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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
 Posted - 06/04/2007 : 00:08:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
I apologize for being so long-winded, but even as it is there is so much more that could be said, especially since this debate has been going on for at least a couple thousand years.
( * I realize this puts me in conflict with some views of what is implied by quantum mechanics. For what it’s worth, I rather ignorantly do not accept some of the controversial ontological implications of conventional quantum understanding. There are no surprises in nature. Nature does not surprise itself.)
I can't help but think that your last statement is erroneous Erebus. What about mutations? If you've ever read Asimov's Foundation series, there is a nice example of (albeit fictional) Determinism vs mutation in there (second book I think). In fact now that this is mentioned, the whole series pretty much deals with the (perceived) science of Determinism.
As for us, well, I am the sum of my genes and experiences. But that just gives probabilities for my actions. My wife would have no way of predicting that I would sort out the washed laundry pile this week. I'm kind of shocked myself.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
Edited by - Llamadance on 06/04/2007 00:18:16 |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 08:36:29
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yeah, i deleted it.
fucking pointless.
LBF, if i was still drinking you'd be damn skippy i'd be there and yes it would be messy.
been about three months.
im starting to have the dreams like i did when i quit smoking, only its not waking up in the morning and lighting up, its walking around somewhere hitting a pint of Beam and having some kind of dream rationalization that im not actually drinking.
the mind is fun.
im old and boring and hate stuff |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 08:39:38
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I liked it. Why'd you quit drinking?
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 09:02:56
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I liked it, too. And it's good you quit drinking. Yay, you.
I have my own version of those dreams. You know what New Order said...
I got some heaven in my head
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 11:11:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
There are no surprises in nature. Nature does not surprise itself.)
I can't help but think that your last statement is erroneous Erebus. What about mutations? If you've ever read Asimov's Foundation series, there is a nice example of (albeit fictional) Determinism vs mutation in there (second book I think). In fact now that this is mentioned, the whole series pretty much deals with the (perceived) science of Determinism.
Llama, my take on that is that mutations appear surprising or random when you look down upon them from the next higher level of analysis. We ask, where did that come from? But at the level of causality at which the mutation occurs (the genetic level), and at the level below that (the biochemical, or whatever it would be called), the mutation is occurring in a manner consistent with the relevant laws of nature.
We tend to refer to genetic mutations and the phenotypes they give rise to as "random", and relative to the level at which selection occurs they might as well be, but my suspicion is that at the level at which mutations actually occur they are not random. I would think that at the biochemical level there is a pattern to the occurrence of mutations. Just my opinion as someone interested in reductionism. I'm not a geneticist.
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 11:35:51
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This letter to the editor was in The Denver Post yesterday. I don't endorse the opinion, but I thought it might be decent fodder for this thread.
Re: "Adam, Eve and T-Rex; Museum's biblical take on history opens to public Monday," May 27 news story.
Thank you for reporting on the Creation Museum. Many people believe an infinite God created time and space about 6,000 years ago and revealed our origins in human language. Others believe in eternal matter/energy that produced life through random processes. Others believe something in between. Whatever you believe, you should hear the arguments of creationist organizations such as Answers in Genesis.
People think that if you don't believe in millions of years, you are unscientific, deceptive, and/or delusional. This is understandable because cartoons, movies, schools, natural history museums and zoos all express millions of years as undisputed fact.
In reality, creationists embrace science. Many top engineers and scientists believe in a young Earth, including MRI pioneer Dr. Raymond Damadian. The scientific method itself stems from belief in an orderly God who established natural laws we could discover through repeatable tests. Therefore, most of our current scientific disciplines were founded by creationists.
Evolutionary thinking has actually held back scientific discovery. Organs with unknown functionality were considered "vestigial" and went decades without being properly researched. Then there was "junk" DNA, which we now know has key functions. Please keep an open mind and find out more than a caricature of what creationists believe.
 Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 14:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
I liked it. Why'd you quit drinking?
it was just time.
quote:
"Please keep an open mind and find out more than a caricature of what creationists believe. "
no.
its bullshit.
sorry.
the very existence of the word "creationism" or "creationist" is reactionary and invented to stem the ever-growing tide of athiesm that threatens objective, sensible education of the human race and radical personal responsibility for all.
"creationism" exists because people are realizing that if they believe in any part of the bible, then they have to believe it all - in all of its preposterousness.
no more mediocrity - either you're a complete fucking nutjob or you're an athiest because thats what religion wants - full control of your mind.
you begin to question 'faith' and the curtain starts to unravel.
its like being in a shitty coverband...i mean - just quit. what's the point? if you're out there taking parts of the bible as truth and other parts as not, then get the hell off the fence and make a decision to buy it all or nothing. grow up. you're just wasting yours and everyone else's time by being 'agnostic'. agnosticism is just fear of being struck by lightning. give up. quit doing what is holding you back.
you can do it.
you don't need god.
http://secularskeptic.blogspot.com/2007/06/my-road-to-atheism-part-1-what-took-me.html
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 15:11:17
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Sam Harris 'The End of Faith'
We have names for people who have many beliefs for which their is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them 'religious'; otherwise they are likely to be called 'mad', or 'psychotic' or 'delusional'.....Clearly there is sanity in numbers. And yet, it is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the Universe can hear our thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window. And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 20:16:07
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
4) I think it's a mistake to think that Christians need to be defended. They're far, far more powerful than any atheist. In the USA atheist are one of the most despised groups of people. You can't be elected to public office in the USA if you don't claim Jesus and God as your guiding lights.
As I was saying, today the 3 leading candidates for the Democratic Presidential nomination (not counting Gore) attended a CNN forum about religion and each tried to prove that they aren't atheists.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070605/pl_nm/usa_democrats_religion_dc_1 _ylt=AkiHmNW2wyD2mjRxBzLg8IYE1vAI |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 23:09:25
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That is scary. Really scary (especially Clinton & Edwards). Was religion as prominent a candidacy issue when Bill Clinton got elected? And as a populist aside, what's Arnie's take on religion?
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 10:10:11
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Looks like we have one of our own museums right here in Big Valley, Alberta, Canada;
http://www.bvcsm.com/
__________
Fuck off I got work to do. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 10:34:53
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| "creation science" hehehehehehehehe |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 01:15:56
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 01:24:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
Are those God's groupies in the background? Or is it indeed true that he has peers?
Discuss.
 The humble apple |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 01:44:13
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For anyone who is confused about evolution, I found this website which provides near instant expertise:
Chapter 4
EVOLUTION
How do we know about ancient creatures?
Scientists who study the extinct creatures that once roamed the Earth are called paleontologists. If you were to watch a paleontologist at work, you would probably see him on his hands and knees, methodically and painstakingly examining the surface of the ground. This is because he is looking for fossils, or else he has lost a contact lens.
A fossil is any trace left behind by a living thing. Usually the term refers to mineralized bones, but it can also include teeth, eggs, footprints and unpaid phone bills. By careful analysis, paleontologists can often reconstruct an entire animal from just a tiny fragment of bone.
By collecting and analyzing fossils, paleontologists have succeeded in tracing the entire history of life on Earth, from the first living things to modern man. Of course, there are gaps in the record and minor uncertainties of interpretation. Nevertheless, the overall picture is clearly understood.
How does evolution work?
Animals of a given species are alike because they inherit a certain set of genes from their parents. Every so often, something goes wrong with the mechanism that transmits the genes, and an animal is born that doesn't resemble its father and mother. You probably know of examples in your own family.
If this accidental variation, or mutation, is helpful in the animal's struggle to survive, it is more likely to be passed on to succeeding generations. In this way, new species can arise.
The First Living Things
Evolution proceeds from simpler forms to the more complex. The first animals were simple one-celled blobs of protoplasm. Then two-celled animals arose. They were followed by three-celled, four-celled, five-celled, etc. (If you find the mathematics here too difficult, just think of the numbers larger than one as "many.")
It is easy to see how this process led inevitably to more complex forms such as sponges, the worms and so forth. Especially if you don't think about it too much.
Idiot. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 13:17:57
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Just now I am watching an old fave original Star Trek episode “The Return of the Archons” which has as its centerpiece the loving embrace of Landru. Quotes:
by Spock: Odd, the expression on that man’s face - blank contentment.
by Landru Elder: The strangers are not “of the body”.
For years I have wanted to reply to the seasonal greeting “Merry Christmas” with “Go with Landru”, but I’ve never had the nerve.
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 07:13:51
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Here it is Erebus. Must have been fate ;)
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 15:25:21
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religion is poopy. discuss. (i feel like JD in the scrubs episode "His Story IV")
"Idiot" is just her sig. |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 07/02/2007 16:07:38 |
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The Creation Museum
