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Madame
- FB Fan -
62 Posts |
 Posted - 05/27/2007 : 08:04:11
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"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
(Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus)
Discuss! |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 08:41:15
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Disagree. If this is true, it presumes that the only effective way to learn something is by listening to a teacher/expert rather than taking part in something personally. I would imagine it difficult to find a teacher who'd agree that lecturing is the only vaild way of teaching. One must be able to speak about a subject whether they're right or wrong otherwise no debate or discourse has any validity.
Fear of saying something wrong holds back a great many people, I'd guess.
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 08:54:00
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I stick my foot in my mouth all the time, and yet I seem to never get wiser for it. I often feel it'd be better if I only listened. (Take this post, for example.)
 Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 09:28:39
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In teaching often at the beginning of a lesson I will present some strange question to the students that straight off they usually have no way of answering. What does May day have to do with chromatography? What do monks and eukaryotic cells have in common? Why are a kite and a key essential to the running of a lightbulb? If the students were to remain dumb in the face of such questions then they'd never ever progress. They have to explore pathways, offer options and do so without fear of ridicule. I fight to create a comfortable safe environment in a classroom so that even the most seemingly idiotic answer will be welcomed and considered. The whole point of this procedure is to encourage thinking, it doesn't matter if it is right or if it is wrong, if students offer a logical pathway to their answer I'm happy. The rights and wrongs the "facts" will evolve in their own time, through discussion building on that which has come before, but if these kids don't know how to use ideas to progress onto other ideas then there's no point them involving themselves in education.
I'm looking at it from an educational perspective because it's what I'm immersed in at the moment but in a wider sense it holds. In scientific history there has been ideas, see Jean Baptiste Lamarck, which have been vastly ridiculed but have underpinned progression.
Some of the kids I work with have so little confidence in themselves and their ideas simply because they've been told to hush when they've gotten things wrong. Working with kids I need to know their misconceptions before I can, or even better they can, dispel them.
So I think speak always, just be willing to accept that what you say isn't always right and it's not strictly a bad thing.
Idiot. |
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Madame
- FB Fan -
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 09:55:31
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| do you think everything can be said? |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 10:29:55
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well look who's come crawling back.
of the topic, we've been well-trained to show off how much we know, the teacher asks how you get to the bus station and fifty hands go clamouring up. I wouldn't worry too much about the quiet ones, there's power in silence too.
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Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs. |
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that means soda
- FB Fan -
Canada
73 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 10:37:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Madame
do you think everything can be said?
if that is a general, open question to everyone, then
my answer is no, and my example is fairly simple/horrible:
take the case of someone who's gonna die in 10 minutes because they ingested a fatal poison that cannot be cured. Telling him he'll die will completly ruin his last moments, because no one can over pass that shock in such a small amount of time and somehow reach a state of grace and peace.
So I'm not going for that whole honesty thing based on the argument you must give someone the opportunity to say goodbye to their loved ones and all. But in a way, I admit this is just my biased answer because I wouldn't want to know it.
I guess someone thinking the opposite could give me a logical argument stating everything should be said. BUT I'M NOT GONNA AGREE.
Montreal, October 1st 2002 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 12:20:38
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Not in a silence that's caused by fear or self consciousness I don't think Owen. My point is, they can and should if they are moved to. The important thing is that the opportunity is made available. I struggle really hard with getting myself across sometimes through fear of seeming an idiot because I've frequently had judgement passed on me for those times when I haven't been able to find the right words. Give me the right situation and I'll wax lyrical for hours with no concern, but others, I'll choke up and focus on trying not to cry.
And no, I don't think everything can be said, there are some things for which mere words are completely inadequate.
Idiot. |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 12:38:01
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i don't think wittgenstein was promoting ineffability due to fear or embarrassment, but for things that are just completely inexpressible due to their nature.. private sensory experience for example. but i dunno, i didn't pay much attention when we studied the tractatus.
i know he changed his views later though..
"I'm an editor of a major publication" - coastline |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 13:21:53
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| I'm pretty bad at expressing myself ususally, but in the right mood, I can burn the ears off people about things I have an interest in. Which is not necessarily a good thing. |
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Madame
- FB Fan -
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 14:44:52
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
And no, I don't think everything can be said, there are some things for which mere words are completely inadequate.
Idiot.
Everyday language is not the only way of expressing something.
Black milk of daybreak we drink it at evening
we drink it at midday and morning we drink it at night
we drink and we drink
we shovel a grave in the air there you won't lie too cramped
A man lives in the house he plays with his vipers he writes
he writes when it grows dark to Deutschland your golden hair Marguerite
he writes it and steps out of doors and the stars are all sparkling
he whistles his hounds to come close
he whistles his Jews into rows has them shovel a grave in the ground
he orders us strike up and play for the dance
Black milk of daybreak we drink you at night
we drink you at morning and midday we drink you at evening
we drink and we drink
A man lives in the house he plays with his vipers he writes
he writes when it grows dark to Deutschland your golden hair Margeurite
your ashen hair Shulamith we shovel a grave in the air there you won't lie too cramped
He shouts jab this earth deeper you lot there you others sing up and play
he grabs for the rod in his belt he swings it his eyes are blue
jab your spades deeper you lot there you others play on for the dancing
Black milk of daybreak we drink you at night
we drink you at midday and morning we drink you at evening
we drink and we drink
a man lives in the house your goldenes Haar Margeurite
your aschenes Haar Shulamith he plays with his vipers
He shouts play death more sweetly Death is a master from Deutschland
he shouts scrape your strings darker you'll rise then in smoke to the sky
you'll have a grave then in the clouds there you won't lie too cramped
Black milk of daybreak we drink you at night
we drink you at midday Death is a master aus Deutschland
we drink you at evening and morning we drink and we drink
this Death is ein Meister aus Deutschland his eye it is blue
he shoots you with shot made of lead shoots you level and true
a man lives in the house your goldenes Haar Margarete
he looses his hounds on us grants us a grave in the air
he plays with his vipers and daydreams
der Tod is ein Meister aus Deutschland
dein goldenes Haar Margarete
dein aschenes Haar Shulamith
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 19:27:58
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I miss the Holocaust thread.
I got some heaven in my head
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 01:27:18
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quote:
Originally posted by cassandra is
quote:
Originally posted by Newo
there's power in silence too.
--
Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs.
I agree with that
Like use to say old Socrates: "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing".
Also Operation Ivy.
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 06:52:36
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quote:
starmekitten Posted - 05/27/2007 : 12:20:38 Not in a silence that's caused by fear or self consciousness I don't think Owen.
that's fair enough. the silence I meant is the joyful, calm kind where you're so concentrated on your own breathing and the things around you that your mind stops yabbering about what it wants to do next.
--
Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 08:01:20
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
I miss the Holocaust thread.
I got some heaven in my head
you and me both |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 08:24:04
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Opearation Ivy...the ska band? the a-bomb detonation in the Pacific?
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Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 16:03:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Madame
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
(Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus)
Discuss!
"No answer is also an answer." - African proverb
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 16:32:47
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Discuss? Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Sorry.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
Edited by - trobrianders on 05/30/2007 16:34:29 |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
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kelladwella
= Cult of Ray =
Germany
729 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 00:32:02
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| You had too much WINE. |
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Jefrey
= Cult of Ray =
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 01:44:33
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Speech is words, words are symbols. Thereof some things can not be said.
== jeffamerica == |
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Madame
- FB Fan -
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 15:11:33
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Isn't poetry more than words?
Saying I love you
Is not the words I want to hear from you
It's not that I want you
Not to say, but if you only knew
How easy it would be to show me how you feel
More than words is all you have to do to make it real
Then you wouldn't have to say that you love me
Cos I'd already know
What would you do if my heart was torn in two
More than words to show you feel
That your love for me is real
What would you say if I took those words away
Then you couldn't make things new
Just by saying I love you
More than words
Now I've tried to talk to you and make you understand
All you have to do is close your eyes
And just reach out your hands and touch me
Hold me close don't ever let me go
More than words is all I ever needed you to show
Then you wouldn't have to say that you love me
Cos I'd already know
What would you do if my heart was torn in two
More than words to show you feel
That your love for me is real
What would you say if I took those words away
Then you couldn't make things new
Just by saying I love you
More than words
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Agree / Disagree: Ineffability
