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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
 Posted - 06/02/2007 : 23:36:41
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My interest in Stephen Hawking has been rekindled since the Creation of this topic. awestruck, I strongly recommend you read about him, as well as learn how to indent a paragraph. Aren't you an English major or something?
quote:
One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics... In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary.
This may pertain to K's quote:
the whole "how can god exist when horrible things happen to innocents" issue?
Why the fuck does one of the most brilliant theoretical physicists ever to grace this planet only has the means to communicate with a twitch in his right cheek.
non-non non-non non egregious |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 23:37:48
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
So nobody wants to tackle the whole "how can god exist when horrible things happen to innocents" issue?
I got some heaven in my head
 someone else can start this discussion because I am not starting anything this time.
I didn't mean to start anything the first time and look where it got me. No seriously, I think i gained a few friends out of it (you know who you are) and now i know there are some forum members with anger issues (they should know who they are). 
LBF, i assure you that i do know how to indent a paragraph.
Maybe I will grin but I won’t bear
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Edited by - awestruck on 06/02/2007 23:43:46 |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 23:52:03
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well that is what i get for copy and paste. it is that way in the discopedia. So i changed my signature.
Maybe I will grin but I won’t bare (in the discopedia it has "bear")
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Edited by - awestruck on 06/02/2007 23:52:50 |
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 00:16:12
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quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
LBF, i assure you that i do know how to indent a paragraph.
If you go back and look at your posts most of them are long chunks of words with no indentions and they are a lot harder to read that way. KSR is the total opposite, he double spaces every few words. Coincidence? It just makes it faster and easier to read for people when folks compose halfway organized paragraphs.
Actually I was wrong about that, it is bear. Oops. that's embarassing.
You have to make fun of me or something.
We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 01:34:36
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
No, there is no proof that God exists and there isn't any to disprove it either.
The existence of a higher being can't be disputed by the daily cruelties that some humans commit? The "where was god during the Holocaust/where is god when children are raped?" question is a bedrock of atheism.
I got some heaven in my head
Surely this just proves that people are evil/retards.
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 02:06:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
No, there is no proof that God exists and there isn't any to disprove it either.
The existence of a higher being can't be disputed by the daily cruelties that some humans commit? The "where was god during the Holocaust/where is god when children are raped?" question is a bedrock of atheism.
I got some heaven in my head
Surely this just proves that some people are evil/retards.
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Edited by - Llamadance on 06/03/2007 02:09:56 |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 02:31:18
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quote:
Originally posted by OLDMANOTY
quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
So nobody wants to tackle the whole "how can god exist when horrible things happen to innocents" issue?
I got some heaven in my head
For believers I imagine this is where the Devil enters the equasion. Nobody's mentioned that fella yet.
god lets satan fuck you up
the justification of god
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 06/03/2007 02:37:17 |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 02:31:36
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You're not an evil retard? Of course, some people, quite right.
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 02:54:44
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I had to clarify, it felt like you were going down a whole Catholic Original Sin route.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 02:59:17
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cheeseman the problem is that the christian god is often described as omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-Hume
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
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Srisaket
= Cult of Ray =
Thailand
313 Posts |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 10:00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Black Francis
quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
LBF, i assure you that i do know how to indent a paragraph.
If you go back and look at your posts most of them are long chunks of words with no indentions and they are a lot harder to read that way. KSR is the total opposite, he double spaces every few words. Coincidence? It just makes it faster and easier to read for people when folks compose halfway organized paragraphs.
Actually I was wrong about that, it is bear. Oops. that's embarassing.
You have to make fun of me or something.
We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe.
Ok, i will try to make my posts easier to read from now on. I am not going to make fun of you, because I listened to you.
As for some people doing horrible things, God gave us something called
free will. People can make a choice to do good or bad.
Maybe I will grin but I won’t bear
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 10:23:43
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quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
God gave us something called
free will. People can make a choice to do good or bad.
Free will? Now you're talking!
But, wait, does god have a shitty sense of humor? He's cooked up the whole thing and dumped in it huge doses of pain (cancer, earthquakes, pederast priests) but sprinkled in a smidgen of free will -- and we're supposed to eat it up?
I don't feel the need to explain the difficult feelings we must all at some point endure (because that's the point here... humans need to understand or, better, soothe life's inevitable anxiety) -- via some convoluted explanation ("See, there's this being and he's all knowing and all good but he also just sits up there and lets some of these humans he's created do horrible things and....").
For me, all experiences lead to a place where Buddhism and psychotherapy intersect (btw, I'm neither a Buddhist nor in therapy, tho the latter can be immensely helpful). At some point(s) we all confront horribly uncomfortable feelings and we are compelled to find a way to stand them...a way to live with not knowing why awful stuff happens, a way to experience the lingering sorrow or terror that accompany some events. You just have to sit with the oft-encountered fact that there is no great meaning or soothing feeling. Horrific things will happen and you will have to handle the lack of reason for them or balm to ease them.
Thank you. That was my "meaning of life" post. I'm gonna eat an egg salad sandwich now.
I got some heaven in my head
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 12:20:50
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As far as cancer and other illnesses, people bring a lot on themselves. Some get things anyway due to genetics or the environment around them. Some people invent things that are bad for our environment and our health. People use these bad things because maybe some of these things make life simpler and less complicated. Therefore, I do not think it is right to blame God for the consequences of our decisions or from decisions other's have made.
Example:
A 60 year old develops lung cancer after smoking for most of their life. Is that right to blame God for this?
A 60 year old non-smoker develops lung cancer after living with a smoker for 30 years. Is that right to blame God?
A person has high cholesterol and develops blocked arteries before having a heart attack. Is that God allowing something bad to happen to someone or is it the person's fault for eating food that is not really good for you?
A woman is raped. Is it right to blame God or should the blame belong only to the rapist who used his free will to violate another person?
I think it is wrong to blame God for all the bad things that happen in our lives. I have had bad things happen to me and most of the time bad things happen to me because of a decision I have made. He gave everyone free will and we can only control our own free will. We have no control over what other people do with their free will.
Maybe I will grin but I won’t bear
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 12:34:25
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so, with all this free will flying about, God suddenly decided to influence your husband and give you an opportunity to leave the relationship. That was decent of him. Or maybe it's that all the rape and murder and cancer that's happening now will make the world a better place in the future?
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 13:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
so, with all this free will flying about, God suddenly decided to influence your husband and give you an opportunity to leave the relationship. That was decent of him. Or maybe it's that all the rape and murder and cancer that's happening now will make the world a better place in the future?
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr
I am not saying that it will make a better world. I was just saying that free will influences decisions make.
As for my ex, his intentions for the saved money were selfish. Besides, he probably would never have used it for buying his land. I am actually surprised he never dipped into the account to get cash. He was heavy into drugs.
As for cancer and illnesses, I have had my share in my family. My mom had cancer last year and fortunately it was discovered early enough that they were able to get it all. Why did she develop cancer? I don't know, but she is more active now and enjoys life more.
My 12 year old son developed type 1 diabetes when he was 3. I am not perfect and never claimed to be. I questioned God about how he could allow this to happen. I have decided my son has type 1 diabetes for a reason. I don't know the reason, but someday I will.
I believe everything happens for a reason. Sometimes we just don't understand the reasons.
Maybe I will grin but I won’t bear
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shineoftheever
> Teenager of the Year <
Canada
4307 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 13:32:06
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one of these days i will read the whole thread and try and pipe in something new and original that hasn't been said in the thread or a million times by people with hidden agendas (religious zealots and politicians alike).
The waxworks were an immensely eloquent dissertation on the wonderful ordinariness of mankind. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 13:39:05
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quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
I am not saying that it will make a better world. I was just saying that free will influences decisions make.
As for my ex, his intentions for the saved money were selfish. Besides, he probably would never have used it for buying his land. I am actually surprised he never dipped into the account to get cash. He was heavy into drugs.
Sorry awestruck, but didn't you interpret his action as a sign from god? It doesn't matter that his intentions were selfish, you took it as a sign, that god had somehow shown you, or created for you, a way to escape your life.
And if that's true, then he (your husband) didn't have free will, did he? And if everything does happen for a reason, then it's all predetermined anyway, so there's no free will. We're all acting out on god's Broadway.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 13:46:36
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funny thing about free will is that it actually requires determinism. otherwise, how can you be sure that your free choices will lead to what you expect, if things don't follow set rules?
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 14:02:00
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gah, you've got me reading up on determinism now. There's many different kinds....which one were you thinking of?
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 14:24:29
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
funny thing about free will is that it actually requires determinism. otherwise, how can you be sure that your free choices will lead to what you expect, if things don't follow set rules?
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline
I don't think it requires determinism. You can make choices without knowing the outcomes. If you stepped out into a busy road, you don't know you'll get run over, but you think there is a high probability that it will happen. Therefore, you chose not to step out into the road. |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 14:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
I am not saying that it will make a better world. I was just saying that free will influences decisions make.
As for my ex, his intentions for the saved money were selfish. Besides, he probably would never have used it for buying his land. I am actually surprised he never dipped into the account to get cash. He was heavy into drugs.
Sorry awestruck, but didn't you interpret his action as a sign from god? It doesn't matter that his intentions were selfish, you took it as a sign, that god had somehow shown you, or created for you, a way to escape your life.
And if that's true, then he (your husband) didn't have free will, did he? And if everything does happen for a reason, then it's all predetermined anyway, so there's no free will. We're all acting out on god's Broadway.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr
I did see it as a sign from God and still do. I believe people have free will.
You know there is another thing to consider. I am sure I will regret saying this. Satan does play a part in life on Earth.
If we are going to discuss God's role in our lives, then Satan needs to be considered too.
Maybe I will grin but I won’t bear
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 14:57:57
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
cheeseman the problem is that the christian god is often described as omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-Hume
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline
I've heard that before (also possibly Sophie's World) but I'm not sure applying a finite, natural logic to an infinite, supernatural being proves anything.
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 15:37:59
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i got the problem with free will and determinism a bit wrong. so i consulted wikipedia for this post, beause i knew there was something about one sort of requiring the other. see david hume's arguments.
llama, i take determinism to mean that our actions are determined by a chain of cause and effect that can be followed back to the start of the universe. therefore you might ask: how can we be held responsible for our actions?
on the otherhand free will suggests that we have a choice - that things aren't necessary, but contingent. we could have done something else without any contradiction. therefore you might think we can be held responsible for our actions.
but if things don't follow laws of cause and effect then it suggests things can happen randomly. which once again suggests we can't be held reponsible.
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 06/03/2007 15:44:34 |
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stymie
= Cult of Ray =
385 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 16:08:10
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| Go Darwin! |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 17:01:22
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
on the otherhand free will suggests that we have a choice - that things aren't necessary, but contingent. we could have done something else without any contradiction.
Yes, free will implies that if one could go back to the point of a decision and get a "do over", that one could do something different the second time around. I don't think that works.
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 17:05:35
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Personally, I don’t see how there can be free will. I realize it feels as though we are free, and we certainly assign credit and blame to ourselves and others on the assumption that we possess free will and are therefore morally responsible for what we do.
But when we look at what is involved in our decisions, moment by moment, it just doesn’t seem plausible. All a person can do at any moment is, to the best of his or her ability, sum up the relevant circumstances and then bring to bear upon that sum the mental states, the brain states, and the values that they possess (or are possessed by) at that moment. What a person decides in a moment arises from an interaction between what is external to themselves and what is internal. The person perceives what is external, thereby making it internal, and that which has been perceived and processed cognitively then interacts with the predispositions within the individual toward decision and action. A decision is a product of the circumstances at hand, which includes the external, itself now internalized, and whatever was pre-existingly internal to the individual.
At any given instant in time, it seems that the nature or state of an individual must be seen as being fixed, as being what it is, no more, no less. All you can bring to bear upon a decision is what you’ve got, so that is in fact what you bring to bear, of necessity.
Going back to my second sentence in the first paragraph above, I think the reason we make the mistake of perceiving ourselves as free is that we have first made the mistake of perceiving our selves as singularities, and as autonomous singularities at that. We say “I” do or did that. We think of our selves first and foremost as “selves”. As individual “its”. Of course science tells us that, and we realize that, our brains are infinitely complex entities, the machinations of which we accept as the result of causes and sequences of events we cannot possibly grasp, but all the while we “willingly” participate in the illusion that we are the “I”s or “me”s driving, topdown, at least some aspect of this causality. We’re deeply enmeshed in this illusion, via our language, our culture, and our moral philosophies, and have been since long before there was any scientific understanding of what it means to be a human or even an animal.
I think that at any moment in time a thing, or an it, to include a human being, is what it is, no more, no less, and therefore that it is committed, or determined, to doing and behaving in a manner consistent with what it is. First being or existence, meaning what it is, and then the doing and the relating. A thing cannot be two things at the same time*, and therefore it can respond, always, in but one, narrowly and necessarily constrained manner.
I apologize for being so long-winded, but even as it is there is so much more that could be said, especially since this debate has been going on for at least a couple thousand years.
( * I realize this puts me in conflict with some views of what is implied by quantum mechanics. For what it’s worth, I rather ignorantly do not accept some of the controversial ontological implications of conventional quantum understanding. There are no surprises in nature. Nature does not surprise itself.)
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 17:29:57
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We made Him up and everybody knows it.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 17:45:38
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quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
We made Him up and everybody knows it.
Erebus?
 Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 17:48:05
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quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
As far as cancer and other illnesses, people bring a lot on themselves.
I'm gonna guess you're not trying to be insulting by that statement.
I got some heaven in my head
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 18:50:29
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No i wasn't because i am included in that statement. sorry if it sounded insulting.
I only meant that we all do things that is not good for us, but it is our choice to do those things. Therefore, we should not blame God for the bad things that happen to us if it could have been prevented if we had chose a different path.
Maybe I will grin but I won’t bear
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Edited by - awestruck on 06/03/2007 18:59:28 |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 19:29:32
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how do you distinguish between illnesses people bring on themselves and ones that are seemingly random? of course someone smoking for 50 years is at risk of lung cancer, but what about 4 year old kids who get brain cancer? (like someone in my girlfriends family)
did they somehow deserve it? and if not, then what reasons would God have to put so many innocent people through so much suffering and misery? we just trust that He has his reason, right?
it's interesting how you keep saying you don't want to get in an argument about Christianity / creation yet you come back with some new passive aggressive post about it every 10 minutes
sorry, i don't buy the victim routine here.. if you really didn't want to create a stir, you wouldn't |
Edited by - floop on 06/03/2007 19:34:43 |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 19:52:00
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I am just posting what i think just like everyone else. no one deserves the bad things put upon them.
Also i know what it is like for a child who is innocent to develop an illness. My son has Type 1 diabetes. Granted that is not the same as brain cancer. you know what, I don't know how to explain everything. I am not God.
I am not playing the "victim routine." I thought I was contributing to an interesting conversation with forum members that were discussing an interesting topic.
Maybe I will grin but I won’t bear
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 21:08:21
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i don't think there's anything wrong with discussing you're beliefs or expressing your opinion.. i've just noticed that several times in this thread you've stated that you didn't want to create an agrument. on that i call bullshit, is all i'm saying.
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2007 : 21:32:21
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Ok, point taken, but I really didn't realize it came out sounding that way. I did get a few insults that were uncalled for and I guess I got a bit defensive.
Maybe I will grin but I won’t bear
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Topic |
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The Creation Museum
