| Author |
 Topic  |
|
awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
 Posted - 05/29/2007 : 15:25:14
|
I believe that other people have a right to believe in whatever they want. whether they are Muslim, Buddhist, or whatever. and if I respect them for their faith, then i would expect the same respect for what i believe. People can agree to disagree, but what really has upset me is that there are scientist opposing the Creation Museum to the point they want it closed, because it would cause confusion in children. I love studying other ancient cultures and i will honestly say that i have run across things that have made me think hard about my faith, but in the end i trust God and my faith is in him. I can't explain evolution or the evidence supporting it, but i have faith that it fits into creation somehow. It is not for me to know. It is for me to have Faith. besides i have researched to find out if there is any evidence discounting what the bible says, and i haven't found it yet. In fact, I have read where discrepancies in the whole dating process is where they are getting the date of about 6000 years ago.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders |
 |
|
|
darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 15:34:56
|
Are you saying there were dinosaurs 6000 years ago?
People can agree to disagree, and we can respect that other people have different beliefs. But there is only one reality, and not all beliefs or opinions can be correct. (I should add that there are things we don't and can't know (i.e. whether God exists) and thus while you think he does and I think he doesn't. We can't both be right, but we don't know who is wrong). Just because someone believes it doesn't make it so. |
Edited by - darwin on 05/29/2007 15:37:00 |
|
|
|
bumblebeeboy2
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2638 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 15:35:10
|
Surely the evidence is at least evolution and dinosaurs dating back millions of years? This is the bit I really don't understand, maybe I'm naive and accept things, but dinosaurs didn't live at the same time as humans, I'm quite sure that is 'a fact' - the problem in disproving the bible is a) these events happened so long ago and b) a lot of it is quite vague in terms of locations, the year etc... So yeah historians can say yeah this may have happened around then, this could be what it refers to, and that makes it incredibly difficult to disprove IMHO.
http://www.myspace.com/monkeyhelperband http://www.myspace.com/imnimrodsson |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 15:45:24
|
at the risk of losing all credibility I might have by paraphrasing Richard Dawkins, it's impossible to 'disprove' faiths. If I say I believe that a chocolate teapot orbits the earth and has magical powers to avoid detection, then you're going to laugh at me. But it's just as valid as believing in God (probability-wise).
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
|
|
|
awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 15:51:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Are you saying there were dinosaurs 6000 years ago?
People can agree to disagree, and we can respect that other people have different beliefs. But there is only one reality, and not all beliefs or opinions can be correct. (I should add that there are things we don't and can't know (i.e. whether God exists) and thus while you think he does and I think he doesn't. We can't both be right, but we don't know who is wrong). Just because someone believes it doesn't make it so.
i am saying that anything is possible if you believe in the God that i believe in. Really guys i am not trying to convert anyone. i believe this is an argument that people will never agree over. that is why i said that i respect others for their beliefs and all i want in return is respect for mine. In fact, i don't believe i have said anything really in opposition to scientist or evolution, only to explain my belief. Honestly, dinosaurs and humans at the same time seems a bit strange to me, but like i said that is where my faith comes in. I do not deny the evidence of evolution, only that i believe it fits into creation somehow.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders |
Edited by - awestruck on 05/29/2007 15:53:03 |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 15:56:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
at the risk of losing all credibility I might have by paraphrasing Richard Dawkins, it's impossible to 'disprove' faiths. If I say I believe that a chocolate teapot orbits the earth and has magical powers to avoid detection, then you're going to laugh at me. But it's just as valid as believing in God (probability-wise).
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr
aye - when the chocolate teapot gets written about in a book and passed on from generation to generation, suddenly it becomes a valid form of belief...
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 16:04:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
at the risk of losing all credibility I might have by paraphrasing Richard Dawkins, it's impossible to 'disprove' faiths. If I say I believe that a chocolate teapot orbits the earth and has magical powers to avoid detection, then you're going to laugh at me. But it's just as valid as believing in God (probability-wise).
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr
aye - when the chocolate teapot gets written about in a book and passed on from generation to generation, suddenly it becomes a valid form of belief...
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline
exactly my point
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
|
|
|
awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 16:07:07
|
That is why i said to agree to disagree, because these sort of arguments never get resolved.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 16:10:25
|
but it's fun giving it a try, isn't it?
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
|
|
|
darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 16:18:13
|
| But agreeing to disagree implies that both opinions are equally right. And ignores facts and evidence. |
|
|
|
bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 16:20:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Are you saying there were dinosaurs 6000 years ago?
People can agree to disagree, and we can respect that other people have different beliefs. But there is only one reality, and not all beliefs or opinions can be correct. (I should add that there are things we don't and can't know (i.e. whether God exists) and thus while you think he does and I think he doesn't. We can't both be right, but we don't know who is wrong). Just because someone believes it doesn't make it so.
i am saying that anything is possible if you believe in the God that i believe in. Really guys i am not trying to convert anyone. i believe this is an argument that people will never agree over. that is why i said that i respect others for their beliefs and all i want in return is respect for mine. In fact, i don't believe i have said anything really in opposition to scientist or evolution, only to explain my belief. Honestly, dinosaurs and humans at the same time seems a bit strange to me, but like i said that is where my faith comes in. I do not deny the evidence of evolution, only that i believe it fits into creation somehow.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders
Spending a few hours or days reading through the feedback and information on this site ought to give you food for thought.
http://www.talkorigins.org/
No attempt to convert anyone either but I must confess that I find it very difficult to understand a firm belief by anybody that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. I remember vividly treking down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon a number of years ago. The history and sheer age of the Earth was there to be seen in the canyon walls.
 The humble apple |
|
|
|
yingguoguizi
- FB Fan -
China
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 20:13:51
|
| Anyone read the "God Delusion" by the (above mentioned) Richard Dawkins? I thought it was an awesome book, and would recommend it to anyone interested in the creationist / evolution debate. Even if you don't agree with Dawkins' final conclusions, It'd still be an interesting read. |
|
|
|
remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 01:00:10
|
All this is really incredible. How can creationists exists? I can understand one believes in "intelligent design", but Creation in 6000 years? Have they ever taught something?
People like Awestruck are dangerous, it doesn't matter the proof, their belief are stronger than simple evidence. Under a fake tolerant posture (I agree to disagree blah blah), they fucking don't care of what you say. You don't need to talk to anyone, awestruck, you'ld better write your own blog than coming on a forum. Talking without being able to change your opinion is like masturbation, it's just sterile.
"un jour tu connaitra cette detresse de pres ou de loin, je peux te le jurer" - Ofabsis |
|
|
|
tisasawath
= Cult of Ray =
Wallis and Futuna Islands
783 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 01:00:38
|
ok, i've gathered so far from this thread:
thinking and believing are mutually exclusive, yet both are present in humans
q1: if god is responsible for thinking and believing qualities of humans, does he/she/it want us to think about him/her/it or believe in him/her/it?
q2: if the evolution process is responsible for thinking and believing qualities of humans, where will it take us (as a fitter species): a super-thinker, a super-believer, or a simultaneous believer-thinker (blinker)?
fuk, i'm thinking again
-----
AAAAWWWWWRRRIIGGHHTTTTT !! ! |
|
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 01:11:27
|
Anyone who is quoting Dawkins is dead to me.
The creation vs. evolution argument is pointless and anyone who pits one against the other has no understanding of either and needs to go and do some reading.
And arguing details in so grand an issue is also terribly pointless. A non believer asks a Christian if they think the world is 6,000 years old. If the Christian says yes the non believer thinks they are a fool and will back themselves up with 'facts', if they say no the non believer thinks they've proven that the Christians faith doesn't stand up to much. This isn't a discussion, it's a cockfight.
Idiot. |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 01:13:14
|
phew! glad I paraphrased.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
|
|
|
OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
469 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 01:39:31
|
Although I find the creationist movement disturbing, to me atheists and believers are quite close together in respect to their uncompromising opinions. Surely, in the end, being agnostic is the most honest and logical position to take. I don't think this is a cop out, it just expresses the absolute and inescapable bottom line, that is - NOBODY knows for sure. Obviously I'm speaking as someone who's not been brought up with any kind of religion.
I know that is a simplistic way of looking at things and doesn't get us anywhere. Just seems obvious to me. |
Edited by - OLDMANOTY on 05/30/2007 01:41:33 |
|
|
|
darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 01:46:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Anyone who is quoting Dawkins is dead to me.
The creation vs. evolution argument is pointless and anyone who pits one against the other has no understanding of either and needs to go and do some reading.
And arguing details in so grand an issue is also terribly pointless. A non believer asks a Christian if they think the world is 6,000 years old. If the Christian says yes the non believer thinks they are a fool and will back themselves up with 'facts', if they say no the non believer thinks they've proven that the Christians faith doesn't stand up to much. This isn't a discussion, it's a cockfight.
Idiot.
I disagree.
1) Dawkins's Selfish Gene is one of the greatest books in biology.
2) Why does pitting Creation vs. Evolution show a lack of understanding. Some people claim that there's is no evolution and all species were created in their present form. They're opposing ideas. They are pitted against one another whether you like it or not. If you believe in evolution and want it to be taught then you have to fight against this common idea and all attempts to push Intelligent Design in school cirriculums (such as that museum). Now, I would partially agree that evolution isn't about the origin of life, but many people that believe in creation aren't just stopping at the origin.
3) What do you mean by 'facts'? Why the scare quotes? Do you think there's a possibility that the fossil record doesn't prove (beyond any reasonable doubt) that Earth is older than 6000 years. What is being done in this discussion and in American politics is the attempt to say that beliefs are equal to knowledge. It's dangerous notion that really means we don't need facts or schools. All you have to do is believe something. You can just believe there's no global warming. As Stephen Colbert's parody says, we should "think with the gut, not with the head."
4) I think it's a mistake to think that Christians need to be defended. They're far, far more powerful than any atheist. In the USA atheist are one of the most despised groups of people. You can't be elected to public office in the USA if you don't claim Jesus and God as your guiding lights. |
Edited by - darwin on 05/30/2007 01:47:48 |
|
|
|
Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 01:57:25
|
It's the other way round here.
 |
|
|
|
Jefrey
= Cult of Ray =
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 02:01:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by awestruck
Disclaimer: This is my belief, i am in no way trying to cram christianity down anyone's throat and I respect other's beliefs. I say this only because it seems like in America they are trying to make God and Jesus into ugly words. 
Actually, it's only the extremists on both sides that are making God and Jesus into dirty words in America. Unfortunately, they are the only ones getting TV time. The other 70% of us just live normal lives.
Faith is obviously totally subjective and impossible to argue. I think what gets people angry about faith is that they try to argue it anyway. If you have faith, you've made up your mind and no one is going to change it.
It's like putting a political or religious bumper sticker on your car. It doesn't change anyone's mind. All it really does is make the person that disagrees with you angry. What does that accomplish?
== jeffamerica == |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 02:03:35
|
I don't think it is Cheeseman. I've always felt that an openly atheist candidate running for election as an MP would have no chance of getting in, regardless of their party politics. Having said that, it would seem hard to believe there are no athiests in Parliament.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
Edited by - Llamadance on 05/30/2007 02:08:17 |
|
|
|
Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 02:06:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
I don't think it is Cheeseman. Have we ever had an openly atheist Prime Minister?
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr
Compared to America, it's very much lip service though, surely? I'm in a massive minority as a Christian; I don't mind, and I'm not going to rupture a gut over an argument here, I've made that mistake before...
|
|
|
|
darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 02:08:20
|
This isn't about faith. The original topic was evolution. It wasn't the origin of life or the existence of God. It was about whether species have evolved over the history of the Earth. That is a topic that we have evidence on. We can look at the fossil record. We can look at evolution that is occurring now (finches, sticklebacks, diseases, flowering dates in response to global warming). We can set up experiments and cause evolution to happen.
So, if someone believes otherwise that's ok? If someone believes 2 + 2 = 5, is that ok? |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 02:12:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
I don't think it is Cheeseman. Have we ever had an openly atheist Prime Minister?
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr
Compared to America, it's very much lip service though, surely? I'm in a massive minority as a Christian; I don't mind, and I'm not going to rupture a gut over an argument here, I've made that mistake before...
sorry, I edited my reply as it seemed a bit trite. Hopefully this isn't seen as an argument, just a discussion. As jefrey said, arguing won't get us anywhere, but sometimes it's interesting to see how others view things - give us all food for thought.
Maybe where we live differs, but the church is still pretty strong around here. I've never considered Christianity anything like a minority in the UK.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
|
|
|
Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 02:12:43
|
quote:
darwin Posted - 05/29/2007 : 16:18:13 But agreeing to disagree implies that both opinions are equally right. And ignores facts and evidence.
for me it sez "you have your opinion and I have mine and the two shall coexist harmoniously without us throwing them at each other anymore." the statement doesn't attempt to qualify either opinion.
--
Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs. |
|
|
|
Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 02:15:20
|
Steve, maybe I just have an oppression complex, hehe.
|
|
|
|
Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 02:21:39
|
I meant to say Awestruck, that "God made man in his own image" Genesis 1-26 quote is mistranslated. It actually reads "Let us make man in our image under our likeness." The Old Testament refers to Elohim, which is plural, i.e. gods, not God. Which might pull into focus some of the sci-fi parts of the Bible.
--
Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs. |
|
|
|
tisasawath
= Cult of Ray =
Wallis and Futuna Islands
783 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 02:23:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
If someone believes 2 + 2 = 5, is that ok?
i believe it's a great song
-----
AAAAWWWWWRRRIIGGHHTTTTT !! ! |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 03:04:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
4) I think it's a mistake to think that Christians need to be defended. They're far, far more powerful than any atheist. In the USA atheist are one of the most despised groups of people. You can't be elected to public office in the USA if you don't claim Jesus and God as your guiding lights.
Pete Stark recently became the first member of Congress to openly state he didn't believe in God
Reading about it, atheism seems more common in UK politics, but I haven't found a current MP who has stated it. Robin Cook and Donald Dewar (both now dead) were both atheists.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
|
|
|
OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
469 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 03:32:18
|
Blair on the decision to go to war with Iraq: "If you have faith in these things then you realise that judgement is made by other people. If you believe in God, it's made by God as well".
Does it make any difference if a few MP's don't believe? |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 03:41:43
|
Not sure what you're getting at OLDMANOTY, but I suspect it makes a difference to the electorate which is why openly atheist MP's are relatively uncommon. There's an interesting article here which talks a bit about Blair's belief in God and the mixing of faith with politics.
I can't believe I'm linking to a Michael Portillo article, ffs. Kill me now.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
|
|
|
OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
469 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 04:04:08
|
| That is an interesting article, Portillo seems far more reasonable these days. "..men of power who take instruction from unseen forces are essentially fanatics" - that kind of sums it up for me. Sorry, going off topic somewhat. |
|
|
|
cptnpasty
- FB Fan -
Spain
161 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 04:17:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
This isn't about faith. The original topic was evolution. It wasn't the origin of life or the existence of God. It was about whether species have evolved over the history of the Earth. That is a topic that we have evidence on. We can look at the fossil record. We can look at evolution that is occurring now (finches, sticklebacks, diseases, flowering dates in response to global warming). We can set up experiments and cause evolution to happen.
So, if someone believes otherwise that's ok? If someone believes 2 + 2 = 5, is that ok?
I'm afraid that, with what seems to be the current interpretation of "respect", it doesseem to be ok if someone believes that 2+2=5.
Creationists and/or fundamentalists seem to be arguing these days that to question their beliefs, or to be seen to be hindering their efforts to teach their (and sometimes our) children that man has historically co-existed with vegetarian dinosaurs (!), is disrespectful!!!
As someone who takes a rational approach, or tries to, i would see the courteous questioning of these beliefs as deeply respectful, and the failure to question them as patronising, dismissive, and neglectful. |
|
|
|
awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 07:10:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by remig
All this is really incredible. How can creationists exists? I can understand one believes in "intelligent design", but Creation in 6000 years? Have they ever taught something?
People like Awestruck are dangerous, it doesn't matter the proof, their belief are stronger than simple evidence. Under a fake tolerant posture (I agree to disagree blah blah), they fucking don't care of what you say. You don't need to talk to anyone, awestruck, you'ld better write your own blog than coming on a forum. Talking without being able to change your opinion is like masturbation, it's just sterile.
"un jour tu connaitra cette detresse de pres ou de loin, je peux te le jurer" - Ofabsis
for one thing, i have not attacked anyone on this forum for what they believe. secondly, i have said that it is hard for me to believe that humans and dinosaurs existed at the same time. All i did was comment on why i wanted to go to the creation museum. My own personal reason. No different than anyone else on this forum explaining why they don't like a certain song or why they don't like bluefinger. I expressed that i was in no way trying to make anyone believe what I do and that all i was doing is saying what i believe to be true. I think I have been respectful of everyone on this forum thread and for you to attack me is just plain ignorant. the dangerous people are the ones unwilling to LISTEN to other's opinions, whether they agree or not.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders |
Edited by - awestruck on 05/30/2007 07:25:28 |
|
|
|
cptnpasty
- FB Fan -
Spain
161 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 07:27:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by OLDMANOTY
Although I find the creationist movement disturbing, to me atheists and believers are quite close together in respect to their uncompromising opinions. Surely, in the end, being agnostic is the most honest and logical position to take. I don't think this is a cop out, it just expresses the absolute and inescapable bottom line, that is - NOBODY knows for sure. Obviously I'm speaking as someone who's not been brought up with any kind of religion.
I know that is a simplistic way of looking at things and doesn't get us anywhere. Just seems obvious to me.
I think a lot of people who don't believe in God would consider Atheism more honest than Agnosticism. Taking an atheist position isn't just a negative - for a lot of people like me it's about asserting the argument that it's humanity where our hope lies, and that theism is an arcane system that holds back our development - you can't fully sign up to that positive way of looking at it whilst holding on to agnosticism. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
The Creation Museum
