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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2016 :  12:07:26  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good mastering will shine through bad mp3s. As picpic said, nothing has anything to do with the final file format - mp3, flac, whatever. If you compare apples to apples, it's the mastering that has the final say. I listen to 80-90% vinyl anyway, so I don't typically give a shit about files other than to ensure they're lossless wherever possible.



Take me to the vineyards of Lavaux
Want to see the mountains where the waters flow
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Srisaket
= Cult of Ray =

Thailand
293 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2016 :  20:47:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you like something then it'll sound good on whatever you listen to it on. It's the music that matters - that's all.
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2016 :  04:51:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
True and false.

I don't care about the "hardware" on which I'm listening music. High-end or low-end system, phone, earpods,... or even the file format. even 128k MP3 - those are all fine for me. But I wouldn't tolerate to hear my favourite tunes distorded, clipped, insanely compressed or destroyed (the latter two being more or less the same to me).

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Edited by - picpic on 09/19/2016 04:56:44
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *

Canada
1511 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2016 :  07:07:25  Show Profile  Visit hammerhands's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Edited by - hammerhands on 09/19/2016 07:07:54
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2016 :  07:59:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For those who want a less-crappy sound, you can try to "repair" more or less the clipped sound damage by following this tutorial in Audacity: http://blog.audioacrobat.com/2012/08/audacity-clip-fix-for-better-quality-windows-7/

Try to experience with the "clip fix" %. It does not repair all the damage Dalgety did to the music, but the album is at least a bit more comfortable to listen to after the fix.

I actually enjoyed listening to some songs after the fix.

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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *

Canada
1511 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2016 :  08:10:08  Show Profile  Visit hammerhands's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You're still going to get high frequencies dropped where there are bass drum hits?
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2016 :  08:24:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The clip fix apparently tries to interpolate or "guess" the missing (or "beheaded") frequencies.

Works more or less.

That's a bit more complicated on this album, sounds like some instruments/vocals are already clipped too, while still mixed lower than the snare drums. So it's impossible to fix those.

Anyway, I have the impression the "fixed" version sounds a bit better (psychoacoustic or real improvement ? You tell me).

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Edited by - picpic on 09/23/2016 08:24:54
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TheScooper
- FB Fan -

USA
104 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2016 :  12:21:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So who should they record with next time to fix this crap?

Someone jokingly mentioned Neil Young, which would be amazing for all sorts of reasons.

I would like to see them work with either of the producers Anna Calvi has recorded with (John Congleton on One Breath, Rob Ellis on the self titled). She is a huge Pixies fan, incidentally. I'm not familiar with either of these producers outside of those two records, but what an improvement it would be based on that alone.

This batch of songs recorded with space for quiet and loud - as opposed to just loud and clipping - would have been amazing. So many textures Joey and co. could have found instead of having it all crushed and compressed.

Edited by - TheScooper on 09/23/2016 12:23:31
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2016 :  17:44:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheScooper

So who should they record with next time to fix this crap?


I would not go so far as to call it crap, and to be fair, a lot of this simply has to do with the overall state of the rock music game and low-fidelitization of playback hardware, circa 2016.

That said, I'll play along:

1. Jack Frost
2. Tom Waits
3. David Bowie (well, shit...)
4. Buddy Miller
5. Chuck Prophet
6. Whoever it was that produced the Catherine Wheel's HAPPY DAYS album. That record sounds great.


--

"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2016 :  01:15:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Listening now to the album through a litttle JBL Charge 2+ speaker. Looks like the record was clearly mastered for this kind of low-end loudspeaker. It sounds WAY better on this little speaker, even Baals Back.

Our last hope: maybe the vinyl version won't be mastered so poorly. Since nobody listens to vinyl records on Ipads, smartphones or small sound bars. Right ? (...right ?)

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Edited by - picpic on 09/26/2016 01:15:30
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sdon
= Cult of Ray =

France
527 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2016 :  01:48:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by picpic

Listening now to the album through a litttle JBL Charge 2+ speaker. Looks like the record was clearly mastered for this kind of low-end loudspeaker. It sounds WAY better on this little speaker, even Baals Back.

Our last hope: maybe the vinyl version won't be mastered so poorly. Since nobody listens to vinyl records on Ipads, smartphones or small sound bars. Right ? (...right ?)

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If I remember well, IC mastering on vinyl was (a bit) better than on digital format (more "air", more dynamic range, at least that's waht I remember feeling when I listened to the vinyl at a friend's place)

One can only hope it is the case for HC, but that's speculation :)

On low-end speakers, I would even say that HC sounds very good, compared to other artists. Strange mastering choice, but clearly deliberate


--
"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)"
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
5174 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2016 :  03:44:17  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Maybe I'm wrong but the voices sound very processed on this record, just like on IC.
Some kind of autotuning software to make the voices sound slick.

I hate that sound and I hear it in almost every song.

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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2016 :  04:26:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not sure about autotune. I can hear some (slight) BF/Paz out of tune harmonies on some songs.

But I can hear some poor editing on the "She lived through the fire but the piano got broke" line on Tenement Song. Like they took 2 takes and put them together. Not unusual, but you shouldn't hear it on a professional mix.

Maybe some will say that's Dalgety "style" - I still believe those "glitches" are just the result of an average but not-so-outstanding work. (<--- MY OPINION)

Everything sounds processed on this record anyway. I guess the limiting is the main culprit.

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Edited by - picpic on 09/27/2016 04:37:02
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2016 :  08:58:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Listening right now to the album through cabasse iroise 500 speakers + yamaha as2000 amp + cambridge dac. Pretty decent system. I don't use it often.

The album sounds less terrible than I expected on large speakers. Very bassy. Lacks treble. (Even considering the Cabasse are very bright-sounding). A bit better than Indie Cindy compression-wise.

I'm praying for the vinyl version to sound better.

Gonna switch to my old Celestion 66 speakers after the Cabasse. Expecting too much bass on those.

I'm feeling like a dinosaur using an amp & big old speakers to listen to music.

Some songs sound better than others. Chagga is a muddy mess. Plaster sound more dynamic.

Edit: as expected, way to much bass on the Celestions. Need bright speakers or bass adjustment on the preamp to listen to this record.


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Edited by - picpic on 09/27/2016 09:30:36
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OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =

United Kingdom
444 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  02:30:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've got a budget high res player (Agptek Imp) and HC sounds much better on the hip hop eq setting - clearer, brighter & less boomily bassy. Don't know if that would be a universal thing on other devices though.
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  04:31:20  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good morning all - I'm not necessarily in the mode to post a big dissertation on this at the moment (I'm sure I will at some point this weekend - lucky you!!!! :D) but I can tell you the record and the FLAC files in particular are, well, in Joey's words, "Itís just a better, better, better quality." I'm not sure I've heard music that is so dramatically effected by the data removal process that is creating lossy files (mp3's, etc).

That is to say, this shit is mastered so damn hot that even the slightest sound degradation winds up buffing the sheen off and taking it over the edge. That's not a good thing in my opinion - one of the tricks to mastering is getting whatever your working on to sound great or at least really good in 80% of all applications ... at least.

What I'm hearing on my studio cans with the vinyl and FLAC files is that, yes indeed, this shit sounds really really good albeit a little hot (what isn't these days?). It also sounds really really great on a good stereo or good cans (again only on vinyl or FLAC). I mean, it's beautiful. You'll hear the album in a different light I guarantee it - do yourself a favor and seek out the CD to rip lossless or the vinyl. Night and day.

It just really hugs that fine line a little to closely and everything we're hearing in streaming or downgraded files isn't reflecting all the audio that is actually there.

In other words - sorry picpic - I'm with Joey.



Take me to the vineyards of Lavaux
Want to see the mountains where the waters flow

Edited by - johnnyribcage on 09/30/2016 05:03:47
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  05:11:40  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Working from home today so I'm just listening a few times back to back in lossless. I'm not sure I have anything else to say on this topic that isn't in my last post. So maybe I'll save you my planned dissertation! Good stuff.



Take me to the vineyards of Lavaux
Want to see the mountains where the waters flow
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TheScooper
- FB Fan -

USA
104 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  05:11:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's awesome! I am really looking forward to it.

Now, for a complete amateur like me, how the hell am I going to listen to this? My 12 year old iPod doesn't support FLAC - anyone have a recommendation on a good replacement device?
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  06:54:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've only listen to the leaked 256k mp3 so far. So I have no definitive opinion until I have listened to the lossless version as you said.

Don't be sorry, I'll be super happy if it sounds better.

However, in terms of dynamic range, shit compression in mp3 will still be shit compression in FLAC.

I'll buy the album anyway, even if I have the leaked version, so I'll go for the FLACs too !

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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  09:02:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK - just bought the lossless version from Qobuz.

Little more treble & of course definition than the leaked 256k MP3 (press version ?). But otherwise that's the same mastering. So, nothing new.

With this little extra treble, snare drums sound better.

But, as I said earlier, I listened to the album on very good and "bright" speakers, and it sounds less terrible this way. I think I can understand now what Dalgety was aiming at when producing the record. When listening to this album on those kind of speakers, it's like you have the band in front on you playing at full volume. I think his goal was to mimic a live sound, like you're in the room with the band, their sound hitting you in the face. And, at the same time, he probably wanted to make the record "listenable" on portable devices and IPods. So, compression makes sense for him.

I still don't like it, but considering what he was aiming at, I don't blame him... But I still think the album would have sounded 10x better without compression. As most modern records.

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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  10:08:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Afer hearing the lossless version on a very good system:

Head carrier - vocals too loud, muddy, confuse mix, too much bass, bad mastering
Classic masher - more dry, better mastering, snare drums still muddy, chorus volume artificially raised - like we can hear dalgety turns the volume knob up during choruses. Weird. This song deserved so much better than this
Baals back: vocals too loud and too muffled at the same time, BF faux-screaming "trick" technique too obvious. Like he screams while whispering. You can't hear that on a good mix, but here it's so obvious. Band sounds muddy and hidden behind vocals
You might as well be gone - good bass in verses much clearer than in previous songs. Volume is again pushed in choruses, thats stupid. Choruses sound less dynamic with this technique
Oona - better mix. Choruses sounds a bit clearer than in previous songs. Clearly less worst than the rest. But still compressed. But better.
Talent - supper muffled snare drums , cant hear much bass on this. Snare drums comes back on bridge when guitars are quieter. Classic stupid compression artefact.
Tenement song - bass is clearer on this one and snares too. Chorus sounds compressed, as always.
All i think about now: sounds much better than other songs. Still compressed when guitars starts to get in the way of everything else, but a bit better.
Plaster - no loud guitar here, so it sounds WAY better.. Of course. Thats probably why more people like this song.. Less compressed. Less guitar on the forefront. Dalgety didnt put all the guitar sound in full volume. So it sounds better.
Saints - again. Quieter song without guitar volume pushed up. So less compression on drums. So it sounds better. You can hear drums, and bass.

Conclusion. same problem on the whole record: as soon as Dalgety pushes the guitar layers at full volume, everything else becomes hidden behind them thanks to the insane compression ratio. So, quieter songs sound much more dynamic and pleasant to listen to.

Sorry for my poor english. Hard to find words to describe things accurately. But I guess you get the idea.


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Edited by - picpic on 09/30/2016 10:39:39
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  10:34:26  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
picpic - man, I love ya - but damn what a tough crowd! At some point ya gotta just listen to the music brother.



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Want to see the mountains where the waters flow
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  10:40:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I love this album.

That's why I'm frustrated.

I'm a bit sorry you ain't getting that. :-/

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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  10:59:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let's clear this up: this topic ic about production issues. Not about the music. I love the music. I love the new album.

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TheScooper
- FB Fan -

USA
104 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  11:17:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"I think his goal was to mimic a live sound, like you're in the room with the band, their sound hitting you in the face"

Funny, since the live versions sound so, so much better.

I don't have any grasp on the technical side of things, but am in complete agreement with PicPic - I love these songs, and think they deserve better than what we're hearing. Double-y so for IC. Just very frustrating.

Hopefully someone will put together the whole record in the form of live performances at some point. But in any case - they are making new music, and it is great music, so thank void for that

Edited by - TheScooper on 09/30/2016 11:18:30
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  12:42:38  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by picpic

Let's clear this up: this topic ic about production issues. Not about the music. I love the music. I love the new album.

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Hey man I think we're mostly on the same page! :) It's all good! I only name dropped you because you were the man with the balls enough to straight up call out Joey on his twitter lol

Nothing but love brother, I hear ya



Take me to the vineyards of Lavaux
Want to see the mountains where the waters flow
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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  13:29:37  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I feel like I'm cheating here. Good source, good listening format = good experience. Sorry folks.


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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2016 :  13:49:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't be sorry. It's great if you can appreciate it.

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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
5174 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2016 :  23:53:17  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Ok, the intro of All I Think About Now, Joeys guitar is so noisey.
Listening with headphones, it sounds very disturbing in my right ear.
This is supposed to be the ballad right?

And I still hear nasty vocal processing on a lot of tracks. Especially Oona, Tenement Song, Classic Masher and Paz lead vocal on AITAN

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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2016 :  02:35:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joey intro on All I Think About Now with headphones tickles my eardrum, too

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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
5174 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2016 :  05:24:06  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Some kind of distortion that I don't really like
Like it wasn't intentional

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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1150 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2016 :  08:07:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I really dig Joey guitar tone on this one. It's loud, but it sounds good to me. Maybe on some heaphones it generates some extra distortion that can hurt the ear.

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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2016 :  09:37:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Re: the "distortion" in the right channel during the intro to "All I Think About Now" - I think what you are referring to is a bit of repeated sonic emphasis on one specific note in his riff.

It's not distortion, per se. It sounds to me like the signal from an additional room mic far from his amp, which is added in along with the close-mic to create a greater sense of ambience and size to his guitar.

Occasionally, there will be certain notes that tend to resonate more acutely in different parts of a room, or at different distances from the front of the guitar cabinet.

I hear that kind of thing all the time in rehearsals and studio situations. There are many factors which contribute to this, including slight fluctuations in intonation of the guitar itself.

To me, it does not sound in anyway unprofessional or like some sort of a mistake. It sounds like the natural noise that loud rock music makes in a room under a microscope.

--

"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
5174 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2016 :  11:08:30  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Thanks!

Let's just say that I don't think the intro shouldn't be "loud rock music" then!



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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2016 :  11:17:02  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sounds like normal distortion harmonics and reflective properties of the room to me.


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