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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
 Posted - 05/25/2007 : 02:55:56
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In which we can civilly discuss some weighty topics. Or, make fun of how people look, it's up to you. First topic up for discussion:
"There is indeed, nothing more annoying than to be, for instance, wealthy, of good family, nice looking, fairly intelligent and even good natured, and yet to have no special faculty, no peculiarity even, not one idea of ones own, to be precisely 'like other people'...
To have decent education but to have no idea what to make of it, to have intelligence, but no idea of ones own.
There is an extraordinary multitude of such people in the world, far more than appears. They may, like all other people, be divided into two classes: some of limited intelligence; others much cleverer. The first are happier, nothing is easier for 'ordinary' people of limited intelligence to imagine themselves exeptional and original and to revel in that delusion without the slightest misgiving.
Some men have only to feel the faintest stirring of some kindly and humanitarian emotion to persuade themselves that no one feels as they do. Some have only to meet with some idea by heresay or read some stray page to believe at once that is their own opinion and has sprung spontaneously from their own brain."
Fyodor Dostoevsky - "The Idiot"
Discuss!
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 04:24:56
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Words words words.
 Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 04:41:06
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quote:
Originally posted by coastline
Words words words.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs.
Makes a change.
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 05:00:05
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I know, I know. But I was quoting Shakespeare. Shakespeare, dagnabbit! (Hamlet, Act II, Scene 2)
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 05:41:46
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And Deputy Dawg, apparently. So are you a happy idiot or a miserable intellectual?
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 05:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
And Deputy Dawg, apparently. So are you a happy idiot or a miserable intellectual?
Would one know?
You can confirm the genuineness of the deceased death by clicking on this website
free music | Blackolero | Frank Black & Pixies Tributes |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7446 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 06:01:00
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I don't know about me but I know about you.
Denis
"Can you hear me? I aint got shit to say." |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 08:19:24
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I know people who have excellent memories. I know people who have extremely quick perceptions and can defend any argument. I think they've built up a thick foundation of facts in their brains. This foundation can be used as a defense mechanism. For instance, any fact they attempt to learn which they do not immediately comprehend will then be undermined by the plethora of similar facts, already acquired in their brains, that they do comprehend. The foundation can also be used as a building block. Any fact they attempt to learn which they do immediately comprehend will then be instantly and permanently stored in their memory, because every new fact can be connected to an already acquired one - it's a type of resonance, really. So this is how, I think, Dostoevsky can establish a group of people who have "intelligence" but "no idea of one's own."
One tends to think that his foundation of facts can accommodate for his lack of originality. And societally, he'd be right. Many colleges will accept him for who he is, many jobs will hire him, and many community members will respect his diligence and wish the best for him. The problem that arises from a lack of creativity is that it is consummately annoying, as Dostoyevsky said.
But this is where I disagree with Dostoevsky, or at least that I think Dostoevsky contradicts himself. For the "much cleverer" people that Dostoevsky mentions, it would be annoying to have no power against the inexorable fate of being precisely "like other people". But for the people of "limited intelligence", it sounds like an extremely pleasant, ignorance-is-bliss type of mindset. Yes, it might be annoying from the outside looking in, but the limited are deluded and under the impression that they are, in fact, original. One could argue that it is not annoying in and of itself to be precisely like other people, but rather, it is annoying to be like other people and, additionally, to be consciously aware of that onus. And Camus would probably remind us that the consciousness is actually the interesting part about the whole situation.
What I really wonder about is how far Dostoevsky's labeling is extended. Who among the billions of people living today do have an idea of one's own? What constitutes an original idea? If you disagree with what someone says, is that an idea of your own? On the one hand, you're stepping in and using your own brain to assess the validity of a statement. But on the other hand, the concept of assessing validity is not your own, and the criteria is not your own, and all the arguments you use to disagree with him emanate from the facts that are shelved comfortably in your foundation, which does not include any original ideas. So where do you draw the line? Can everything that seems original be broken down into something derived? Or can you go the other way and claim that even though everything is drawn upon a foundation of acquired facts, you only acquire what you truly appreciate, and your appreciations are yours, not to be had by anybody else, and wholly original?
Personally, I think if you truly appreciate something but have no idea why you appreciate it, then you have an original idea, something totally your own. If you appreciate Shakespeare because his work exhumes the rudiments of human nature, or Dante because his work is extremely influential, than that appreciation is not original. It's based off your foundation, second-hand, and almost learned. However, if you appreciate a chord of added sixth, and can't explain why because your appreciation is unable to be derived from any fact in your foundation, than it is among the facts in your foundation. It is not based off of anything. Contrarily, it is a completely fundamental appreciation from which other appreciations can be based. It is absolute appreciation. And that, to me, is original.
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 08:36:58
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Tre, lock this thread!
Seriously though, people have to be shallow to get by on a a day to day basis. If you questioned everything you'd just want to give up. On the other hand, if you're just full of yourself and swan through life being selfish and thoughtless, you're probaly going to find it hard to cope if/when life throws you a curveball. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 13:10:02
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I see the contradiction in there, definitely. Firstly, it's annoying "to be" intelligent and yet "to have" no special faculty, i.e. it's annoying for that person rather than the world outside. But at the same time, these people are happier than the "cleverer." So I'm not sure I agree with the 'annoying' part, but I definitely see the truth in the final paragraph. I see it in myself sometimes and I definitely see it in others. Not that I'm judgemental *cough*
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 13:30:09
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I think you can be smart enough to see a problem and not recognise a way out of it because your intelligence is limited to the parroting of the opinions of others. The annoying doesn't apply to those who are less clever, (this may be the contradiction?), as the simple will always delude themselves that everything is as dandy as it can be. Man is a fundamentally vain creature. But for those who are evidently intelligent, like the deluded simpleton, they will grab onto an idea and opinion and repeat it ad infinitum unable to accept that it could possibly be wrong or that there may be wiggle room because their thinking is limited. It is relatively easy for those with the faculty of creative and "original" thinking to show these nobodies up. All they have to do is find a deviation from their recycled comfort zone that their current understanding (or lack of) cannot contend with. The sorrows of the cleverer man is always suspecting that plagiarism is all he is good for.
The passage does continue after this to discuss the problem of the cleverer sort of nobody. Those who believe they are great but have doubt that plagues them, those who always feel they are on the brink of something profound and who will, in later years, lament the lack of time to achieve that great something, where, in reality, there isn't enough time in the world as there isn't enough capacity for them to do so.
I've met both sorts. The simple sort are very easy to spot. The paragraph refers to young ladies who crop their hair and wear blue glasses and call themselves nihilists, satisfied that now they have 'convictions'. I've met people who think that way, that their dress or external define their convictions. I've met those who will repeat some steady argument or ideal without flickering (unless they find a new shiny one). Maybe nothing we say is truly original, but there's a difference between mere repetition and more imaginative interpretation.
That's what I think (I hope).
Idiot. |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 13:43:34
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| Frank Zappa came on stage in a suit years ago, and got booed. He responded; "Don't kid yourself-everyone in this room is wearing a uniform." |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 16:15:41
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Hazing according to David Mamet. He's right too. Mind the sheep.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 16:28:03
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Frank Zappa = a man who made good points (and decent music).
quote:
Maybe nothing we say is truly original, but there's a difference between mere repetition and more imaginative interpretation.
I definitely agree with this statement; it's optimistic and hopeful, yet reserved and realistic. I just hope I don't start believing at once that it is my own opinion and that it has sprung spontaneously from my own brain.
By the way, Cheeseman, thanks for starting a thread in which we can civilly discuss some weighty topics. I appreciate it.
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 16:48:52
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quote:
Originally posted by IceCream
Cheeseman, thanks for starting a thread in which we can civilly discuss some weighty topics. I appreciate it.
Indeed.
I thought about the following a lot when I finished school and watched "children of privilege" breeze into the workplace while the rest of us had to actually earn our positions. Now, I see it on a daily basis. [/whine]
There is indeed, nothing more annoying than to be, for instance, wealthy, of good family, nice looking, fairly intelligent and even good natured, and yet to have no special faculty, no peculiarity even, not one idea of ones own,
I got some heaven in my head
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houstonguthrie
- FB Fan -
187 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 19:08:28
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| aren't we all just the same person anyways when you get right down to it? We're just a bunch of cells in one big body (life). We're like individual drops of water in one big ocean. It's all out there for any of us to have - one guy plucks this thought and another guy plucks the other. Some pluck some really bad thoughts but articulate them really well. Others pluck a pretty good thought and then don't articulate it so well - kind of like I've just done. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 19:15:24
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quote:
Originally posted by houstonguthrie
aren't we all just the same person anyways when you get right down to it? We're just a bunch of cells in one big body (life). We're like individual drops of water in one big ocean.
No, we're not. Isn't that the point being made here? Some people have stuff handed to them and others don't.
I got some heaven in my head
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 11:46:36
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 19:07:50
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best....thread derailment....ever
(tho it's dead on topic, at the same time)
I got some heaven in my head
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2007 : 05:56:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl
Frank Zappa came on stage in a suit years ago, and got booed. He responded; "Don't kid yourself-everyone in this room is wearing a uniform."
that is a fantastic quote.
"I'm not much like my generation,
Their music only hurts my ears" ~ Kasey Chambers |
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Madame
- FB Fan -
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 15:16:29
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A guy who works in the IT department of the bank where I work is a Zappa fan, and got to interview his wife, and became a good friend of his daughter (the one with a weird name). Anyway, this guy told me that Zappa died because his wife wouldn't have oral sex with him. Apparently there is a medical explanation to this. Any doctors on the forum?
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Agree/Disagree: "The impudence of stupidity"
