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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
 Posted - 09/19/2013 : 22:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
the idea that albums are just trinkets nowadays is a boring one.
agree
quote:
the pixies are an album band.
says who? Their first release was a 20' 8-track record. EP1 is 16' long.
quote:
many people went to see doolittle played front to back.
I didn't cause I thought it was a terrible idea.
quote:
"singles" and "EPs" in place of LPs is the future as much as 3D movies are the future. spoiler: they're not.
True. That doesn't make them "less valid" or "more commercial" or anything. Rock'n'roll artists in the 50s released 7" singles and EPs and albums and I don't see what the problem was.
Denis
Obsidiana Bijoux |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2013 : 22:11:30
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quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
ie. the pixies.
Someone really needs to ask Frank about this someday. I don't think Bluefinger sounds like the Pixies at all (in terms of songwriting). Except Threshold Apprehension maybe.
Denis
Obsidiana Bijoux |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2013 : 23:00:19
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I don't think that a landscape strictly of singles and EPs is the future, either. When I say that the Pixies' method here is "the future", I mean that the future is musicians being free to play around with formats and presentation like this. For a long time, a twelve-song album was what officially put a band on the radar. It was a mark of validation. Today, there aren't any rules in the music industry anymore. Every musician--independent ones, at least, like the Pixies--makes their own rules now, more or less. If a band, for whatever reason, doesn't want to put out a long-playing album they don't have to today--and that decision won't keep them off the radar. They can still get widely heard.
Ultimately, I just want to hear the record that the band wants to put out. If the Pixies released a traditional LP three weeks ago instead a 10" EP, I'd have ordered that just as fast. If the Pixies make an LP in the future, I'll be all in. For now, the band wants to do these EPs, so I go along with that. They're gonna be fun to collect. (I haven't seen any statements from the band that an "album" ever existed. We don't know how many songs the band have recorded. For all we know, definitive recordings of several of those new songs listed at BMI may not even exist, yet.)
I don't have any requirements for what makes a "statement" or not. |
Edited by - Jason on 09/19/2013 23:30:38 |
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Discoking
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1120 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 01:28:49
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don't you think they will compile the different eps into one album and then give the album a normal release?
it doesn't make sense to me to limit a new pixies release to 5,000 copies. there must be way more interest than that.
if pixies came out with a new full album today, surely they'd sell a lot more than 5,000 copies, no? or is everything these days in downloads anyway, and are 5,000 physical copies close to what they would have sold, even if it wasn't a limited release? i think not, but i may be wrong.
i even wonder if they can earn back what was invested in recording the album/collection of new songs, by selling it the way they're selling it now.
i guess dividing the whole thing into different eps means they can ask more money for the same batch of songs: you'll pay more for four or five eps than you will for an album. but limited to 5,000 copies? dunno. is that enough?
i assume this is just the first round. the indie round: collecting money from the people who are into vinyl, and/or collect, or don't want to wait to hear the new songs. once this round is over, they'll do another, more commercial round that aims at the rest of the market, for example by releasing the new songs as an album, the normal way (cd, itunes, ...)
 it's educational |
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Sam
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
514 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 01:37:53
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quote:
Originally posted by lucmove
I have a hundred things to say on this topic, so congratulations if you have the patience to read it all. Hey, I read all the posts in the thread!
(fwiw)
________________
"- Thanks!"
Wow you really do have 100s of things to say. Just one question, when you were getting the feeling that FB was doing all theseartistic endeavors purely for commercial gain, did it affect your opinion of the music?
I mean if i thought i was being listening to an artist that was purely motivated by commerce i would immediately switch off. Art > commerce.
Ok another question driven by that question, do you not think if FB had wanted notoriety or hard cash he would have milked the pixies cow 20 yrs earlier, or hell not even break up the band?? Or play pixies songs at gigs. Jesus he blanked numerous interviewers when the topic arose so that he would be viewed apart from that band for many years, and be seen as he should be, as a musical artist on his own terms.
Your post is so way off the mark as to be insulting to someone you claim to admire.
I don't think there is one musical artist you could imagine that is more guided by his own muse than Charles Thompson. Nearly everything that he creates is not that which is expected and obviously is based around what is appealing to him and his muse at that specific time.
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Discoking
* Dog in the Sand *
Belgium
1120 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 01:40:38
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how many people who'd consider picking up "the new pixies album" even know about these new songs? is that news really out there, or is it only a smaller segment that has picked up on that?
i personally believe a normal album with a bit of promotion behind it can reach way more interested people. you can say that ep or single releases can also reach a wide audience, but i still feel albums have a much bigger impact than the little blips new eps and singles make.
(note that i'm not saying what should or shouldn't be done. i'm just thinking out loud here.)
it's educational |
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Sprite
* Dog in the Sand *
1335 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 02:21:24
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quote:
Originally posted by natenate101
Guys, we are in BONUS territory with the Pixies, at least to me. ANYTHING they release, in ANY format will garner my support as they've earned the right to do whatever the hell they want.....and the songs are good. This almost didn't happen at all, and I'm not going to let that notion slip out of my mind. I'll take the Pixies any damn way I can get em. They owe me nothing, and I'm just happy they are again making interesting music with a slightly off-kilter approach, both lyrically and musically. Bonus Time, all the way. Bring on 7 eps, if that's what they wanna do.
I must have been losing a bit of perspective. You are of course 100% correct. |
Edited by - Sprite on 09/20/2013 03:29:56 |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 02:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam
I don't think there is one musical artist you could imagine that is more guided by his own muse than Charles Thompson.
Strummer? I'm not an expert but he looked like quite the honest guy
Denis
Obsidiana Bijoux |
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Sam
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
514 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 03:00:05
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quote:
Originally posted by vilainde
quote:
Originally posted by Sam
I don't think there is one musical artist you could imagine that is more guided by his own muse than Charles Thompson.
Strummer? I'm not an expert but he looked like quite the honest guy
Denis
Obsidiana Bijoux
I'm not a huge clash fan so not sure Denis. Possibly. I'm sure there are a million artists out there that do nothing but follow their own muse entirely but what i meant was that i have never got the impression that anything BF did was purely for monetary gain.
Like how could all the live to 2 track records have been? It was purely work for the love of it, and i think that shows through.
I mean obviously the money helps ALOT but the guy could surely retire now and be set for the rest of his days. |
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lucmove
- FB Fan -
Brazil
116 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 05:56:52
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quote:
Originally posted by natenate101
Guys, we are in BONUS territory with the Pixies, at least to me. ANYTHING they release, in ANY format will garner my support as they've earned the right to do whatever the hell they want.....and the songs are good. This almost didn't happen at all, and I'm not going to let that notion slip out of my mind. I'll take the Pixies any damn way I can get em. They owe me nothing, and I'm just happy they are again making interesting music with a slightly off-kilter approach, both lyrically and musically. Bonus Time, all the way. Bring on 7 eps, if that's what they wanna do.
I find that kind of thinking extremely annoying. I recently read someone say that "Miley Cyrus ain't so bad because at least she is trying to put on a show, unlike hacks like Paris Hilton or the Kardahians."
That is awful. That means the general standards have dropped so low that now we are supposed to let the bad pass for mediocre and the mediocre pass for a gem. That is insidious and quite harmful.
I would never have been a Pixies fan if I just let poor music slide with impunity. I am a Pixies fan because I have very high standards, and I am not changing them.
________________
"- Thanks!" |
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lucmove
- FB Fan -
Brazil
116 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 06:12:53
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
Luc...
Holy shit. Holy fuck... Dude. I skimmed everything after yours but it all kind of washed over..
While I respect that you have read all the posts... oh man.
You've got a bone to pick here that is way beyond anything I would ever expect to read on a basic fan site. I would recommend that you go listen to the Catholics stuff again but what good would that do other than to fan the hard core anti-FB flames that you already have blazing for the world to see. Every single thing you said, I whole-heartedly disagree with.
I don't have a bone to pick, I just saw the Catholics era from that particular point of view for specific reasons that I have exposed. I still think it makes sense, and I am not afraid of being criticized for my point of view.
If "The Man" (as you lot call him) can do whatever the hell he pleases and be automatically immune from criticism because hey, it's only rock'n'roll, I also can believe and express whatever the hell I think because hey, it's only a music fan forum, not a science journal.
FIY, I listen to the Catholics era albums as often as any other Frank Black album, especially because I listened to S/T and TOTY so many many many many times that now I only listen to them once or twice a year, tops. Since I listened to the Catholics albums a lot less in their release time in comparison with S/T and TOTY, I listen to them more often nowadays. I listened to the first Catholics and DITS yesterday, all songs duly enqueued and enjoyed.
________________
"- Thanks!" |
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IBreed
= Cult of Ray =
310 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 06:25:49
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quote:
says who? Their first release was a 20' 8-track record. EP1 is 16' long.
i was waiting for this, thus my making specific mention of the doolittle tour. the pixies have made more statements through albums than EPs. there's an association between the pixies and good albums, jesus, era/genre defining albums.
quote:
True. That doesn't make them "less valid" or "more commercial" or anything. Rock'n'roll artists in the 50s released 7" singles and EPs and albums and I don't see what the problem was.
you're missing my argument. there's nothing inherently wrong with EPs, i've said as much, but the problem arises when the pixies have an ALBUM in the can, and have for a year, only to have it arbitrary chopped up for expressly commercial reasons (and ones that aren't soundly reasoned, i'd offer).
and as some others have said, you can bet your ass this is all coming out as a physical album at the end of next year. Frank retweeted something suggesting as much not too long ago.
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 06:33:12
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quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
and as some others have said, you can bet your ass this is all coming out as a physical album at the end of next year.
and?
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rivum
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
265 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 06:35:59
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quote:
Originally posted by natenate101
Guys, we are in BONUS territory with the Pixies, at least to me. ANYTHING they release, in ANY format will garner my support as they've earned the right to do whatever the hell they want.....and the songs are good. This almost didn't happen at all, and I'm not going to let that notion slip out of my mind. I'll take the Pixies any damn way I can get em. They owe me nothing, and I'm just happy they are again making interesting music with a slightly off-kilter approach, both lyrically and musically. Bonus Time, all the way. Bring on 7 eps, if that's what they wanna do.
this sums up my attitude toward pixies 2.0 quite nicely.
well done.
pixies don't owe me shit. it's up to them to do whatever the hell they want to. they shouldn't be afaid of pissing anyone off. it's not like we're their board of directors or something. |
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IBreed
= Cult of Ray =
310 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 06:38:26
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quote:
Originally posted by vilainde
quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
and as some others have said, you can bet your ass this is all coming out as a physical album at the end of next year.
and?
once they've market researched which songs to include. |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 06:42:38
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that's a lot of work. They should have signed to Warner, they have some guys over there who are paid to do this.
Denis
Obsidiana Bijoux |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 06:53:34
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"Excuse me sir, can I ask you a few questions? Have you heard of a band called the Pixies?" |
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IBreed
= Cult of Ray =
310 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 06:53:37
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quote:
Originally posted by vilainde
that's a lot of work. They should have signed to Warner, they have some guys over there who are paid to do this.
Denis
Obsidiana Bijoux
it was their manager's idea.  |
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IBreed
= Cult of Ray =
310 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 06:54:27
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quote:
Originally posted by vilainde
that's a lot of work. They should have signed to Warner, they have some guys over there who are paid to do this.
Denis
Obsidiana Bijoux
it was their manager's idea. |
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Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =
USA
899 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 07:08:22
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quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Knight
Another Toe is the best song on the EP...my two cents
?!?! what are your favorite pixies songs?
I'm not saying it ranks with my favorite Pixies songs, just that it's as good as anything else on the EP. It has that "automatic writing" feel (which is key to alot of Pixies material), whereas the others sound labored, especially Indie Cindy. Another Toe is a bit overproduced and perhaps stretched out in the arrangement, but it's not even close to the embarrassment that people make it out to be. |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 07:09:26
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quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
it was their manager's idea.
You mean this guy?
Denis
Obsidiana Bijoux |
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IBreed
= Cult of Ray =
310 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 07:17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Knight
quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Knight
Another Toe is the best song on the EP...my two cents
?!?! what are your favorite pixies songs?
I'm not saying it ranks with my favorite Pixies songs, just that it's as good as anything else on the EP. It has that "automatic writing" feel (which is key to alot of Pixies material), whereas the others sound labored, especially Indie Cindy. Another Toe is a bit overproduced and perhaps stretched out in the arrangement, but it's not even close to the embarrassment that people make it out to be.
you might feel indie cindy is labored because of its structure and dropped beats, but frankly, it flows rather effortlessly given its complexities. i'll chalk that up to frank and the band's craft. it's hard to navigate all those pieces into something cohesive and natural. its bizarro genre jumping is EXACLTY in line with classic pixies. like, come on pilgrim pixies.
another toe hangs together, but it's also without surprise. there's a funky chord change or two, but it's nothing outside the realm of the foo fighters. frank's doing a decent alternative song, but then again, almost every alternative band can pull out a decent alternative song. it wouldn't even be an exceptional later day weezer or foo song. its embarrassment is in its utter lack of anything that separates the pixies from the pack. much as i might lament andro queen's lack of substance, even that has a few recognizable quirks that another toe just utterly lacks. one cool bridge does not salvage an otherwise nondescript song.
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IBreed
= Cult of Ray =
310 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 07:19:42
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by the way. it's cool that you like another toe. i don't want to make it seem like i'm jumping on you for digging it. maybe i am. i was just making my own case for why i don't like it. i don't mean for it to be at the expense of your enjoyment or whatever. i only asked about your favorite pixies songs to get an idea as to what it is you look for in a pixies song.
vilainde: boo. |
Edited by - IBreed on 09/20/2013 07:20:52 |
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natenate101
= Cult of Ray =
USA
892 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 07:26:17
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quote:
Originally posted by lucmove
quote:
Originally posted by natenate101
Guys, we are in BONUS territory with the Pixies, at least to me. ANYTHING they release, in ANY format will garner my support as they've earned the right to do whatever the hell they want.....and the songs are good. This almost didn't happen at all, and I'm not going to let that notion slip out of my mind. I'll take the Pixies any damn way I can get em. They owe me nothing, and I'm just happy they are again making interesting music with a slightly off-kilter approach, both lyrically and musically. Bonus Time, all the way. Bring on 7 eps, if that's what they wanna do.
I find that kind of thinking extremely annoying. I recently read someone say that "Miley Cyrus ain't so bad because at least she is trying to put on a show, unlike hacks like Paris Hilton or the Kardahians."
That is awful. That means the general standards have dropped so low that now we are supposed to let the bad pass for mediocre and the mediocre pass for a gem. That is insidious and quite harmful.
I would never have been a Pixies fan if I just let poor music slide with impunity. I am a Pixies fan because I have very high standards, and I am not changing them.
________________
"- Thanks!"
Believe me, I find YOUR viewpoint annoying as well. Some of you are trying too hard to be contrary.
I like the music, so I'm not giving anything a pass. What I am saying is that I'm not concerned about how they release it, or when, just that they do. If the music sucked, I would show them love but not really listen to it much. But that's not the case, I dig the new songs, some more than others. Like I said, I am happy as a pig in shit that they are just together and making new music for me to get into.
It's not that serious. |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
653 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 07:32:28
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So much of this criticism of the band opting to break up THE TOTALITY OF AN EXTENDED SERIES OF RECORDING SESSIONS into a series of short EPs is complete silliness of the highest order.
The ONLY reason folks who came of age from the 1960s through today are used to seeing musical artists release "albums" of a certain length is because of the innovation of the LP, or long-playing 33 & 1/3 RPM record.
Prior to that technological advancement, EVERYTHING that was released was either a one or two-song "single" or an EP (extended play single) featuring between three and five songs depending on their length.
For decades, it was an entirely common practice for artists that simply were not prolific enough to come up with an LP's worth of great tunes to pad those longer releases with "filler" tracks, just to hit that magic number of total minutes as required contractually by their record labels.
Those LPs were not grand artistic statements of any kind. They were essentially compilation albums which grouped together the "singles" they'd recorded during a given time period, mixed in with additional tracks which had often been deemed unworthy of release as a single themselves.
Then, when the technological advent of the CD came along, record labels, realizing that the new format would hold up to 74 minutes of recorded material as opposed to the LPs average of about 36 minutes total, began contractually stipulating that artists HAD to turn in albums that were at least 45 to 60 minutes long, simply so consumers would feel they were "getting their money's worth" for the overpriced CD format.
In other words, in virtually every instance in the evolution of the commercial music business (except for the rare instances when the artists were simply hellbent on creating lengthy, often conceptual albums), the RECORD LABELS were the ones who created the notion of long-form albums and DICTATED such arbitrary standards, solely for financial gain (mostly their own, and rarely the artists').
So, if someone had come along with a small, portable format for recorded music that held three hours worth of songs, the labels would have started pushing for artists to wait until they had that much new music saved up "in the can" before cramming it onto their next three-hour "album."
Nothing/no one says any artist or band is inherently "an album act," other than perhaps the act itself, should they choose to view themselves that way.
The limitless possibilities afforded by the digital download medium coupled with the fact that they are currently not locked into any recording company contracts mean that a group like the Pixies can do just as they please, without answering to anyone other than themselves.
They (along with their manager) have come to the conclusion that only a small number of fans will likely want to purchase their new material on vinyl. Let's say they imagine that number to be 15,000 copies.
So, to make the vinyl releases more desirable and give their fans something to clamor for and be extra happy to score, they limit the pressings to 1/3 of that number. This is fine with me, and makes perfect sense. It's not a money grab. It's a cool and fun marketing idea that echoes countless other such ideas by other artists (musical and otherwise) going back decades.
They make the lossless-quality downloads an unlimited release, because they know that's how most folks will want the songs, and they price them at roughly $1 per song. That's par for today's course, so no weirdness there.
Now, as far as breaking the "album sessions" up into EPs arbitrarily -- um, SAYS WHO?
To my knowledge, no one representing the band has clearly stated that they ever INTENDED to release a full-length LP, rather than a series of EPs.
Some folks have mentioned there are quotes going back to the BOSSANOVA and TROMPE days suggesting the notion of releasing a series of EPs was bandied about even then.
It would not surprise me in the lease to learn that the group went into these recording sessions with NO PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS of how, when or even if those songs would ever see the light of day commercially.
Without anyone to tell them what to do with their new material, they could put it out in a giant lump online, or divvy it up into a series of short EPs, or parse it out one track at a time as $1 downloads over the next decade, or license the songs exclusively to any number of movie and TV soundtracks or commercials.
But the Pixies have always been open about how much they view their commercial released as little pieces of art, where the packaging is a key component of the overall item.
So, to me, the notion that they'd commission their old compatriot Vaughan Oliver to design original packaging for each EP makes perfect sense. Releasing a series of short bursts of studio tracks DOES keep the band's name in the public eye while they REBUILD their fanbase with a new lineup and a new batch of songs. It also somewhat frees them from having the totality of their new material judged all at once (harshly and rudely, as they had to know it would be by many in the rock press) before the tour even begins.
Stretching out the dissemination of the work they did last year with Gil allows them to find their creative footing once more. If the band can stay together and Kim Shattuck does prove to be the right person for more than just the road gig, then they can soon start jamming and possibly writing a new batch of songs for the next round of studio sessions.
I don't know what is so hard for some folks to understand about this business model.
It's shrewd, contemporary and keeps things exciting for the fans over an extended period of time (which is what I'd want as a band member after over 20 years of not having anything new to promote).
Based on what FBF has done with The Bureau, I feel it's probably safe to assume that these tracks will never be compiled together as a vinyl LP (or 2-LP set if length demands), but that at some point far in the future, they would be compiled onto a single CD, as that format is quickly (and sadly) dying out as far as sales go, but still holds a special place in the hearts and living rooms of folks who came of age during the first wave of PixiesMania.
That way, folks can have digital downloads for cheap, or spring for the collectible vinyl EPs if that's their bag, or wait for one long CD.
And by the way, since when did it become some sort of major, embarrassing flop for a band that's been away creatively for 20+ years to return with a release that is not universally proclaimed to be "a classic?"
Jeepers Creepers, Semi-Star...
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 08:10:26
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"It's all one big album"
Don't you think Frank means, my whole career is just one big album. Look at how he's releasing The Catholix box set. It makes sense.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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lucmove
- FB Fan -
Brazil
116 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 08:20:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose Jones
i don't think his musical turns were motivated by money. the guy is in love with music and making music.
Several others said something similar, but I chose the quotation above because it's very short and clear.
Let's begin with the money issue. How many kids does Charles have? I never know (or care), I just know it's a lot. I think it's four or five. That's a lot of food to put on the table and College tuition to pay. Money matters. If you think it doesn't, just send me yours. 
I've long seen Charles as a very serious man who would naturally become a family man, not a forever immature rock'n'roll dude who will just chase music, booze, drugs and pussy for the rest of his life. For someone like that or pretty much anyone who breathes, yes, money matters.
It matters to all of us, including artists. They don't do it for charity or just out of their calling. If there wasn't any money to be made in it, there would be AN AWFUL FUCKING LOT less music in the world. Your calling plays a big part in how you make money, it's what makes work enjoyable or at least tolerable. But you still have to make money, your calling notwithstanding.
That's what ALSO makes the Pixies or Charles great, because the guy took some risk by doing something very out of ordinary when he could be doing... I don't know, love songs for romantic movies or garden variety country music.
But, to be fair, true boldness and creativity was a lot better regarded and rewarded when the Pixies were formed than it is in the sad, shitty times we live now. That's one of the reasons why nobody innovates anymore. So his risk wasn't all that big then. He was in the right path, it just took a very long time to pay off. But it paid off eventually.
Now people here say the Pixies made $65 million. Wow, I had no idea. So there, they got the money. And people here say that the artist doesn't care about money. Oh, yeah? Then why did they have to tour so many dates, playing the same old songs over and over and over and over, to the point that even fans were already bored? How many Doolittle tours do they need for David to get his own house and for Joey to move to a better school district?
Not for money... Please. I'll bet even GG Allin did his shit for money.
It may not seem like that to many people because Charles really has a very peculiar and brilliant style, it's how he stands above the crowd. He probably would hate himself if he succumbed to making very, very ordinary music just for paychecks. I mean, he can't help being extremely distinctive even when he wants to be more popular. His talent will always get in the way, so to speak.
Second part, I said Charles doesn't chase just money. He chases recognition. I say he has a deep ego issue. Now this is a good time for me to reply to fellow forum member Sam:
quote:
Originally posted by Sam
Wow you really do have 100s of things to say. Just one question, when you were getting the feeling that FB was doing all theseartistic endeavors purely for commercial gain, did it affect your opinion of the music?
A little. I already explained exactly how the beginning of the Catholics era didn't quite please me, and I am one of the most vocal detractors of EP1. The Nashville era grew on me, but those albums still are the ones to which I listen less often.
On the other hand, I think Charles can still sound interesting even when he tries to be commercial. I always thought that Bossanova was trying to be commercial, and TLM a lot more so. But they both worked beautifully. That is extremely difficult to pull off.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam
I mean if i thought i was being listening to an artist that was purely motivated by commerce i would immediately switch off. Art > commerce.
I am not so radical. I like a lot of shameless commercial music and I am not ashamed of it. I love the Spice Girls. Seriously. They had some very good songwriters. You may not like the genre, but you gotta admire the truly professional craft put into it. I think Lady Gaga's first album is awesome. But then it's a whole different concept/context/proposal. Context is very important. I wouldn't want to hear Lady Gaga sing Velouria, neither would I want to hear... Wait... No, I think the Pixies covering Bad Romance could actually be very good. Even with Kim Shattuck screaming.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam
Ok another question driven by that question, do you not think if FB had wanted notoriety or hard cash he would have milked the pixies cow 20 yrs earlier, or hell not even break up the band?? Or play pixies songs at gigs.
But FB did break up the band, what are you talking about? And he did try to resume the Pixies earlier, Kim Deal wouldn't play ball. As soon as she bit the bait, then yes, they "milked" the Pixies with a very long tour.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam
Jesus he blanked numerous interviewers when the topic arose so that he would be viewed apart from that band for many years, and be seen as he should be, as a musical artist on his own terms.
Exactly! He was sick of being just the Pixies frontman, and he was sick of watching Kim Deal get so much love while HE was the one responsible for the brilliant songs that placed the Pixies up there in the first place. He shook off his band like a bunch of fleas. He wanted the spotlight all for himself. That's part of my theory, he wanted money AND more individual recognition. He thought that he could pull it off, but he underestimated the weight of the Pixies brand. As soon as he went solo, he dropped off a lot of people's radars, even with two incredibly good solo albums. Meanwhile, Last Splash was a hit. That has to be very frustrating to Charles. I can see him wondering... WHAT THE HELL do I have to do to get proper recognition???
Want more evidence? See the Loud-Quiet-Loud documentary:
1) Joey confirms that Francis was sick of Kim Deal.
2) Charles says "You put four people in the same room for a few years and eventually there is going to be tension." Well, he didn't seem to have that tension with Joey and David. Joey played on several Frank Black albums. He just hated Kim because she was too popular.
3) He is filmed talking on the phone and complaining that he can't convince the world to pay attention to his solo career, because the world only cares about his former band. That's why he got the Pixies back together, and he is still doing it probably because his solo career STILL doesn't get as much attention as anything with the word PIXIES on it. It's unfair, but it's a fact.
4) Before he goes to sleep, he puts on a pair of headphones and repeats some self confidence building mantra (last time I said Stuart Little, but I meant Stuart Smalley; google it). How can someone write such brilliant music and lyrics and even NEED that kind of self-help stuff? It seems he feels that people don't like him enough, or he doesn't like himself enough.
I think I've seen Keith Richards tell similar stories about Mick Jagger: everybody loves the guy, but he still feels inadequate somehow. I often rub shoulders with many unknown, but some brilliant artists where I live, and I have learned to accept that as part of the industry. Some artists can be incredibly insecure inside. They crave the applause like it's oxygen. I now place Charles in that group. Ok, that's who he is, and many artists are like that, too.
More recently, Charles said that Kim Shattuck would be the crazy screamer while he would be the quiet, loved one. He said that. Either he was joking or he really needs to be loved and has come to the point of declaring it in interviews.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam
Your post is so way off the mark as to be insulting to someone you claim to admire.
Refute my theory if you want, but look at the evidence I present.
I am an atheist and I refuse to acknowledge, much less admire any gods or demi gods. I admire human beings, because being a god is just too fucking easy, while being a weak, fragile, mostly oblivious human being on this blue, wet mote is a pretty taxing, scary and noble challenge. I can and I choose to admire people with flaws and challenges and anything in them that inspires me or I choose to perceive as beauty. Perfection is an amusing, but pretty useless concept. If you want to believe that Charles is a bold, unwavering hero that never gives a flying, walking or crawling fuck about anything that anybody thinks, fine, your choice. I believe in a very human Charles who will try and relinquish, scorn and crave, seek and avoid, fail and accomplish, rejoice and despair, secure and aspire, give up and persist, eat and drink, love and hate, live and die. A man who does all the things we do except for those admirable things we don't do.
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"- Thanks!" |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 08:23:04
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quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
Now, as far as breaking the "album sessions" up into EPs arbitrarily -- um, SAYS WHO?
To my knowledge, no one representing the band has clearly stated that they ever INTENDED to release a full-length LP, rather than a series of EPs.
This is a key point. Some people are making big assumptions based on the BMI registry.
When a song is registered with BMI, it merely means that the song has been composed. As far as I know, Frank could write a song today, make a basic demo by himself, and register that under Rice N' Beans (then record it with the band later).
Bottom line: some of those Rice 'n' Beans songs listed on BMI may or may not be in a finished recorded state, as of the present.
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IBreed
= Cult of Ray =
310 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 08:29:19
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peter. a few points.
-necessity is the mother of invention, i agree with that. EP1 is not that. as far as LPs not being artistic, i suppose the beatles passed under your radar entirely? as did every decade since.
-when frank says, to paraphrase, "it's all one big album" and that their manager broached the idea of parcelling out these songs as EPs, i start to question the intent *behind* the songs as much as the intent *of* the songs. granted the pixies are as much a business now as an artistic entity, it's still a bit of a shame from my perspective.
quote:
Stretching out the dissemination of the work they did last year with Gil allows them to find their creative footing once more. If the band can stay together and Kim Shattuck does prove to be the right person for more than just the road gig, then they can soon start jamming and possibly writing a new batch of songs for the next round of studio sessions.
i can't make heads or tails of the logic behind this one. they're buying time, in other words? if so, i don't care to hear work that, inherent to that thinking, is without creative footing while they work on churning out something that's more (?) representative of what they want. the whole laissez faire approach certainly lends credence to that idea, though.
quote:
It's shrewd, contemporary and keeps things exciting for the fans over an extended period of time (which is what I'd want as a band member after over 20 years of not having anything new to promote).
buzz words. you'd spent the better part of your post describing how it's in fact keeping with OLD models. how is that contemporary? shrewd remains to be seen. as far as keeping things exciting, i totally disagree. would doolittle have been more exciting if it were divided up and released over 15 months? billy corgan actually worked this model and deemed it a failure. not the most reliable source, but the pumpkins certainly have a bigger commercial presence than the pixies. |
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IBreed
= Cult of Ray =
310 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 08:31:37
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quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
"It's all one big album"
Don't you think Frank means, my whole career is just one big album. Look at how he's releasing The Catholix box set. It makes sense.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
in the context presented, no. |
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Sam
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
514 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 09:28:12
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quote:
Originally posted by lucmove
[quote]alot of text
All valid reasoning Luc, if i can call you Luc, and i'm sure alot of your points are maybe quite close if not on the mark in a lot of the points you made. This is a great site for bringing out fans differing views and i love being able to converse / interact with people here and get their take on an extraordinary body of work.
The whole spectrum of views are represented from good to bad and indifferent. Its fantastic.
I think its quite interesting that you appreciate the Nashville records a little more than the Catholics stuff, that seems to me to be rare enough round these parts.I love some of Honeycomb, in fact the songs HC and MLIIS are up there with my faves. I will admit gladly that i find interest and satisfaction in most of FBF's work.
I disagree with Bossanova trying to be commercial, yes they wanted success, yes it is epic in scale but it doesnt strike me as designed for the masses.
With regard your spice girls reference, i get what you're saying completely. They probably had some of the finest pop songwriters crafting their bile and it has infectious ear worms all through it. But i have never once stood in line to see them or purchased any related merchandise, audio or otherwise. This is where we disagree, yes the songs have magic and sparkle like radio friendly hits and popular tunes, but i don't feel the music talk to me. It makes no connection to me on a spiritual sense. I'm not gonna get deep but as Lee Mavers once said, you don't dilute music, it comes from the soul.
IMO that means if made properly it can move people and induce empathy and emotion. I get a huge amount of that from FB. From him playing rough acoustic on a tape deck for COP demos or from him playing surf epics with EDF to Frank and the Nashville crew playing all smooth and melodic and chilled. He can do all of it.
The last point i wanted to make is that you obviously love some of the music and you really delve in to what the particular mindest is/was in creation and formulation.
Personally i don't really i don't give the personal situation a lot of thought. You're right, the guy isn't a demi God. I have met him and he's a normal yet extremely talented and likeable dude. No magic, no mirrors just alot of talent and will.
He makes amazing music, i really only like amazing music.
He likes and requires money, as do i.
He tries to be as successful as he can without imo compromising his art. I can recognise that and respect it.
Thats where the relationship ends. I dont know how many kids he has and its none of my business.
In closing, i dont feel EP1 is a crass marketing tool. Its a 4 song release from my favourite band and its so very welcome.
Roll on EP2 quick.
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 09:44:03
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quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
"It's all one big album"
Don't you think Frank means, my whole career is just one big album. Look at how he's releasing The Catholix box set. It makes sense.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
in the context presented, no.
you sure?
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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IBreed
= Cult of Ray =
310 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 09:49:34
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| unless you're about to pull the billgoodman mask off and reveal you're mr. black francis, yeah, i'm not sure why you'd read it another way. |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 10:01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by lucmove
I always thought that Bossanova was trying to be commercial
Not muc time to read everything, but I read THIS. Are you kidding me? Have you ever seen the Velouria vid?
Denis
Obsidiana Bijoux |
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =
USA
653 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 10:33:05
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IBreed,
You seem to traffic a lot in absolutes, which I try (and often fail) to avoid.
That said, I think you're ascribing some viewpoints to me that I do not hold.
When you mention this:
quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
as far as LPs not being artistic, i suppose the beatles passed under your radar entirely? as did every decade since.
then it seems to me that you glossed over this part of my original post:
quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
In other words, in virtually every instance in the evolution of the commercial music business (except for the rare instances when the artists were simply hellbent on creating lengthy, often conceptual albums), the RECORD LABELS were the ones who created the notion of long-form albums and DICTATED such arbitrary standards, solely for financial gain (mostly their own, and rarely the artists'.
The Beatles are a supremely appropriate example of the exception that I have conveniently now put in boldface. There are many others. I was not claiming that the LP format was not an artistic medium, but rather that it was, by and large, an artificial construct which was forced upon recording artists to quickly establish the 12" 33 & 1/3 RPM record as the dominant commercial format.
Some artists loved that idea and embraced it. Others hated the idea, but eventually came around to it out of necessity. Others hated the idea, and never warmed to it/did a great job under that rubric.
TONS of great music and artistic achievements came about via LPs. But there to this day remain bands that DO NOT view lengthy albums as some kind of all-important goal.
Many prefer to release singles or EPs, as their collective mood suits them. Most labels HATE this, for reasons of manufacturing, shipping and promotion costs, and so they actively dissuade bands from going the EP route.
Now that the Pixies have no one but themselves to ask permission of, I am not surprised they have opted for releasing a staggered series of collectible EPs rather than one long album.
Furthermore, when I wrote:
quote:
Originally posted by peter radiatorStretching out the dissemination of the work they did last year with Gil allows them to find their creative footing once more. If the band can stay together and Kim Shattuck does prove to be the right person for more than just the road gig, then they can soon start jamming and possibly writing a new batch of songs for the next round of studio sessions.
I was not in anyway insinuating that they are now in the process of releasing "something that's (less) representative of what they want."
Actually, I was suggesting the complete opposite of that.
I believe they are now in the process of releasing EXACTLY what they want, in EXACTLY the way they feel most comfortable.
My point was merely that if the band as a whole is HOPING that Kim S. gels with them to the point that they feel it's worth bringing her in as a creative collaborator on new material -- and, one can only assume, a new round of studio sessions for possible commercial release -- then staggering the release of these first sessions with Gil Norton makes great sense, as it allows the excitement that comes along with hearing new Pixies studio tracks for the first time to span several months, giving the new lineup time to find its creative footing during that period.
If it all works out and they decide to continue in "recording new music mode" during or after this tour, this staggered release schedule allows them to have a much shorter time in between the unveiling of the last of this batch of EPs, and the release of the next batch of studio recordings.
By dropping a full-length LP/CD of these earlier sessions, they guarantee all the fans will have heard most every new song before they arrive at a show (which I, for one hate -- I'd much rather be introduced to new material onstage before hearing it on record, but that's just me), and that it may take as much as one or two years before the next Pixies release hits their online store/iTunes/etc...
I don't see what's so confusing about all of this.
When you write:
quote:
Originally posted by IBreed
would doolittle have been more exciting if it were divided up and released over 15 months? billy corgan actually worked this model and deemed it a failure. not the most reliable source, but the pumpkins certainly have a bigger commercial presence than the pixies.
I don't know how to respond to that.
I have no idea how DOOLITTLE would have fared had it been released over the course of more than a year as a set of EPs, and neither do you.
There is certainly a chance that it could have been seen as a bizarre novelty, and that marketing device might have propelled the band to far greater heights than they managed on the strength of that one single LP.
Then again, that was long before the internet, back when music distribution and advertising was COMPLETELY different, and so, um, yeah, that's not really any sort of relevant question.
It kind of reads more like a petulant, combative jab.
Bringing Billy Corgan and his sales numbers into the whole thing is a little bit like wondering aloud why FBF doesn't play follow the leader with John Mayer or Kings of Leon as far as career guidance goes, and then offhandedly acknowledging that both acts are widely perceived as being self-absorbed jackasses whose music has little in common with the Pixies'.
In fact, without the Pixies, it is a foregone conclusion there would be no Smashing Pumpkins (or certainly not one that sounds anything like "they" did), so that makes the compare and contrast with Corgan even more specious.
If FBF were to look to the greedy, cutthroat asshole business genius that is Billy Corgan as a role model for "milking a cash cow," he'd have reformed the Pixies around 1997 with three young, anonymous musicians who'd work for cheap for the chance to claim to have been part of a legendary band, paying them $500 a week with no cut of merch, and settling quietly with Joey, David and Kim for full rights to the band's name by buying their stakes out over time.
Thankfully, that's not how he/they roll (much to all our happiness), and Corgan flaps his jaws so much that he's been publicly wrong about more things in life than he's been right. So, um, yeah. That.
Anyhoo, I hope this clarifies my earlier positions.
I appreciate the vigorous discussion!
Now, IBreed, the really important question is, do you know Lucille? Do you think she might be a lesbian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIcz1eQOF7k
~ Peter Radiator
"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder |
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EP2
