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natenate101
= Cult of Ray =

USA
892 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  05:09:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Active Duck

quote:
Originally posted by vilainde

Spoken verses are not exactly new though. I've Been Tired, Bone Machine, Santo, Subbacultcha have spoken parts. Also Threshold Apprehension and The Seus... probably more.



It's not the fact that they're new but more that the tone feels entirely different to me. In Andro Queen they feel much more forced and macho/aggressive in a way that turns me off.

Maybe there are similarities to those parts in the The Seus. I need to go back and listen.

In a way it's one of the only areas in EP1 where I feel like FB is looking back at a list of characteristics that make up a classic pixies song and attempting to tick a box. And in doing so it sounds a bit fakey and forced to my ears.



You mean "in Indy Cindy", right?

I understand what you mean, some of the lyrical approach is a bit forceful. "Make me a Fuckin Beggar!" It's harder to embrace for me than when BF sings, in any of his various styles. I'm not huge on the spoken vocals thing, because I enjoy hearing the man sing but after some listens it all fits in and feels right.

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sdon
= Cult of Ray =

France
786 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  05:22:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I really like the spoken word approach by BF. Sure it existed long ago in Bone Machine and Subbacultcha, with a different "flow"
But what we hear in Indie Cindy (as early as the BF live solo version) and even more in Bagboy has a more aggressive feel, that I would qualify as more mature, because so many bands have developed screaming. What BF does now is both reminiscent of the Fall, but also of some post-rock acts (such as Enablers), and above all to my ears it brings a sense of modernity without trying to sound like bands appealing to teenagers. On Bagboy, it was criticized by some, but I think it's a huge strength of the track, as some slightly mutant DNA in the Pixies metabolism.

However, I think only a few songs will have that kind of spoken word. Greens And Blues, Silver Snail, Classic Masher, and maybe Blue Eyed Hexe, are all properly sung.

I'd like to add that the singing on What Goes Boom verses is very similar to Number 13 Baby, but softer, more "detached".


--
"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)"
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
6221 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  06:15:37  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by vilainde


As said somewhere else, I find it hilarious that we basically got Frank Black songs with a new (great) backing band, and suddenly it's all over the news and the shows are sold out. I'm fine with this.




This.

You are absolutely right.


---------------------------
BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
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Active Duck
~ Abstract Brain ~

United Kingdom
435 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  06:21:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by natenate101
You mean "in Indy Cindy", right?



Yeah, sorry, I meant Indie Cindy.

Listening to Bagboy some more, I actually have no problem with the spoken parts there. I wonder if the spoke bits in Indie Cindy will become less jarring for me when I'm more familiar with it. I hope so.
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theonecontender
= Cult of Ray =

Canada
565 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  06:23:50  Show Profile  Visit theonecontender's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Champ

Anyone who thinks that this EP is overproduced should probably realize that Doolittle, by the same standards, is over produced, and Bossanova, and everything Gill Norton does. To call this over produced is classic snobbery and is moronic. Just enjoy the damn audio that can only exist by utilizing a studio properly.

It truly sounds great. The subtle guitar tones and layering really make these songs come to life.



'Classic snobbery and moronic'. Nice. I tend to prefer Catholics style raw recordings over layers and layers of tracks. It helps the strength of the songwriting stand on it's own two feet, and emphasizes the passion and intensity of rock and roll music, imo.

Now I'm going to get a ham sandwich for lunch.. I could be a snob and go for the chicken breast, but I'm in a moronic kind of mood.

1c
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =

Canada
736 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  06:41:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by theonecontender

quote:
Originally posted by The Champ

Anyone who thinks that this EP is overproduced should probably realize that Doolittle, by the same standards, is over produced, and Bossanova, and everything Gill Norton does. To call this over produced is classic snobbery and is moronic. Just enjoy the damn audio that can only exist by utilizing a studio properly.

It truly sounds great. The subtle guitar tones and layering really make these songs come to life.



'Classic snobbery and moronic'. Nice. I tend to prefer Catholics style raw recordings over layers and layers of tracks. It helps the strength of the songwriting stand on it's own two feet, and emphasizes the passion and intensity of rock and roll music, imo.

Now I'm going to get a ham sandwich for lunch.. I could be a snob and go for the chicken breast, but I'm in a moronic kind of mood.

1c



Don't forget your low fat, sugar free latte from Starbucks.
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3910 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  09:36:26  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Active Duck

Pot, I'm glad for the energy you bring with you to this forum but you sure have a unique ability to bring everyone down. I realise I'm only adding to it but too many discussions on this forum swing away from the subject and get dragged into the gravity of your bad vibes.




You are the one with the bad vibes. Whatever. Dearie me I don't like Frank Black's latest release, you must be getting bad vibes confused with just not liking something.

I post a lot of interesting shit here, I share music, my own art, and I say interesting and funny things. So I also get drunk occasionally and go a bit raj. I apologise. I'll try harder in future. What are you my fucking wife? If that's what you call bad vibes then you are probably a negative person yourself. Also a boring one if you all you can do is stir shit back up rather than just letting it lie.
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3910 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  09:42:34  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Discoking
semantics, schmemantics.

i think you're a dramatic crybaby.
nobody is telling anyone to like or dislike the new tracks, no matter what name they're released under.




I think you are all a bunch of gays. What is this Primary 7? You smell, I'm going to tell. Pathetic children. I can see I might as well take the evening off rather than expect some serious grown up banter.
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =

United Kingdom
871 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  10:06:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was on the road for 3 hours yesterday so played the ep on repeat for whole time.

I was trying very hard to enjoy the music being a long time fan (going back to 87).........but it's not really doing it for me so far.

Andro Queen is pretty forgettable b side material. Another Toe is paint by numbers radio friendly pop.

However I am enjoying Indie Cindy but certainly not grade A material.

I do think Bag Boy is excellent though and stands up well against the original Pixies material.




The humble apple
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1301 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  10:15:55  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I keep reading about the overproduction of the songs. I don't hear any overproduction beyond what was done on Boss and Trompe. What I DO hear though, and probably is my only gripe, is that The Loudness Wars have claimed another victim. The tracs are smashed and limited and very clipped. Always a bummer to hear, but almost all rock sounds that way these days. I'm waiting for the round of remasters that come flossing out in 10 years stripping back all the heavy compression and limiting smothering the albums of the last 10 years.



Ayerigvlagabriga-Raraaaargh!-Rumbahl-Jumbahl!
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =

Canada
736 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  10:33:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage

I keep reading about the overproduction of the songs. I don't hear any overproduction beyond what was done on Boss and Trompe. What I DO hear though, and probably is my only gripe, is that The Loudness Wars have claimed another victim. The tracs are smashed and limited and very clipped. Always a bummer to hear, but almost all rock sounds that way these days. I'm waiting for the round of remasters that come flossing out in 10 years stripping back all the heavy compression and limiting smothering the albums of the last 10 years.



Ayerigvlagabriga-Raraaaargh!-Rumbahl-Jumbahl!



I don't know what you mean by clipped. I think what people are referring to is the heavy amount of reverb on the tracks, making them harder to be distinguished from each other. I personally like that effect, and reminds me a lot of Echo and the Bs Ocean rain; one of the best sounding recordings I have ever heard.
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velvety
= Cult of Ray =

Portugal
536 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  10:41:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have grown very fond of 'Andro Queen' with repeated spins. Don't see it as forgettable at all. This could easily be a 'Havalina'-type song, simple and beautiful. An album track, if you will. And from what Frank has said in that interview, there's something going on with the lyrics, but I'm too lasy to decode it.

In a 4-song EP, does it stand out? Maybe not, don't care. Starting to love it anyway. They recorded something like 22 songs. Not all of them have to push every button right away, like Bagboy tries to do (successfully, IMO).
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1301 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  10:42:51  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yeah, the reverb and stuff - all production values and I'm on board. I'm talking about the post-production. I could get really technical and explain the clipping and lack of dynamic range but this really isn't the forum for that. If you're interested just look up loudness wars and the tech behind it and you'll find out way more than anyone who doesn't record music should care to know. It will explain digital clipping, what causes it, and what to listen for. These things typically happen after the album is produced in the mastering phase.

That said, if you CAN'T hear what I'm talking about, I would suggest you not go looking for it. Once you hear it, you can't unhear it. Further, you'll start hearing it in everything and it will really annoy you. Ignorance is probably bliss in this case.

EDIT: Although the range is limited, you can barely notice any overbaked clipping in Andro due to the inherently more subtle arrangement. The other songs however, practically sizzle with it. Not that every other modern rock bands' stuff doesn't as well.



Ayerigvlagabriga-Raraaaargh!-Rumbahl-Jumbahl!

Edited by - johnnyribcage on 09/05/2013 11:30:34
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velvety
= Cult of Ray =

Portugal
536 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  10:51:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage



That said, if you CAN'T hear what I'm talking about, I would suggest you not go looking for it. Once you hear it, you can't unhear it. Further, you'll start hearing it in everything and it will really annoy you. Ignorance is probably bliss in this case.



Ayerigvlagabriga-Raraaaargh!-Rumbahl-Jumbahl!



Ehehe, that reads like a horror movie pitch.
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natenate101
= Cult of Ray =

USA
892 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  10:55:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by velvety

Have grown very fond of 'Andro Queen' with repeated spins. Don't see it as forgettable at all. This could easily be a 'Havalina'-type song, simple and beautiful. An album track, if you will. And from what Frank has said in that interview, there's something going on with the lyrics, but I'm too lasy to decode it.

In a 4-song EP, does it stand out? Maybe not, don't care. Starting to love it anyway. They recorded something like 22 songs. Not all of them have to push every button right away, like Bagboy tries to do (successfully, IMO).



I can see the Havalina similarity in terms of tone. It would be a great change of pace track in the middle of a rockin album. On its own, it's solid and a new side of Pixies.

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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1301 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  10:58:51  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by velvety

quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage



That said, if you CAN'T hear what I'm talking about, I would suggest you not go looking for it. Once you hear it, you can't unhear it. Further, you'll start hearing it in everything and it will really annoy you. Ignorance is probably bliss in this case.



Ayerigvlagabriga-Raraaaargh!-Rumbahl-Jumbahl!





Ehehe, that reads like a horror movie pitch.



Haha, no doubt. Though... The Loudness Wars are scarier than any horror movies I've seen... *insert Psycho ree ree ree ree sound*



Ayerigvlagabriga-Raraaaargh!-Rumbahl-Jumbahl!
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1301 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  12:40:01  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Andro Queen is hands down my favorite of the 4. For now anyway. Really cool track.



Ayerigvlagabriga-Raraaaargh!-Rumbahl-Jumbahl!
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Classic Masher
- FB Fan -

146 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  15:55:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lucmove

[quote]Originally posted by The Champ

Anyone who thinks that this EP is overproduced should probably realize that Doolittle, by the same standards, is over produced, and Bossanova, and everything Gill Norton does. To call this over produced is classic snobbery and is moronic. Just enjoy the damn audio that can only exist by utilizing a studio properly.

It truly sounds great. The subtle guitar tones and layering really make these songs come to life.

I think Doolittle is nothing compared to Bossanova (a theremin? really?) and Trompe Le Monde, and even less compared to the yellow album and Teenager of the Year.

And I love that stuff. I think it's such an enrichening experience. It emphasizes Charles' genius, all the subtleties spring up to life and full color.

TOTY is a merciless sprawl. It opens with two brilliant straight punches to the chin, then travels forward into the future, counts the stars with Jean Marie, extolls the Three Stooges, an aqueduct, a shopping mall, an abstract plain, Mars, a freak show, the citizen's band, Sasquatch, noise makers, lots more, and ends with a bang. Several books worth of lyrics, lots of razor sharp guitars, sax, keyboards, percussion, don't know what else, amounting to no less than 23 unforgettable tracks. That is one album that put most of the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame to shame and must have made a bunch of hacks stay indoors for a couple of weeks until their embarrassment subsided.

Oddballs is another album that I really love. Andro Queen reminds me of Man of Steel, by the way.

It took me a while to stomach the Catholics era. Great songs, but too raw.

________________
"- Thanks!"



Glad to know I'm not the only one here who felt like the Catholics were missing the richer production of the Pixies and early FB. The Catholics are second to least favorite era for Charles/Frank/Black Francis (the first being his alt-country FB solo albums).

"Mixed messages from Sir Naff, please authenticate..."
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Niue
7443 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  22:13:03  Show Profile  Visit vilainde's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Have you heard the Live at Melkweg released last year? The band on it is simply amazing.

Denis


Obsidiana Bijoux
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lucmove
- FB Fan -

Brazil
116 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  22:55:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
...
What I DO hear though, and probably is my only gripe, is that The Loudness Wars have claimed another victim.



The Loudness Wars, thank you.

I know what that is, and it's exactly what I felt when I heard the EP, I just didn't come up with the adequate way of describing it. That's it, The Loudness Wars have claimed another victim.

I hope this EP has just brought us the "least likely to please" tracks as a blatant test, including experimenting with the sound engineering, and they rectify it in the next EPs.

________________
"- Thanks!"
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Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =

USA
899 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  23:32:51  Show Profile  Visit Chris Knight's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The mastering sounds fine for a modern rock recording...I've heard far worse. Well, Another Toe in the Ocean sounds kinda blown out, but I think that's what they were going for.
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =

United Kingdom
871 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2013 :  23:59:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I've slept on it since my post yesterday. Had another listen to the ep in case I'd missed something but sadly I'm enjoying it less on each listen. Just read the Pitchfork review which is scathing but i do understand why the reviewer is feeling 'wounded'. At the end of the day, this music has been released under the Pixies heading (not FB&C, not BF, not Grand Duchy). Therefore it is inevitable (and right) that direct comparisons will be made with the original albums. This ep is a pale imitation with mediocre song writing and so so production. I'll probably keep Indie Cindy on my iphone + Bag boy but the others will be binned and I doubt will be listened to again. Another Toe is particularly awful.

The Pixies were one of my favourite bands during my University years and I was really sad when they broke up in 1991 although the break up did deliver two amazing albums in Self Titled and TOTY. Unless the proposed new Pixies album includes better material, I'm going to wish they hadn't recorded new music.

Having read through this thread I am surprised that the majority of posters appear to love the EP. I'm hoping that there hasn't been an outbreak of sycophancy........





The humble apple
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =

Canada
736 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  03:15:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am pretty sure if Pixies released a characteristic impersonation of their work, with similar authenticity as "motherbanger" by Chris Morris, this reviewer would be fawning over how amazing it is.

I don't mind them making music that feels natural, rather than being totally contrived. Look at that HORRENDOUS NIN release, whatever it is called. Thank God it isn't that.
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natenate101
= Cult of Ray =

USA
892 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  03:35:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BF's response to a tweet referencing the pitchfork review," I don't know what they wrote but its a critic's job to critique. I'm just doin godz work...". Haha.

Review is just silly. Papa Roach? Haha, come on. It sounds like Pixies to me, and I just plain like the songs. More please.
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1301 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  06:11:41  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey, Led Zeppelin didn't write songs everyone liked. They left that to the Bee Gees.



Ayerigvlagabriga-Raraaaargh!-Rumbahl-Jumbahl!
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Sprite
* Dog in the Sand *

1335 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  06:28:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

quote:

Having read through this thread I am surprised that the majority of posters appear to love the EP. I'm hoping that there hasn't been an outbreak of sycophancy........



There’s been plenty of poor reaction on this forum to Frank albums before. Remember the posts on SMYT, Honeycomb, Grand Duchy? Put up a thread saying Cult of Ray is magnificent and see what happens. Its fair to assume the vast majority of posters here have pretty sensitive calibration settings when it comes to Frank’s music.

If you think TOTY was the last amazing album from BF then I am not surprised you are not crazy about the EP. Most professional music critcs probably haven't heard beyond the Orange album.

I am not nuts about every BF release but I do like the new songs
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =

United Kingdom
871 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  07:24:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sprite


quote:

Having read through this thread I am surprised that the majority of posters appear to love the EP. I'm hoping that there hasn't been an outbreak of sycophancy........



There’s been plenty of poor reaction on this forum to Frank albums before. Remember the posts on SMYT, Honeycomb, Grand Duchy? Put up a thread saying Cult of Ray is magnificent and see what happens. Its fair to assume the vast majority of posters here have pretty sensitive calibration settings when it comes to Frank’s music.

If you think TOTY was the last amazing album from BF then I am not surprised you are not crazy about the EP. Most professional music critcs probably haven't heard beyond the Orange album.

I am not nuts about every BF release but I do like the new songs




I have more or less every piece of BF musical output in my collection. The original Pixies releases and first two solo records are masterpieces. Very few artists can produce a consistent body of work like that. I actually really like Cult Of Ray although it does have a couple of poor songs on it. From then on, I've only enjoyed a few songs per album with perhaps the exception of Bluefinger which is a very decent record.

I've been quite relaxed about the albums I've not enjoyed at all like Honeycomb or FMRM. It would be unreasonable to expect consistent epic output from an artist.

I'm simply struggling with this new EP under the banner of 'Pixies'. BF is the singer songwriter and he can obviously do as he wishes. In my opinion this new batch of songs is not good enough when compared to the historical Pixies output, (notwithstanding Bag Boy and maybe Indie Cindy)

I hope everyone on this forum would be content with healthy debate even if there are a few dissenters like me.

**edit** at least the new releases have got me posting again after 3 or 4 years away!


The humble apple

Edited by - bedrock_barney on 09/06/2013 07:28:37
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sdon
= Cult of Ray =

France
786 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  07:29:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well said

--
"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)"
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3910 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  07:38:23  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It just feels like any of the songs Frank has written in the last 10 years could have ended up being released under the banner of new Pixies tunes. It just so happened that it took this long, and these are the current songs just written, which happen to be not his best work IMO. These are not good enough to be called Pixies, but I suppose it's going to be difficult to also write something original or different following a steady output of new material over the past 25 years culminating in some 300+ songs I would estimate.

Has anyone ever counted the total number of songs Frank has ever written?


Edited by - pot on 09/06/2013 07:39:03
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Niue
7443 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  07:45:19  Show Profile  Visit vilainde's Homepage  Reply with Quote
361 not counting the unreleased Pixies tracks.

But I could be wrong.


Denis


Obsidiana Bijoux

Edited by - vilainde on 09/06/2013 07:47:13
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kotvana
- FB Fan -

Israel
102 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  07:55:35  Show Profile  Visit kotvana's Homepage  Click to see kotvana's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
GR8 4 songs. I hear them in my mind all day!
BAGBOY - was lame, cause it was forced.
Frank Black is the greatest songwriter ever lived and he keeps evolving. These songs are much more complex than Pixies songs, and they do lack the intense energy of the Pixies, and the production is way too 'heavy', but u can still enjoy that genius songwriting, and somehow FB is letting himself be Pixies-like, which he avoided intentionally for many many years, which is GR8!

frank blak/saved my life
visit me! http://kotvana.googlepages.com
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Niue
7443 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  08:01:09  Show Profile  Visit vilainde's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bedrock_barney
**edit** at least the new releases have got me posting again after 3 or 4 years away!



Indeed! I'm glad to see you back here.
Now I wonder what Homers thinks about it...


Denis


Obsidiana Bijoux
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1301 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  09:54:20  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kotvana

BAGBOY - was lame, cause it was forced..

These songs are much more complex than Pixies songs



I too thought Bagboy felt a little forced. The dreaded "fakey" effect, in other words. These songs sound far more natural and organic.

As for them being much more complex, I'm not so sure. They are more complex than the early Pixies, but Trompe had some really layered, highly arranged stuff on it. From a musicianship and performance standpoint, Trompe was a huge leap technically from everything before it. I hear a lot of the same experimentation, sonic exploration, and effects usage evident on Trompe on these new songs. Hence why I said it sounds like they picked up where they left off. Not that they actually did or were even trying to, that's just my humble, completely insignificant opinion.

I happen to love Trompe btw and for some reason many detractors (not you, just making a general observation) seem to be comparing this new stuff to Surfer and Doolittle. Which is somewhat akin to comparing Magical Mystery Tour to Please Please Me and With the Beatles. The Pixies, now that they're truely back, can't be expected to keep writing She Loves You well into their 40s.



Ayerigvlagabriga-Raraaaargh!-Rumbahl-Jumbahl!
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <

Iceland
3910 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  10:13:45  Show Profile  Visit pot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage They are more complex than the early Pixies,



lol
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Sprite
* Dog in the Sand *

1335 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2013 :  10:35:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bedrock_barney


I hope everyone on this forum would be content with healthy debate even if there are a few dissenters like me.



Of course. Keeps the place nice and lively!

Edited by - Sprite on 09/06/2013 10:36:09
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