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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
 Posted - 12/23/2012 : 02:06:34
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| You didnt miss anything, it was an example among others (actually more like a joke), he's probably not really hanging out with them (like having fun in a pool or playing video games drunk), but there are a lot of hints here and there that they know each other (Frank and EDF did a part of the 2006 tour with them) though Ghrol allways wants anyway to be friend with famous older rock people (lemmy, mc cartney, etc...) or very respected (Bob Mould...). In the case of FB there was this anecdote he was recording the song "enough space" with Gil Norton and there he met FB there for the first time, and asked if he wanted to sing on it. FB replied "no, it's good enough like that and I dont want to scream because I need my voice for my own recordings" then Ghrol was like super happy because Mister Frank Black had said his song was "good enough". Usual Dave Ghrol fanboy stuff. It's true that it's one of the not-too-stinky Foo Fighter songs. But for FB enough space must be like "yeah, whatever..." isnt it? (and i dont mean the united states of whatever, that he must really like, if i listen to I send away!!!) |
Edited by - Grotesque on 12/23/2012 20:34:33 |
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The New Bolero
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2012 : 13:09:35
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| Ok, thanks for the update. So just to clarify, when you say FB's been "hanging out" with Foo Fighters, you're not talking about anything that happened this decade. Or the previous one. More like '96 or '97. Wasn't Frank on a Wallflowers album around that same time? While I have nothing really against Dylan's kid's band, I'd say that's the more damning reference, Grotesque. If we're going to be scrutinizing FB's 90s associations, that is. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2012 : 06:29:38
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on my new years resolution list is to detest Dave Ghrol less
 green star member since 2006. smb? |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2012 : 08:47:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
I don't take those 'trading' comments literally. Frank generally brings more to a song/style than its originator (maybe not in Reed's case). He freely admits he's a massive fanboy and emulates in his songs. No big deal. He's no music snob. He liked Cars for chrissakes.
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Ed is the hoo hoo
Ok, THAT's the point... Who is he a fan of nowadays? Miles Davies? I doubt he can use that influence for his songwriting... Could he be thrilled by the guys he's hanging out with, like Art Brut or the foo fighters... comon that's the degree zero of songrwriting! Frank needs fuel! If pop music is all shit he cant really write... Well that's my theory. See for example, around 90 he was really into They Might Be Giants, and they where actually making some really good record... so you got FB trying to beat them like Brian Wilson was trying to beat the beatles. Obviously, trying to beat the foo fighter or Placebo wont help him to make a new step. He's like a champion without a challenger!
I think your point is pure wacky, but if you read Frank's Twitter, he posts about music that he's into every now and then. I keep meaning to hear that Baxter Drury album that he's raved about on Twitter about twenty times.
In any case, Frank's a seasoned, professional songwriter. It's what he does. He probably doesn't need Placebo to make a new album first before he can figure out how to write new songs. |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2012 : 07:42:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason
I think your point is pure wacky, but if you read Frank's Twitter, he posts about music that he's into every now and then. I keep meaning to hear that Baxter Drury album that he's raved about on Twitter about twenty times.
In any case, Frank's a seasoned, professional songwriter. It's what he does. He probably doesn't need Placebo to make a new album first before he can figure out how to write new songs.
Oh yeah ? That's good news then, proper tasty pop... I dont think that can be thrilling for anyone who ever listened to the Kinks, but english pop is always a good influence for FB (The first two solo albums sounded a bit like britpop, didnt they?). The other wacky theory i have about his songwriting is that he's more of a pop songwriter, he cant rock like the stooges or the rollings stones (pure energy, one riff is enough...), he rocks more like the beatles or the kinks, or even the buzzcocks (lots of parts, sophistacated and twisted catchy stuff but high energy as well when it's needed). When he wants to be a stooge or a rolling stone (mainly with the catholics) it might not work as perfectly and can become just a little bit boring. Personaly i cant take 6 minutes of i want rock'n'roll and i skip blast off after the first 2 minutes, as i know nothing new will occur after that supercool riff, just a loooooong guitar solo. Ok on the other hand you had some the almost-one-riff very good songs Planet of Sound and Subbacultcha but new things actually happend during those songs, it's not just "let the band jam", as the pixies cant jam anyway... It would be very interesting to point out why subbacultcha and planet of sound are so good and I want rock'n'roll so boring... i mean the riff is just as good, but something in the chemistry is wrong, like too much fuel in the motor and not much oil left... So... any british influence is very much welcome indeed. (anticipating the bashing: yeah i know the RS are british, just talking about the sound. You can have macho women or nice policemen... even french reggae!) |
Edited by - Grotesque on 12/26/2012 15:59:49 |
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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
2463 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2012 : 08:50:41
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| The Baxter Dury album is great. Saw him support Pulp last year. |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2013 : 05:57:26
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I love guitar solos, Rich has some really amazing ones in 03 during Whiskey In Your Shoes. I would've loved a six minute I Want Rock-n-Roll in a live setting, with Rich shredding, the band driving the song faster and faster, with more whoo-ooh-oohs being sung. If anything, the song ends too soon in concert. The studio version is phenomenal, the band sounds like they're melting the studio.
While the Pixies don't jam, I do like when they extend Vamos and the end of Gigantic, I think it would be good if they did that more often, with other songs; it would certainly bring a new level of excitement to their live shows. |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2013 : 11:42:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arm Arm Arm
I love guitar solos, Rich has some really amazing ones in 03 during Whiskey In Your Shoes. I would've loved a six minute I Want Rock-n-Roll in a live setting, with Rich shredding, the band driving the song faster and faster, with more whoo-ooh-oohs being sung. If anything, the song ends too soon in concert. The studio version is phenomenal, the band sounds like they're melting the studio.
Yeah that's why you must be a true catholics fan and i'm not. I don't really care about "the band", i just care about how the arrangements can serve Charles's songwriting. When Lyle Workman plays a crazy short solo on a TOTY song i say it's perfect (the same goes, of course, for Joey, a guy that always knows when it is too much). Sometimes the catholics other guitarists play a bit like jay mascis, but mascis does that on his own songs so it's ok. When mascis plays his solos on other songs it's this never ending carpet of notes. |
Edited by - Grotesque on 01/02/2013 11:46:58 |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2013 : 15:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque
I don't really care about "the band", i just care about how the arrangements can serve Charles's songwriting.
That's a really smart comment.
I'm sure he loved roughing it in a band like the Catholics. It must have given him that rock n roll experience that Pixies never could. But you're absolutely right, it's all about his songwriting ethos.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2013 : 18:32:39
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For me, from the Pixies on, it's all one amazingly genius songwriter's work; I enjoy all of the different iterations (though maybe not the country stuff, Honeycomb, etc.) and seeing how his collaborators affect his creations. I love the Catholics but I also love the Pixies. With some of the former, it took a while for me to appreciate what he was doing, but when I did, I came to really love those albums.
What's interesting to me, is that he's been a part of two bands, whose raison d'etre is the same, but whose style is different. While Frank embraced a more traditional rock and country/blues type styling, his songs continued being unique. True Blue is a good example, the tasteful playing sounds like traditional folkly ballad song, but the last thirty seconds it transcends itself, the song builds and builds and stops. It's beautiful, it's amazing and it's succinct.
The way the organ sounds on The Swimmer, heck, the way all the instruments blend makes it feel like the song, like the subject itself is heading underwater. Then you add in the lyrical touches..."ballyoos & tritons", and the song is moody genius.
I love the Catholics because I think that Frank was able to create great songs with them, yes, his songs, but there's so many wonderful details they supplied and for most of their time together...in one take! St. Francis is an amazingly beautiful work; it's a joy hearing all of those instruments merging together, supporting Frank's voice.
I think the soloing on the Catholics records serve Frank's songwriting but I understand it's not a style that you particularly enjoy. The outro of I Need Peace is amazing. Is a bit longer than some of Frank's previous songs. I'd have to actually listen and compare but for the sake of this discussion, I'll just say yes. But the length of the solo is perfect, the way it's designed is amazing, buliding to a great climax. Another great Lyle moment. I referenced this before, but Rich's solo at the end of I Want Rock and Roll feels like the studio is melting, it's so good.
So yes, I do care about the band, because I think they were amazing players who augmented Frank's songwriting, while also being a phenomenal live band. But I also love Frank's prior albums and later works as well.
cheers |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1019 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2013 : 21:19:21
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| Not to be a downer, but I thought the solos were far and wide the worst thing about the catholics (second being the backing vocals). The solos sound amatuerish and pub-rock in a way that does a great diservice to the songwriting IMO. This is moreso a critique of the lead guitar/solos on FB&TC and Pistolero than Dog in the Sand/Black Letter Days which are much more refined. |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2013 : 08:07:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque
When mascis plays his solos on other songs it's this never ending carpet of notes.
Usually I like when someone improvises/adds something to a liver performance, but I didn't care for Mascis' playing on Tame, I thought it sucked the energy from the song and turned the driving rhythm of the song into a bit of a slog. |
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2013 : 14:23:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Arm Arm Arm
quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque
When mascis plays his solos on other songs it's this never ending carpet of notes.
Usually I like when someone improvises/adds something to a liver performance, but I didn't care for Mascis' playing on Tame, I thought it sucked the energy from the song and turned the driving rhythm of the song into a bit of a slog.
It's funny because Mascis is a HUGE fan of the Birthday Party, and Tame is really like a birthday party song (i guess that's why he choose the song) but he cant help being j mascis and not Roland S Howard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaWn0qcRYFA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKv1JPq3q5w&playnext=1&list=PL9E86775DC192FC79&feature=results_video |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2013 : 20:05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Grotesque
Tame is really like a birthday party song
Tame is like a re-work of Joe Jackson's Mad At You. Same song subject, same screamed vowel chorus. And the baseline is reminiscent of Planet of Sound. Tame and Planet of Sound are basically the same song, no?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MxhkaoyNfA
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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The Maharal
= Cult of Ray =
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2013 : 05:39:09
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| I can see similarities but PoS distinguishes itself with that amazing guitar solo and the cool space-y vocals. Both classics to my ear. |
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Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =
USA
899 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2013 : 07:39:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Brank_Flack
Not to be a downer, but I thought the solos were far and wide the worst thing about the catholics (second being the backing vocals). The solos sound amatuerish and pub-rock in a way that does a great diservice to the songwriting IMO. This is moreso a critique of the lead guitar/solos on FB&TC and Pistolero than Dog in the Sand/Black Letter Days which are much more refined.
Actually I feel like the leadwork on the first Catholics album is some of the best on any album Charles has made, including Pixies. It sounds like Lyle Workman intuitively understood the chord structures and the harmonic possibilities therein.
I do agree that the backing vocals could be kinda rough though...Pistolero in particular. |
Edited by - Chris Knight on 01/04/2013 07:41:21 |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2013 : 10:46:38
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I just listened to Blast-Off for the first time in a long time and I think I enjoy the song even more now than before; the progression from Frank's mellow intro to him wailing "Beckett's pants!" towards the end of the song is fantastic. The song builds and builds, before reaching the soloing that brings it to a great finish. I think the only thing I don't care for is it being the first track on the album, I think it would've been good right before Dog in the Sand, but I respect Frank and the Catholics for leading off with it; quite an unconventional opening to their best album.
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Grotesque
= Cult of Ray =
France
777 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2013 : 14:05:28
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| Wow great i thought that picky geek vibe was gone forever from this forum. |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2013 : 10:03:57
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It's a forum dedicated to a somewhat obscure genius musician, I can't believe it has a "picky geek vibe!"
Zut alors! |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2013 : 11:16:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Maharal
I can see similarities but PoS distinguishes itself with that amazing guitar solo and the cool space-y vocals. Both classics to my ear.
I love them both. Wasn't meaning to sound 'picky'.
They're obviously quite different in vibe. I meant maybe there was something about Mad At You that inspired him and while working on his guitar he came up with the structures for Tame and Planet of Sound.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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The Maharal
= Cult of Ray =
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2013 : 12:24:07
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Oh lordy, I thought you were dismissing them! My apologies for the misunderstanding.
I enjoyed the Mad At You song, don't think I encountered Joe Jackson before. |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2013 : 14:21:55
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I don't hear the connection between Tame and Planet. The first one is an amazing amazing song, the second one is even better and part of the most amazing opening three songs on any album Frank has done. Trompe has the perfect opening.
Anyway, I just enjoy reading peoples' thoughts on the music, while I may not agree or feel the same way, the discussions are usually interesting.
Thanks for sharing the Roland Howard links, Grotesque, it didn't really connect with me. Merci anyway!
cheers
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2013 : 22:15:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Brank_Flack
Not to be a downer, but I thought the solos were far and wide the worst thing about the catholics (second being the backing vocals). The solos sound amatuerish and pub-rock in a way that does a great diservice to the songwriting IMO. This is moreso a critique of the lead guitar/solos on FB&TC and Pistolero than Dog in the Sand/Black Letter Days which are much more refined.
Actually I feel like the leadwork on the first Catholics album is some of the best on any album Charles has made, including Pixies. It sounds like Lyle Workman intuitively understood the chord structures and the harmonic possibilities therein.
I do agree that the backing vocals could be kinda rough though...Pistolero in particular.
Chris Knight is right. Lyle's work on the Catholics s/t is stunning. On the other side I don't like at all what Rich did on Pistolero, it's in big part why I don't like the record. Took me time to eventually appreciate Rich's work on the following albums.
Denis
Obsidiana Bijoux |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2013 : 01:53:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arm Arm Arm
I don't hear the connection between Tame and Planet.
That surprises me. How about the exact same overall verse-chorus structure or the exact same screamed vowel chorus? I only pointed out the similarities to support my crackpot theory that they were written at the same time and were both inspired by the song Mad At You (comments welcome). I don't mind that they're structurally similar. They still sound utterly unique and compelling.
Charles performed Planet during the Doolittle tour, just him on his guitar. It's a great version (thanks for the vid fbc).
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2013 : 15:48:31
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I listened to them back to back but aside from the similar verse/chorus structure, soft to loud, etc. they sound quite different to me.
I understand what you're saying but Planet has more of a fuller and scattershot sound to my ears. Joey is doing some weird things on his guitar during the verses. While both are driving rock songs, Tame always sounded more streamlined, it felt like the sole purpose of the verse was to reach the chorus. (I understand that could be said of every song...) Planet felt more about the journey occurring in the verses.
The fantastic breathless bridge in Tame is a respite, before the final explosive chorus, whle Planet has an the amazing Joey solo, full of character. As far as I can tell, every live version of Tame is played exactly as the record, while Frank sometimes extends the intro and second verse instrumentally before singing, making it more closely match the journey of the character in the song.
I agree though, they are both "unique and compelling." I love both songs, but Planet is one of my all time favorites they ever recorded!
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Kim Recent Interview.
