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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
 Posted - 08/11/2006 : 01:36:52
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OK, Two disclaimers: As someone who only got FM/RM recently, I haven't read much of the old threads. Secondly, I'm a huge FB fan, owning every FB or Pixies album (with the exception of Oddballs and FRANKblackFRANCIS), and many B-sides. I've been two 9 FB shows (7 FB$TC, 1 Pixies, 1 Solo) which is not bad considering I live in Israel.
That said, I feel recently Frank has just been releasing too much. FM/RM is the epicenter of that, it's just BLOATED. I mean there are many great, great songs, but way too many songs should have remaind B-Sides. For example, Dirty Old Town and Fare Thee Well should have remained live covers; Raiderman is genuinely slight. I think FMRM should have been released together with Honeycomb as one CD. I realise that some of my least favs would be other people's classics, but I for one would much rather have one great 12 song CD, then 17 or 18 Great songs scattered in three albums.
I think it would make sense commercially as well. A "comeback" album after 3-4 years without any records would make a bigger bang, to quote the stones, like Bob Dylan's MODERN TIMES. A best of would also probably get more favourable reviews, thus helping sales.
Maybe Frank should do what Lou Reed did with "The Raven" release a single CD "highlights" from the double CD's complete ouevre.
OK, that's just my thoughts.
I also think it would make |
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Thomas
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1615 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2006 : 06:08:54
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I got FM/RM at a used store in Sarasota while on vacation last month for $9.99. Played RM once in the mini-van, but with the kids in the car it was hard to take a good listen, or any feel for a song. My kids favorite listen while in the car these days has been 'Saturday Morning Cartoons Greatest Hits', 'The Raconteurs' and 'The Comas'. Ever since buying FM/RM I've yet to give it another listen. I'm afraid it might get the Cult of Ray treatment from me. Which means it might be years before I give it another go. It's a shame he didn't flip flop the release of 'Snake Oil' and 'One More Road For The Hit' and make FM/RM only available for download. Those I'd buy in CD format in a heart beat.
"Our Love is Rice and Beans and Horses Lard" |
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theonecontender
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
565 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2006 : 07:57:01
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I can agree with you partly, but I think you're missing the intention of this album. I don't think this album was meant to be a block-buster hit that reclaims old fans and creates an army of new Frank freaks. It seems to be an album of tunes that he has put out for himself and the uber fans who want everything releases despite the quality (I am one of those). Commercially speaking, FMRM could have been an amazing 12 song album, but that doesn't mean that he wanted it to be. For those of us who care to make such an album to circulate to friends, I suggest burning a cd of the 12 hot tracks.
1c |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2006 : 08:06:30
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My argument is simple - he releases as much as he wants - its up to us as consumers to make the decision of whether or not to purchase it. If you feel its too much, wait til there is a lull, and then get it.
-Brian - http://bvsrant.blogspot.com |
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erotic_vulture
- FB Fan -
14 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2006 : 23:05:30
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NO, NO, NO! I don't trust Frank, let alone you to pick 12 songs out of 36 or whatever to construct one album.
I like nearly every song on Honeycomb and FM/RM. Yes- my favorites could have become one master album- but that's really catering to the critics. As long as the material is strong- I want as much as I can get!
You would have cut out Dirty Old Town, Raiderman and Fare Thee Well- all favorites of mine on the new album.
Stop complaining and be glad that Frank is so prolific and values his fans above the critics and the general public. |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1008 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2006 : 23:23:42
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| im happy hes releasing so much stuff, if you want you can make a compilation of his past few albums, itd be exactly the same...the more the merrier |
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kfs
= Cult of Ray =
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 00:50:38
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| You can never have TOO MUCH FRANK! |
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mikaelp75
- FB Fan -
131 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 04:03:54
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Do you by any chance think Blonde on Blonde, Exile on Main Street, London Calling etc should be single albums as well, mr Attention Span?
I don't dislike anything off FMRM (or Honeycomb) even though there are some slightly lesser songs that are totally redeemed by the musicianship. |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1008 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 15:15:35
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| after listening to fastman raiderman around 5-10 times i love almost every song (dislike the reid palley songs and dirty old town) |
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Thomas
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1615 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2006 : 19:03:38
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Jon Tiven? gotta be.
quote:
Originally posted by erotic_vulture
NO, NO, NO! I don't trust Frank, let alone you to pick 12 songs out of 36 or whatever to construct one album.
I like nearly every song on Honeycomb and FM/RM. Yes- my favorites could have become one master album- but that's really catering to the critics. As long as the material is strong- I want as much as I can get!
You would have cut out Dirty Old Town, Raiderman and Fare Thee Well- all favorites of mine on the new album.
Stop complaining and be glad that Frank is so prolific and values his fans above the critics and the general public.
"Our Love is Rice and Beans and Horses Lard" |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 16:35:17
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| there is never such a think as too much frank. that's just like saying that there's such a thing as too much love or sex. |
Edited by - Daisy Girl on 08/13/2006 16:35:33 |
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ScottP
= Cult of Ray =
USA
618 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 19:00:16
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| ...or too much turkey.. |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 21:01:22
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| or too much thought. |
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 00:47:04
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| The point is, until recently, Frank kept lots of really great songs as B-Sides rather then overload his albums. Think about tracks like "Announcement", "Pray a Little Faster", "Men of Steel" and "The Changing of the Guards". Don't you think that those and many-other songs are superior to much of the songs in FM/RM? I don't think Frank's losing his touch, but why did he change the attitude that worked so well in producing albums like "Teenager of the Year"? |
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cellar_door
- FB Fan -
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 09:51:47
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I love how people presume to know what the best plan for releasing music is.
Newsflash so called Frank Black fans:
This is Franks music. he writes it and performs it because HE loves it. If he was making music that appealed to the most people possible, do you think he'd do it like this ? This is his art. Nobody told Van Gogh or Picasso how to paint. Ever been to the Picasso museum ? it's full of a lot of paintings that some of you might consider sub-standard. Does that mean he can't paint them ? Frank puts songs together because he wants to. He said his favorite album was devil's workshop. An album that many people consider their least favorite. And guess what ? He doesn't care. He's never done what anybody thought was the "best strategy". He does what he loves. And it's a crying shame to think anybody other then Frank could come out and say "why is this song on here ?". it's on there because it's HIS song. If you don't like it, don't buy it. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 10:06:04
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While I agree that FB should (and does) put out whatever he wants...
1) Being condescending to those who disagree is neither going to earn you their respect nor persuade. Instead, you make yourself an antagonist.
2) Criticism of art is as old as (and much older than) either Van Gogh or Picasso. It's great that they painted all these things but does that mean everyone MUST love them and gush incessantly?
Now I agree that FB puts out what he wants and I also prefer it that way rather than trying to "write to his audience". Even if it means songs that I dislike. But I can still dislike them. You might love them. That's the beauty of art and why it's important for any artist to put out what they enjoy; there will otherwise never be a consensus on what is 'release-worthy'.
So please knock off the patronizing talking down because there are people who are fans that don't care for his more straight-forward period and prefer his more abstract works and that you disagree does not make you more correct. This is somewhere where we SHOULD disagree and debate intelligently with examples and discussion, not ridiculous statements like "so-called fans".
 "No man remains quite what he was when he recognizes himself." |
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cellar_door
- FB Fan -
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 10:26:46
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One key concept you may not grasp:
You're allowed to dislike every song you want. You can dislike the whole album. I don't mind at all. What bothers me is saying you want him to build albums differently. That's rubbish. The only person with input on how an album gets built is Frank (and to a certain extent the team working with him). So people who say "too much frank" rub me the wrong way. It's exactly the right amount of Frank. Because he's the only person who knows how much that is. if it's 40 songs, it's 40 songs. Because it's HIS work. And you can totally dislike all 40 if you want. I would never presume to deny you that right. I'm talking about all this talk of having any kind of opinion on how an artist will construct something that is THEIRS.
I was a hawk and I just flew...yeah
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 10:46:54
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Please re-read #1. And then, when you have 'grasped' this, I will state again that while I agree with you entirely, you are being condescending. But perhaps I'm over-tired.
"No man remains quite what he was when he recognizes himself." |
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cellar_door
- FB Fan -
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 10:54:39
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oh I'm totally being condescending. If there was a button that would indicate that tone, I'd have set it. I didn't know I had to wear kid gloves in here. I didn't use any bad words, and I'd hope that a little internet post wasn't going to make any freak out. But you can feel free to remove all the condescending parts, and just take this to heart:
enjoy the good songs, skip the ones you dislike, and let the album construction stay in the hands of the man.
How's that ?
I was a hawk and I just flew...yeah
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 10:55:06
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I don't know if there is a more appropriate thread to add my two cents on the general debate of the Frank "sound", but this seems as good as any of the multiple other threads relating to the issue. I think the S/T first album and TOTY reprsent a particular Franks sound or era, and in recreating that sound live, Frank felt that something was missing. Layers of overdubs and synths sound great on an album, but live I think that concerts from that era felt a bit flat (I know this only from the poor quality bootlegs I've heard, so I may be way off base). I love those songs dearly, and I enjoy the hell out of hearing them live (on his more recent tours), but I recall an interview with Frank where he described his dissatifaction with the "facisimile" of a live experience feel to his studio work, and thus this sort of "purification" or recoridng began with Cult of Ray. A stripped down, more immediate, more "real" sound. This eventually led to the live to 2-track era, and live shows essentially sounded just as good if not better than the albums.
Now Frank is doing the same thing, only with many more players and instruments per song (which really began with bringing EDF back for Dog in the Sand). So as for why Frank doesn't write quirky TOTY era song anymore; I think he does, they're just filtered differently. The seeds of what Frank plays today were sown long ago, from the folk of the Pixies (look at all the acoustic guitars on SR/COP) to the twang of TOTY (Speedy Marie, for example). It's all disco.
he's back jack smoking crack find him if you want to get found
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Edited by - speedy_m on 08/15/2006 10:56:54 |
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fbc
-= Modulator =-
United Kingdom
4903 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 11:17:10
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"(look at all the acoustic guitars on SR/COP)"
i'm looking i'm looking but all i see is breasts and a hairy back. sorry, speedy, i couldn't resist for the first time ever. love the post, though! it's all disco indeed. make me wanna feel, makes me wanna try, makes me wanna blow the stars from the sky. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 12:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by cellar_door
oh I'm totally being condescending. If there was a button that would indicate that tone, I'd have set it. I didn't know I had to wear kid gloves in here. I didn't use any bad words, and I'd hope that a little internet post wasn't going to make any freak out. But you can feel free to remove all the condescending parts, and just take this to heart:
enjoy the good songs, skip the ones you dislike, and let the album construction stay in the hands of the man.
How's that ?
I was a hawk and I just flew...yeah
Nobody's asking for kid gloves, and nobody freaked out. But when you're telling people who disagree they're not 'real fans' and things like that, I fail to see how this produces meaningful discussion. Instead, just hostility. That was my point. Relax.
And I agree with Speedy as well, very nicely put. On the other hand, I think we all know that skipping FB songs you don't like is no way to get into the man's new material. :)
"No man remains quite what he was when he recognizes himself." |
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cellar_door
- FB Fan -
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 13:29:53
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Well I took a little something
to make my worries go away
I hopped onto frankblack.net
and I started to feel okay
But I heard the doorbell ringin'
and opened up to see
that your annoying posts were waiting there for me :)
I was a hawk and I just flew...yeah
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 13:35:08
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Always a pleasure.
"No man remains quite what he was when he recognizes himself." |
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cellar_door
- FB Fan -
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 13:39:44
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lol I was hoping that 10065 posts later, maybe the internet could still be fun for you. I've got 37 huge posts in a year on here. I may have a bit less of a stake in the whole thing. Anyways I'm not nearly the meanie you'd make me out to be. Just just the weeeb. 1010101000111100101.
I was a hawk and I just flew...yeah
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 23:29:16
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3 Points: First, I don't necessarily prefer Frank's older music to his newest music. I think much of Frank's best output is in recent times: "Massif Central" "Elijah" "Honeycomb" and many, many others. I only disagree about the ways Frank choses to release the albums.
Second, Frank has clearly expressed in interviews that he doesn't think much about "The record" as such. He considers the record an vehicle for delivering the songs. Given that what Frank cares about are the songs rather than the albums, I think of what I've said as constrctive criticism that does not go to the heart of the man's work. My criticism may or may not be to the point, but it's silly to suggest that it's out of place because only Frank Black decides when enough is enough.
Third Point: People raised Picasso, but I'd like to mention Dali. Now Dali is one of the greatest painters of the 20th century. He has painted dozens of works each of which is enough to make his a master.
Nonetheless, I've been to at least three Dali exhibitions, which contained none of his great works. Instead, they contained various sketches, pieces of statue, and clearly minor work. To me, the existence of these exhibitions reduces the value of Dali's overall reputation. Once I thought that, if I'm going to see a Dali exhibition, it's going to be brilliant. But now I know that it won't necessarily be so. It may very well be very disappointing.
I don't want to get that Feeling with Frank Black. Until "Honeycomb" I awated every new FB album with great anticipation, reverently listening to each track. But Honeycomb and FM/RM have such a feeling of being thrown together, I'm afraid I'll lose this enthusiasm when the Next album comes along. I really don't want to.
Now, if I thought Frank Black has "lost" it, or that his style is too different from what I like, I guess I'd just had to resign myself to the inevitable. But I actually like the direction Frank is going, I still love his songwriting. I still think he's the greatest rock'n'roll musician currently working. I just wish he'd edit himself more. |
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Someone
- FB Fan -
94 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 11:08:22
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| What kind of fan wants less? I love how prolific he is. I want more. |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 15:34:29
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Too much of anything is bad, but if you can have quality with quantity, who's complaining?
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 16:44:47
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When BLD & DW came out I saw a lot of reviews where they said "Take your favorite songs from both albums and burn the album you want".
I like that. I'd always rather have more songs- they're gonna charge basically the same whether there's 10 songs or 30.
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 22:22:23
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I like one of Frank's own explanations for why FMRM turned out so long. It's partly because he doesn't know when he's gonna be able to put out his NEXT record. Labels like to put about two years between an artist's album releases these days. I don't even know how FMRM came out not even a year after Honeycomb. That's unusual (and yes, he was able to turn out the records year-in/year-out with Spinart, but his label these days is a higher profile, major label-affiliated thing and the ways are different.)
Another thing Frank's been saying in interviews is something I've been saying for YEARS. In the 60s and 70s, Frank Black rate of output was not only normal, but EXPECTED. Look at the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan, Beach Boys, etc. in the 60s. They were putting out two, sometimes three, albums a year for a time. There's a good two and a half decades or so where hardly a single year went by without a new Dylan, Neil Young, Rolling Stones album. Frank woulda been comfortable as a musician in that era, I imagine. |
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2006 : 05:06:40
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OK, but the 60s are over :-). The truth is that currently, Frank is hurting himself commercially by releasing too much material, and while quality is a matter of taste, there is a fairly widespread feeling that he's not doing himself a favour by releasing so much on that front, either.
Omer |
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fbc
-= Modulator =-
United Kingdom
4903 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2006 : 05:47:23
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The fairly widepread feeling haven't done anything for fB anyway, even when he released shorter albums.
Unfortunately, I think he'll never get the respect he deserves from the judge and jury until it's too late.
But who cares, we dig him, right?
Thank Frank he's never been in it for the money or mass appeal. It's always and only about the music
(Pixies reunion excluded) |
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Sam
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
514 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2006 : 05:52:52
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quote:
Originally posted by speedy_m
I don't know if there is a more appropriate thread to add my two cents on the general debate of the Frank "sound", but this seems as good as any of the multiple other threads relating to the issue. I think the S/T first album and TOTY reprsent a particular Franks sound or era, and in recreating that sound live, Frank felt that something was missing. Layers of overdubs and synths sound great on an album, but live I think that concerts from that era felt a bit flat (I know this only from the poor quality bootlegs I've heard, so I may be way off base). I love those songs dearly, and I enjoy the hell out of hearing them live (on his more recent tours), but I recall an interview with Frank where he described his dissatifaction with the "facisimile" of a live experience feel to his studio work, and thus this sort of "purification" or recoridng began with Cult of Ray. A stripped down, more immediate, more "real" sound. This eventually led to the live to 2-track era, and live shows essentially sounded just as good if not better than the albums.
Now Frank is doing the same thing, only with many more players and instruments per song (which really began with bringing EDF back for Dog in the Sand). So as for why Frank doesn't write quirky TOTY era song anymore; I think he does, they're just filtered differently. The seeds of what Frank plays today were sown long ago, from the folk of the Pixies (look at all the acoustic guitars on SR/COP) to the twang of TOTY (Speedy Marie, for example). It's all disco.
he's back jack smoking crack find him if you want to get found
Just a quick reply to say you have got to get your hands on FB and TMBG live at electric ladyland and also The FB boot "No big Deal".
These live shows are the furthest from flat sounding you can imagine. Beautifully played guitars, bass and drums with keyboards and sax for good measure. They were obviously some excellent shows with fine renditions of their respective albums.
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junkmale
- FB Fan -
79 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2006 : 04:30:12
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With greatest repsect to the man, who can release whatever and whenever he likes as far as I'm concerned, I have to agree with the original post of the thread. While there are no really unlistenable songs on FMRM, as I posted in another thread I think some pruning would haver served the album better. A selection of the best 12 tracks would have made a more consistent album, with the rest saved for b-sides etc. This trend for too much material on an album is thed curse of the CD format - bring back vinyl!
And all that because sharks Twenty-five people kill every year. All that because sharks from time to time are made the teeth. All that I always knew it by reading the Telegram of Brest. All that I will always know it when I read the Telegram of Brest
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mr.biscuitdoughhead
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1729 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2006 : 14:12:43
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Too much Frank?!?! Is that possible? 
I think FMRM is better with a lot of songs. One disc couldn't hold all the good songs on both discs. FMRM and Honeycomb both only have like 1 or 2 songs they could do without. Which I'm sure I'll learn to love.
(hopefully my 500th post!)
 Vote Biscuitdoughhead For Mayor!!!!! |
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Too Much Frank
