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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
 Posted - 06/01/2007 : 08:56:02
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What I don’t understand is why any god worthy of the name would give a damn, literally and figuratively, about what human beings do. What could motivate a god? If you were all-knowing and/or all-powerful, just how would you spend your time? And an eternity of it no less, both backward into an infinite past and forward towards who knows what? Forever. What would be, or even could be, important to such an entity?
Aside from the fact that it can be intellectually satisfying to know just what is the case, meaning that a person who wants to understand the nature of the world and existence will quite naturally want to have an accurate assessment of whether there is a god or not, I mean, aside from that, why does anybody even care whether there’s a god or not? To me a god would be just another “it” within the void of space and time, and a pretty lonely fucker at that, I would guess. And if it happened to be that there actually was an “it” with the power and disposition to reward or punish other “its” like us eternally with bliss or suffering, wouldn’t that be more than a little perverse? Just what is there that a mass of flesh and blood can do on a rock in the middle of nowhere that would warrant an eternal outcome? Maybe it’s just me, but doesn’t that seem a touch petty? And if “it” doesn’t hand down some kind of consequence for how we live our lives, why should we give a damn about “it” at all?
Why would a god “give a damn” about whether or not we believe in it, or worship it? Why would it give a fuck? The whole thing is so ridiculous that I can only think that if there were in fact a god it would be one that rewarded the atheists for showing a little spunk and independence and punished the believers for so sheepishly accepting such concepts on such outlandishly flimsy evidence.
One more thing that’s really funny about faith is that the whole thing, the entire conception of the nature of the world, the nature of human existence, and the nature of god, is for any and all of us dancing around within less than 2000 cubic centimeters of cranial capacity. That’s the only thing to which we have direct access. That is us. That’s all we’ve got. For any given person the whole of art, science, and philosophy resides within a little puddle of matter. And yet we assert all these grandiose conceptions about the nature of the world. Hell, on the other side of the world people are killing one another over differences between worldviews generated by clumps of matter perched on their shoulders. But, oh yes, they “know” what god is and wants. How pathetic is that?
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Edited by - Erebus on 06/01/2007 09:17:57 |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 09:01:40
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| Ere E Bus! Ere E Bus! Ere E Bus!.... |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 09:05:33
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I gotta say I love those last 2 paragraphs (not that the first two are bad), but they to me hit the mark and show what a dangerous (in a good sense) writer you are when on a roll.
"That kid has spunk. Bring him up Heaven!" |
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blip
- FB Fan -
29 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 09:40:56
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POWERFUL REASONING. WOW Erebus.
Should be recognized as the post-of-the-month
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 09:50:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
What I don’t understand is why any god worthy of the name would give a damn, literally and figuratively, about what human beings do. What could motivate a god? If you were all-knowing and/or all-powerful, just how would you spend your time? And an eternity of it no less, both backward into an infinite past and forward towards who knows what? Forever. What would be, or even could be, important to such an entity?
-snip-
A
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Edited by - PixieSteve on 06/01/2007 09:51:10 |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 10:21:45
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Just out of curiosity, those of you who not believe in God, please explain how evolution began from the first thing living on earth.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders |
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 11:09:40
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Ouais! Erebus! fuckin' A!
Well I guess too that if there was a god that had something to do with humans (he made them at his image), what kind of person would it be if he wants them to adore him. What a vain god! And I wonder why he would bother himself with such things as other planets, stars and atoms just to make us be, here is someone that has a twisted mind.
"un jour tu connaitra cette detresse de pres ou de loin, je peux te le jurer" - Ofabsis |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 11:18:49
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Until Erebus' post my fave line about god was Pacino's "God is an absentee landlord."
I got some heaven in my head
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 11:19:17
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quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
Just out of curiosity, those of you who not believe in God, please explain how evolution began from the first thing living on earth.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders
And you'll explain to us how god got started?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 11:59:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
The whole thing is so ridiculous that I can only think that if there were in fact a god it would be one that rewarded the atheists for showing a little spunk and independence and punished the believers for so sheepishly accepting such concepts on such outlandishly flimsy evidence.
Damn. Maybe God WILL be my savior.
 Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 12:09:43
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go check out the reading group thread. we are going to read the old testament. then we are going to discuss it. should be fun.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 12:27:55
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quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
Just out of curiosity, those of you who not believe in God, please explain how evolution began from the first thing living on earth.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders
This is a pretty good starting point (half way down page entitled 'A Brief History of Life':
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html#history
In essence:
1. The Earth sat barren for the first billion years or so. No oxygen present in the atmosphere and damn hot!
2. First bacteria thought to have formed around deep sea hydrothermal vents about 3.5 billion years ago.
3. Eukaryotes (amoebas etc) first appeared 1.5 billion years ago. It looks like bacteria had the party all to itself for a long time.
4. Fungi (mushrooms, yeasts) first appeared 900 million years ago
5. First 'animals' appeared 600 million years ago. These included sea worms, jelly fish etc
6. Land plants began 400 million years ago
7. Amphibians and first reptiles from 380 million years ago
8. Then we had the Permian mass extinction event 250 million years ago which wiped out 96% of all species.
9. Then the dinosaurs got stuck in and lasted until 65 million years ago
10. Then all sorts of weird and wonderful mammals took over until the weirdest and most dangerous mammal of all time waltzed up to the plate about 150,000 years ago.
You can read up on the above in detail for days and days should you so wish. The Talk Origins website is a mine of info.
edit: corrected the numbering. Gotta stop posting with half a bottle of wine inside me.
 The humble apple |
Edited by - bedrock_barney on 06/02/2007 03:17:08 |
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tisasawath
= Cult of Ray =
Wallis and Futuna Islands
783 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 01:39:14
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now just substitute "appeared" with "evolved" in the previous post
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AAAAWWWWWRRRIIGGHHTTTTT !! ! |
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bumblebeeboy2
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2638 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 03:37:56
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Chances are we're all living in a computer simulation anyway, so what does it matter. Our god(s) could just as likely be more advanced humans...
"This paper argues that at least one of the following propositions is true: (1) the human species is very likely to go extinct before reaching a “posthuman” stage; (2) any posthuman civilization is extremely unlikely to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations thereof); (3) we are almost certainly living in a computer simulation. It follows that the belief that there is a significant chance that we will one day become posthumans who run ancestor-simulations is false, unless we are currently living in a simulation. A number of other consequences of this result are also discussed."
http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html
http://www.myspace.com/monkeyhelperband http://www.myspace.com/imnimrodsson |
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 04:16:27
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They talked about this Museum on a french news tv channel.
They said there was one like that in Sweden and another one is planned in Switzerland.
"un jour tu connaitra cette detresse de pres ou de loin, je peux te le jurer" - Ofabsis |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 07:28:53
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Thanks to those with the generous words about my post. Apologies to anyone I may have offended.
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Steak n Sabre
* Dog in the Sand *
Uzbekistan
1013 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 07:42:14
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quote:
Originally posted by bumblebeeboy2
Chances are we're all living in a computer simulation anyway, so what does it matter. Our god(s) could just as likely be more advanced humans...
http://www.myspace.com/monkeyhelperband http://www.myspace.com/imnimrodsson
This has always been a favorite 'What if?' of mine. Though I've tended to think that the entire volume of everything that has ever existed is nothing more than a speck on a slide. Our known universe is just something else's microorganism sample....
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 09:13:18
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makes me think about sophie's world...
do we have a life of our own, more that what their complicated algorithms define, and how could we convey that to them? or is our consciousness programmed into us as well?
what if computers are self aware already? what constitutes consciousness?
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 10:59:44
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this is the first paragraph in http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html#history
"Biologists studying evolution do a variety of things: population geneticists study the process as it is occurring; systematists seek to determine relationships between species and paleontologists seek to uncover details of the unfolding of life in the past. Discerning these details is often difficult, but hypotheses can be made and tested as new evidence comes to light. This section should be viewed as the best hypothesis scientists have as to the history of the planet. The material here ranges from some issues that are fairly certain to some topics that are nothing more than informed speculation. For some points there are opposing hypotheses -- I have tried to compile a consensus picture. In general, the more remote the time, the more likely the story is incomplete or in error."
Key words:
Main Entry: hy·poth·e·sis
Pronunciation: hI-'pä-th&-s&s
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural hy·poth·e·ses /-"sEz/
Etymology: Greek, from hypotithenai to put under, suppose, from hypo- + tithenai to put -- more at DO
1 a : an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action
2 : a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences
3 : the antecedent clause of a conditional statement
synonyms HYPOTHESIS, THEORY, LAW mean a formula derived by inference from scientific data that explains a principle operating in nature. HYPOTHESIS implies insufficient evidence to provide more than a tentative explanation <a hypothesis explaining the extinction of the dinosaurs>. THEORY implies a greater range of evidence and greater likelihood of truth <the theory of evolution>. LAW implies a statement of order and relation in nature that has been found to be invariable under the same conditions <the law of gravitation>.
speculation
Main Entry: spec·u·late
Pronunciation: 'spe-ky&-"lAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing
Etymology: Latin speculatus, past participle of speculari to spy out, examine, from specula lookout post, from specere to look, look at -- more at SPY
intransitive verb
1 a : to meditate on or ponder a subject : REFLECT b : to review something idly or casually and often inconclusively
2 : to assume a business risk in hope of gain; especially : to buy or sell in expectation of profiting from market fluctuations
transitive verb
1 : to take to be true on the basis of insufficient evidence : THEORIZE <speculated that a virus caused the disease>
2 : to be curious or doubtful about : WONDER <speculates whether it will rain all vacation>
synonym see THINK
- spec·u·la·tor /-"lA-t&r/ noun
and the last sentence:
"In general, the more remote the time, the more likely the story is incomplete or in error."
So as far as I can tell, this website does not prove how the "creation" of evolution began. And i am not saying that evolution did not happen. I am just stating that evolution and creation exist together. So just as I cannot prove that God does not exist, neither can it be proved that he doesn't.
just for the record i only posted the definitions just to have the definitions there and i am in no way implying that anyone does not know the definition of hypothesis or speculation.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders |
Edited by - awestruck on 06/02/2007 11:09:08 |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 12:14:24
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Evolution happens. It can be seen and measured. Papers are published every week where someone has measured changes in species traits over time (sometimes as short as years). It's really not disputable. You can't refute that diseases predictably become restraint to drugs. That's evolution. As Llama said early in the thread, the question gor biologists isn't does evolution happen, it's what the relative contributions of different processes like natural selection, speciation, and drift.
I believe the hypotheses and speculations referred to in section are about the exact history of life on the planet. Questions like how are camels and horses related. It's not speculation about whether evolution caused their divergence, but when did they diverge, was their divergence caused by natural selection or by them being isolated geographically from one another.
The distinction really needs to be made between evolution and the origin of life. It's true that there is no definitive evidence about how life started on Earth (or anywhere), and many people believe that the origin of life was caused by a god and then evolution took over. So, not having an explanation (or evidence) for the origin of life doesn't disprove evolution. Evolution happens after the origin of life. |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 13:13:53
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just adding to what darwin is saying and something llama mentioned earlier.. i've had many arguments with people over the word "theory", loads of people misunderstand it and misuse it. they think evolution is a theory and that that means it's not fact. a theory is an explanation of how and why something happens. the actual thing that happens can be perfectly observable and considered fact.
evolution (change in a population of species' traits) happens.
the most commonly accepted theory of evolution will include natural selection, and blah blah, (talk to man above). this could be wrong/improved/adapted. by nature, theories can't be scientifically proven, but the thing they try to explain can.
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 13:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Evolution happens. It can be seen and measured. Papers are published every week where someone has measured changes in species traits over time (sometimes as short as years). It's really not disputable. You can't refute that diseases predictably become restraint to drugs. That's evolution. As Llama said early in the thread, the question gor biologists isn't does evolution happen, it's what the relative contributions of different processes like natural selection, speciation, and drift.
I believe the hypotheses and speculations referred to in section are about the exact history of life on the planet. Questions like how are camels and horses related. It's not speculation about whether evolution caused their divergence, but when did they diverge, was their divergence caused by natural selection or by them being isolated geographically from one another.
The distinction really needs to be made between evolution and the origin of life. It's true that there is no definitive evidence about how life started on Earth (or anywhere), and many people believe that the origin of life was caused by a god and then evolution took over. So, not having an explanation (or evidence) for the origin of life doesn't disprove evolution. Evolution happens after the origin of life.
Exactly! "Evolution happens after the origin of life." People should not confuse the two. That is the point i have tried to say, but not as well as you. Evolution does not explain creation. I believe the evidence that evolution occurred. I know in an earlier post i referred to evolution as a theory and i should have phrased that differently. I just do not think the evidence of evolution proves that God does not exists. I can't prove that God exists. I know that and I haven't even tried to prove it. But in the 6 pages of this thread, imo some are trying to prove to me that God does not exist by using evolution as proof. And it just does not prove it. So the best answer is that unless you are sound in your belief that God exists, then the only appropriate response is to say that you don't know. Because if you can't prove the origin of life with sound scientific evidence then you don't know. And before someone states that i don't know either because there is no proof of God's existence, then i will say this in response: No, there is no proof that God exists and there isn't any to disprove it either. I have faith that He does exist. Belief in something does not make it fact. My belief does not make it a fact, but the belief that He does not exist does not make that a fact either. We are all here regardless of how it happened so make the best of it. And live life to the fullest.
Maybe I will grin but I won't bear |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 13:50:57
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actually i don't think anyone was trying to use evolution to argue god doesn't exist. i think the distinction between origin of life and evolution was made clear ages ago. the discussion over god was separate.
also i don't see how being a christian and "living life to the fullest" are compatible. isn't your life all about sucking up so that you have a better afterlife?
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 06/02/2007 13:53:10 |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 14:06:40
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quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
No, there is no proof that God exists and there isn't any to disprove it either.
The existence of a higher being can't be disputed by the daily cruelties that some humans commit? The "where was god during the Holocaust/where is god when children are raped?" question is a bedrock of atheism.
I got some heaven in my head
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 14:08:03
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quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
Evolution does not explain creation.
Depends on what you mean by creation. Evolution doesn't explain the origin of life. It does explain how we ended up with the species we see today and some people when they say creation mean that God made humans, cats, ants, small pox, and ect. So, in that sense of the word evolution does explain creation. |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 14:11:41
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yes it is, but you can have fun and live life to the fullest and be a christian too. my living life to the fullest does not necessarily mean doing things that are wrong. Living life to the fullest is succeeding at raising my children to reach their fullest potential. Being a friend that people can count. I am not perfect. No one is. What is your view of a christian? It must be that there are some stereotypes out there of how a christian should look or live. Some Christian religions are different. Some don't think you should drink. Some don't think you should wear makeup. Some think women should not cut their hair and should only where skirts. Some believe in talking in tongues and some don't. Some don't think you should dance. Some think the only music you should listen to is christian music. I do not go to those extremes. I live life to the best of my ability and i think that dancing does not lead to sex (well, not all the time), I don't think God is particularly cares whether you wear a skirt all the time or put makeup on. i cut my hair and i listen to christian music. Obviously i listen to other kinds of music. I am on this forum. There are plenty of christian's out there having a good time. I guess it just depends on your idea of fun. How exactly would you define living life to its fullest?
Maybe I will grin but I won’t bear
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 14:24:04
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so if and when man creates a life form from scratch (not so far away) where does that leave the origin of life question?
[edit] - I should have posted that on the drunk thread I think
[edit2] quote:
i cut my hair and i listen to christian music
- that's my favourite line awestruck. ;)
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
Edited by - Llamadance on 06/02/2007 14:29:11 |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 14:26:15
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quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
How exactly would you define living life to its fullest?
posting a lot on an internet forum |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 14:37:18
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so what if dancing did lead to sex, is that a bad thing?
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 06/02/2007 14:38:18 |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 14:43:24
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I was merely pointing out how most view Christianity. Those were merely a few examples. And i am not going to comment on whether or not sex is bad. That would start a whole new controversy and i am not going there again. I could just say talk to your "spiritual advisor" to find out the answer to that one and if you don't believe in God then i guess that question doesn't matter. do what you want.
Maybe I will grin but I won’t bear
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 16:29:00
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I'm pro-sex.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 17:26:28
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is that the opposite of a sex-pro
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 06/02/2007 17:26:45 |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 22:00:58
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So nobody wants to tackle the whole "how can god exist when horrible things happen to innocents" issue?
I got some heaven in my head
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 22:22:06
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| Who said God had to be nice? |
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OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
469 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 23:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
So nobody wants to tackle the whole "how can god exist when horrible things happen to innocents" issue?
I got some heaven in my head
For believers I imagine this is where the Devil enters the equasion. Nobody's mentioned that fella yet. |
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The Creation Museum
