mix, before they handed the whole thing off to be brickwall butchered?
Also, is there even anyone out there who doesn't do this to their records? I can't imagine they'd work with Steve Albini again as he seems to be a pompous ass, and has subsequently trash talked the Pixies. |
Edited by - TheScooper on 09/15/2016 15:45:59 |
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1594 Posts |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2016 : 18:21:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arm Arm Arm
picpic,
Where did you post this? Where did Joey respond? Are you sure it was him?
Twitter @JoeySantiago ;-)
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TheScooper
- FB Fan -
USA
187 Posts |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2016 : 01:56:58
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I think Neil Young Pono system was actually about lossless quality VS "compressed" or "lossy" formats like MP3. That's another form of compression that has nothing to do with dynamic range compression.
My opinion is a little different on this matter: I'm pretty sure nobody or very few people can tell the difference between a high-bitrate MP3 and lossless formats like FLAC.
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1594 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2016 : 05:19:05
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I wasn't talking about PONO. Listen to his albums, listen to the clarity of the recordings.
He has spent the last decade or more working on mastering his own recordings for very
high quality.
About lossless vs. MP3, see my test in this link...
http://forum.frankblack.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19782 |
Edited by - hammerhands on 09/16/2016 05:28:03 |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2016 : 07:36:38
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Wow.
I do think it's a shame if bands aren't interested or even knowledgable about the loudness wars, oh well.
cheers |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2016 : 07:48:41
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Well, maybe Joey has something else to think about right now. It would be interesting to know BF's opinion on this matter.
@hammerhands: sorry, didn't know about Young and dynamic range compression. Did only a few Google searches about it and didn't find anything. So I thought you were talking about his quest for lossless formats. Sorry for the confusion.
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1594 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2016 : 08:01:01
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Take my test, picpic, let me know what you think.
It's best done with headphones. |
Edited by - hammerhands on 09/16/2016 08:03:01 |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2016 : 08:12:41
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I can hear the difference because you tell in your post what detail I have to pay attention to. I think myself, or most of the public just wouldn't notice.
MP3 (high bitrate) VS lossless has more to do with "real" audio enthousiats that have high-end system. (I'm not criticizing, I was once interested in high-end audio).
To be honest, I passed a test a few years ago on a website, and -to my astonishment-, failed every single question  http://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/06/02/411473508/how-well-can-you-hear-audio-quality
Of course, lossless audio is important. But I think there's no danger since you can often download lossless versions of modern albums in no time nowadays. Maybe in a few years, MP3 will be marginal thanks to the high bandwidth connections & increased space we will have at home, on our smartphones, etc... So it does not really scare me as much as compression. But I understand your point ! Of course.
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Edited by - picpic on 09/16/2016 08:13:52 |
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TheScooper
- FB Fan -
USA
187 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2016 : 13:06:40
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I don't have any firsthand knowledge of what you guys are talking about in regards to MP3 vs. flac/lossless, as I don't have decent enough speakers or headphones to be able to detect those differences, and also have no technical knowledge of how sound works.
All I know is that if I listen to MP3s of Come on Pilgrim, they sound great. If I listen to MP3s of Indie Cindy, the songs themselves may be great - but they sound like dog shit pushed through a cheese grater. |
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1874 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2016 : 19:41:18
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Mp3 is not the issue here.
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compression
