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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
 Posted - 05/30/2007 : 15:45:43
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quote:
Originally posted by coastline
quote:
Originally posted by LlamadanceAnd coastline was defending awestruck and her 'brand' of religion.
By this, I meant the non-Jerry Falwell brand, by the way. In case the term was unclear.
 Please pardon me, for these my wrongs.
is that ice cream? A god made of ice cream? mmmmmfrosty.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 15:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
But to say that i am so strong in my faith that i will not change my mind, i take that as a compliment. that is what faith is about. if i changed my mind i really didn't have faith to begin with.
isnt there a belief in christianity that the pursuit of human knowledge is to be condemned or at least thought of as against god's will or is a sin?
if so, how do you resolve that against taking the anthropology classes?
isnt it the taking of the fruit from the tree of knowledge the act that got adam and eve kicked out of eden?
do you truly believe that these things actually happened?
if so, why?
do you choose which parts of the bible are anecdotal and which are allegorical?
if so, how do you decide? are there notes in the margins indicating how the word is to be interpreted?
doesn't your faith tell you that you have to belive it all and take it all literally? It is The Word Of God, is it not?
What are some examples of the strength of your faith?
Your ability to not get angry at my attacks? To forgive me? There are plenty of agnostics or even athiests reading that are capable of the same feat im sure, but they're nto bound to - they do so because it makes them feel good - it feels right to forgive because it is good for the human mind...and consequently the human body.
How, in real, quantifiable concrete terms, has jesus brought miraculous change into your life?
Lets hear your story, awestruck.
Testify.
What was it like when you were saved or born again?
Explain it.
Language is powerful.
You're an intelligent person.
Use it to bring us all closer to the light.
Yes, my aim is to challenge your faith, because i feel that if you can't talk about it, can't drag it out into the light and talk about what makes it happen in terms that people who are not experiencing it can easily understand, then it isn't REAL. I beleive you believe it, i just want to know WHY...and i want something other than "i just know" or "that is the nature of faith."
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Jefrey
= Cult of Ray =
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 16:02:44
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quote:
Originally posted by KimStanleyRobinson
Bumper stickers make people think. That's why you see fewer these days.
im old and boring and hate stuff
Yeah...they make you think the person driving the car is a brainwashed twit. How ironic.
Look, if your kid is not a moron and you believe you are raising him the right way, he will make his own choices based on his world view eventually.
I have the same fears as you about society trying to form how my child should think, but I also know that I went to a Jesuit high school and was a confirmed Catholic at the time. Religion courses were part of the curriculum, and they exposed us too all different world religions. as a result, I decided Christianity was not for me. I know the Jesuits are more intellectual than most sects of Christianity, but they certainly didn't brainwash me. Entirely the opposite. They wanted me to make sure I was making the right choice in my faith.
== jeffamerica == |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 16:02:47
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spelling errors are on purpose.
for effect.
meant to do that.
im old and boring and hate stuff |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 17:05:44
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KSR, as i have said already i do not consider myself to be the typical christian. i do find myself questioning my belief at times. I do not see myself as being a fanatical christian. I find subjects such as anthropology and evolution to be interesting. I am an English major and i read things that my church would not agree with. I listen to FB and many of my christian friends would say that music other that christian music is evil. i write poetry and it is not christian poetry. I have never claimed to be the perfect christian b/c no christian is perfect and if they try to tell you they are then they are flat out lying. I believe in God, but i also believe evolution is real. I find it interesting that some christian's can believe that the earth is 6000 years old. I find it interesting that dinosaurs could have been on the ark. I find it interesting that our DNA and apes and monkeys are so similar. I believe it is like 98% of our DNA is the same as theirs. i could be wrong about the exact percentage. As for it actually working in my life, well i am not sure if a detailed testimony is what i want to do after being personally attacked. But I will give a glossed over version.
During high school and my young adult life i believed in God, but i didn't practice being a christian. I married a very abusive man. one day i was at my lowest i talked to God. I just talked to him like i would a friend. I couldn't live like that anymore and i couldn't allow my children to live like that either. But i didn't know what to do, because i had no access to money. my husband got it all. without money it is kind of hard to leave and start a life on your own, esp when i had never lived on my own. I was married about a month after high school graduation. So i told God that if He was really there and that if He really existed then it would be nice to have a sign. i needed a sign from Him pointing me in the direction for the path i needed to take in my life. The next day (i kid you not) my husband told me he wanted me to start direct depositing $100 of my paycheck each week into the credit union where i work. my husband wanted to save the money so he could purchase his father's land. of course my name would not be on the land. it hit me that this was the break i needed and that God had opened the door for me to get out. I figured all i would need was $1000 dollars to build up in my account then i could take the money and rent an apartment, get utilities and provide a better life for me and my children. And i did. I waited until the money was in there and i did exactly what i planned. And i didn't look back. God give me the strength to do it. I have never done anything so empowering in my life. And i have never done anything that scared me as much as that, either. But i believe God was there for me every step of the way.
Now i know that divorce is wrong, but I believe that i did the right thing. And i am sure i am going to hear all about it being just a coincidence, but i really believe it was God. And my experience with God will not persuade anyone over to believing in God or believe that Jesus died to save everyone, but i do believe that when you are willing to open your heart to Him then He will be there. No matter who you are or what you have done in your life. As for prayer, i talk to God and Jesus like they are right there beside me.
Ok let the criticism start. 
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders
sorry that was supposed to be the glossed over version. oh well, i like to talk and write so i guess it just came natural to just tell you all what happened. |
Edited by - awestruck on 05/30/2007 17:25:06 |
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 01:19:43
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A museum is just a place where artifacts are displayed. There's nothing inherently obtrusive in that. However, what if down the block from the Creation Museum there was a Holocaust Museum curated by Nazis proporting the Holocaust never happened? Does it deserve the same respect that the Creation museum presupposes?
Personally I think the whole idea is bogus. It really gets my goat that reasonable Christians become associated with radical fucking bullshit like this piece of crap Museum.
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cptnpasty
- FB Fan -
Spain
161 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 01:35:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Black Francis
A museum is just a place where artifacts are displayed. There's nothing inherently obtrusive in that. However, what if down the block from the Creation Museum there was a Holocaust Museum curated by Nazis proporting the Holocaust never happened? Does it deserve the same respect that the Creation museum presupposes?
Personally I think the whole idea is bogus. It really gets my goat that reasonable Christians become associated with radical fucking bullshit like this piece of crap Museum.
non-non non-non non egregious
I had been refusing to take the museum issue too seriously but actually that's a hell of a point. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 02:50:10
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quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
During high school and my young adult life i believed in God, but i didn't practice being a christian. I married a very abusive man. one day i was at my lowest i talked to God. I just talked to him like i would a friend. I couldn't live like that anymore and i couldn't allow my children to live like that either. But i didn't know what to do, because i had no access to money. my husband got it all. without money it is kind of hard to leave and start a life on your own, esp when i had never lived on my own. I was married about a month after high school graduation. So i told God that if He was really there and that if He really existed then it would be nice to have a sign. i needed a sign from Him pointing me in the direction for the path i needed to take in my life. The next day (i kid you not) my husband told me he wanted me to start direct depositing $100 of my paycheck each week into the credit union where i work. my husband wanted to save the money so he could purchase his father's land. of course my name would not be on the land. it hit me that this was the break i needed and that God had opened the door for me to get out. I figured all i would need was $1000 dollars to build up in my account then i could take the money and rent an apartment, get utilities and provide a better life for me and my children. And i did. I waited until the money was in there and i did exactly what i planned. And i didn't look back. God give me the strength to do it. I have never done anything so empowering in my life. And i have never done anything that scared me as much as that, either. But i believe God was there for me every step of the way.
Now i know that divorce is wrong, but I believe that i did the right thing. And i am sure i am going to hear all about it being just a coincidence, but i really believe it was God. And my experience with God will not persuade anyone over to believing in God or believe that Jesus died to save everyone, but i do believe that when you are willing to open your heart to Him then He will be there. No matter who you are or what you have done in your life. As for prayer, i talk to God and Jesus like they are right there beside me.
Ok let the criticism start.
awestruck, it's great that you found the strength to leave an abusive relationship, but it wasn't god who helped you, it was you. Entirely down to you. You wanted out, you needed money, you knew exactly what you had to do to get out. It came that way, but it could have come many ways. Still, I'd rather someone was happy with religion than unhappy in an abusive relationship.
I'd say you're undermining your own strength by believing it came from god, but I guess many people feel they can get that kind of thing from external sources, whatever those sources may be.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 03:07:38
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aren't there millions more people who ask god for help and don't get any?
coincidences are a lot more common than people think. if you're in a class of 23 people, there's a 50% that at least two of you will share a birthday. doesn't seem intuitive does it?
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 05/31/2007 03:18:04 |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 04:53:28
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Is this the part where beat up on awestruck and say she's wrong/stupid/naive/whatever to interpret her life the way she does?
I'm not the only woman on this board who, with a child, left an abusive marriage but doesn't ascribe the strength to have done so to a god. I don't think it's likely that awestruck will insist that the other board member and I view our own experience thru her lens of god and faith. Just let people think what they want.
I got some heaven in my head
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 05:42:27
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hmmm, I was trying to be positive and say she was stronger than she thinks she is/was. Awestruck did put her situation up for discussion, she didn't have to.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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Srisaket
= Cult of Ray =
Thailand
313 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 06:54:03
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
aren't there millions more people who ask god for help and don't get any?
coincidences are a lot more common than people think. if you're in a class of 23 people, there's a 50% that at least two of you will share a birthday. doesn't seem intuitive does it?
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline
Surely you mean probability not coincidence? |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 07:15:41
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the probability of a coincidence?
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
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Srisaket
= Cult of Ray =
Thailand
313 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 07:26:13
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
the probability of a coincidence?
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline
You mean like human evolution? |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 07:27:36
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
Just let people think what they want.
sure.
just so long as they're actually thinking and not "putting it all in god's hands", im fine with that.
"The lord helps those who help themselves."
think about that for a minute. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 07:36:25
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KSR you know I smoke way too much to think about something that trippy.
As long as there are no laws requiring me to experience my life thru the lens of a Christian or other god, I don't care what other people think. Actions, that's different. But interpreting one's own life? Go ahead, think what you want.
I got some heaven in my head
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 11:58:51
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Onion poignancy:
http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/i_believe_in_evolution_except
"...In fact, scientific reasoning can explain nearly every stage of life from the Big Bang to the present day. I say "nearly" because the period that scientists claim lasted from roughly 205 to 250 million years ago, commonly known as the Triassic period, was quite obviously the work of the Lord God Almighty."
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 12:21:26
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What can I say? Well to begin with, i knew when i posted my story what others were going to say about it. And you all didn't disappoint me. Like i said, the only way you will believe in God is through your own personal experience with Him. I can't prove Gods existence, but none of you can prove his nonexistence either. I will again say that I see the evidence of evolution. I do not deny its existence. But neither does evolution prove that God does not exist. It does not prove how the process of evolution began. I believe what i believe because of my own personal experience.
As for the original purpose of this misguided thread: I want to go visit the creation museum because i am curious to see how they present creation. I want to see what evidence they provide toward the belief that the earth is only 6000 years ago. I want to read for myself how they explain dinosaurs existing at the same time as man. why? because knowledge is important to everyone, whether they believe in God or not.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 14:04:48
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This thread has so much anti-Christian bigotry in it is unreal. Also incredibly wrong takes on Christianity that are totally false. This is bile:
"isnt there a belief in christianity that the pursuit of human knowledge is to be condemned or at least thought of as against god's will or is a sin?"
That is absurd. Totally. Also, don't lump all Christians together, thats really stupid. The VAST majority of Christians reconcile with science. The 2 can happily coexist and do for many ACTUAL SCIENTISTS!
Finally, I love the athiests. LOVE THEM. So insulated from their own warped thought process. Athiests ARE absolute fundamentalists. They have a belief system based on nothing. But, they believe it with all of their hearts (but no soul). Not agnostics. I can see honesty there. But, athiests are charlatains who condemn believers for having faith, or a belief, in something they cannot prove here in the physical world. Athiests, of course believe there is no God and have absolutely no way to prove that in the physical world. They simply believe it. They have faith in it. An empty faith, but, that is all it is. Hypocrits by definition really. Not much other way to look at it.
Also, anyone who doesn't believe that Dinosaurs lived peacefully with humans need only dig up the fossilized remains of Fred and Wilma Flintstone who succesfully domesticated and cohabitated with a dinosaur for years. DO THE RESEARCH PEOPLE!!!!!
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 14:08:35
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awestruck,
I find it interesting (though not really disappointing because it's what I expected) that so many folks seemingly cannot differentiate between someone with sincerely held personal religious beliefs (and who is merely stating them in a relevant forum thread) and stereotypical religious zealots. Apparently if you believe in God -- especially the Christian one -- you are not allowed to interpret things for yourself and are equal to the creators of that museum and the Taliban and Jerry Falwell, et al., etc., ad nauseum.
I admire you for stating your beliefs in spite of the inevitable demeaning responses.
 "Don't underestimate parsley." |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 14:30:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
Athiests, of course believe there is no God and have absolutely no way to prove that in the physical world. They simply believe it. They have faith in it. An empty faith, but, that is all it is. Hypocrits by definition really. Not much other way to look at it.
we have already discussed how the burden is not on non-believers to disprove the existence of god. see the teapot analogy. i don't see how it's hypocritical to believe something doesn't exist when there is no evidence for it to exist. i believe there are no unicorns. ZOMG, empty faith!!!
you've given the existence of God higher credibility than the existence of a celestial teapot/unicorn/whatever, for reasons that are unscientific.
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 14:34:58
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BLT, I assume that it's just because a Christian stuck her head above the parapet (if you will), that that God and belief is being questioned. Also, most of us probably understand Christianity better, so have a more informed base with which to query it (haha). Interesting that nobody from another religious belief system has spoken up, unless I've missed it.
Also, agnostics and atheists have as much right to state their belief as anyone else, and to query people. I suspect most of us are just trying to understand how religious people think. To think that there is no dogma in the church is a bit naive.
Dallas, there is no difference really between an atheist and someone who believes in god, though you could argue that atheists have percentages in their favour. To say it's an empty faith (atheism), well, if the roles were reversed, that would be considered disrespectful and demeaning.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 14:40:07
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quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
As for the original purpose of this misguided thread: I want to go visit the creation museum because i am curious to see how they present creation. I want to see what evidence they provide toward the belief that the earth is only 6000 years ago. I want to read for myself how they explain dinosaurs existing at the same time as man. why? because knowledge is important to everyone, whether they believe in God or not.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders
Why is my thread misguided?? I put this one up not to start a Atheist v Christian war but to gauge opinion on the Young Earth Creationism premise.
 The humble apple |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 14:40:57
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To be fair McSteve, you haven't had the Christians coming here and attacking the very basis of your faith/belief/rationale, as awestruck has had her beliefs attacked. Most of the Christian side seem to be quite live-and-let-live, except for you angry Dallas man up there.
Nobody on the non-atheist side got personal either (pointing no fingers).
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 14:46:37
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I agree, the thread could have been less confrontational and more meaningful. I suspect (pointing no fingers) attitude may have been reactionary to local christian fundamentalism. A release valve if you will.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 14:58:09
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Not quite sure why Dallas has blown a gasket on this one.
Regarding an Atheist's belief system, if there is such a thing (I'm not so sure there is), I consider it to be quite different to one who believes in God. Although I'm no expert I imagine that Awestruck thinks about God on a pretty regular basis.
I do not believe in a God but I don't worship or praise this 'belief' on a day to day basis. I simply get on with my life, hopefully following a decent set of moral codes and trying to protect and bring up my children as best I can. Now and then I suppose I think about the whole God thing but this is usually stimulated by a thread like this, or reading a book like The God Illusion or some athlete on TV telling an interviewer that the primary reason for their gold medal is God's influence/presence in their life. Sadly the latter does goad me into shouting at the TV screen. Politicians also have this effect. Actually I spend a lot of time shouting at the telly.
Bizarrely I do find myself in and around Churches all the time through my work. I find them to be beautiful awe inspiring buildings but I guess this is from an architectural viewpoint and also an admiration of the sweat and toil that must have gone into their creation.
The humble apple |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 15:06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Black Francis
A museum is just a place where artifacts are displayed. There's nothing inherently obtrusive in that. However, what if down the block from the Creation Museum there was a Holocaust Museum curated by Nazis proporting the Holocaust never happened? Does it deserve the same respect that the Creation museum presupposes?
non-non non-non non egregious
With efficiency in mind the two ought to amalgamate. Shudder to think what we might find in the vaults a few years down the line.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
Edited by - trobrianders on 05/31/2007 15:06:59 |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 15:06:32
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quote:
You ought to be spending your time making your case for God rather than slandering something you obviously know nothing about.
This ought to be in the FAQ or something for this thread, applicable to all sides of the argument.
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 15:11:04
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Dallas, your rant on Atheism is pure faggotry. You ought to be spending your time making your case for God rather than slandering something you obviously know nothing about. Lumping all Atheists together is just as bigoted as lumping all Christians together. Atheism is an absence of a belief in god. All the baseless assertions you derive from that only serve to mythologize it, and are completely counterproductive to any intelligent discussion.
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 15:13:07
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jeez, is that coincidence or divine intervention?
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
Edited by - Llamadance on 05/31/2007 15:13:51 |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 15:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
KSR you know I smoke way too much to think about something that trippy.
As long as there are no laws requiring me to experience my life thru the lens of a Christian or other god, I don't care what other people think. Actions, that's different. But interpreting one's own life? Go ahead, think what you want.
I got some heaven in my head
Interpretation leads to action. That's the trouble.
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 15:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
jeez, is that coincidence or divine intervention?
just trying to boost the ol' post-count
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 15:15:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
jeez, is that coincidence or divine intervention?
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr
?que?
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 15:17:23
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because you quoted me before I posted, or did I quote you?
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 15:17:34
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cheeseman is god
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
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Topic |
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The Creation Museum
