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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2006 : 08:27:50
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The primary school sports was last week, for which there was no nursery equivalent (that's next week), but they did have an impromptu under 5's race. My daughter seems to have done well...coming second (or first as time went on ). However when trying to ascertain if she did come first or second I was told it wasn't really a race and there were no winners and losers.
This got me thinking (have we had a similar topic recently) that the shying away from competition is bad. I know the actual school sports was more team based than focusing on individual.
So, isn't the world competitive? If we coddle these kids aren't we just lying to them? If they're crap at something shouldn't the emphasis be on finding something they are good at rather than bringing everyone down to a non-competitive focus?
Maybe it's better to have a general ethic early in school then focus on competition as they get older. I dunno.
Thoughts? Opinions?
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 09:04:15
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I know that for a short time (i think it has since stopped) the little league baseball in the town i grew up in eliminated scores. I, too, think this is bullshit. As long as you, as a parent or coach or referee/umpire, teach the kids that winning isn't all that matters, then you can have scores. If the emphasis is put on fun, then you can take the wins with the losses and not cry a river over it. It is when parents breed the "winning is everything" attitude that problems crop up, not in the fact that the teams will lose a few games.
-Brian
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 09:15:38
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I don't know, kids are harsh little bastards. I've always sucked at sports and got horribly bullied for it right from the start of school up. When I hit about 13 I used to forge letters every week for some made up ailment or other just so I could escape it. Kids always pick on the losers, saying that I don't know whether emphasis on this makes any difference at all. If a kid sucks at sport chances are they'll still get picked on. Maybe it's nice to wrap them up in cotton wool just that little bit longer. But Llama, if your daughter had come last do you think you'd have the same attitude??
forum ebook: end of miles |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 09:34:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
So, isn't the world competitive? If we coddle these kids aren't we just lying to them? If they're crap at something shouldn't the emphasis be on finding something they are good at rather than bringing everyone down to a non-competitive focus?
I think the main point is that five years old it's too early for kids to be deciding that they're crap at something. We're trying to avoid having little kids (particularly little girls) decide they're not athletic and head down the path of sloth and low self-esteem.
And kids know the score. When I coach and ref soccer, kids are always keeping and discussing the score. At the end of the game the first thing they do is confirm the score with me and each other. It might become ridiculous and counter-productive if parents deny or suppress the score, but I generally agree with the intent of not making it the final tally of how the game went. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 09:40:32
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Hmm, I probably would have the same attitude, I think, although maybe I would have a bit more understanding and empathy for the other side of things.
I think the key thing as far as sport is concerned - like Brian said - is fun. Nobody's going to be good at something if they don't enjoy it. If my daughter enjoyed it and came last, that would be great, if she hated it and came last, well, I'd try to encourage her to do something she enjoyed (which I appreciate isn't always possible at school).
Maybe there's a case for splitting classes into competitive and non-competitive for part of sport lessons.
It's funny, my daughter loves singing, but she's terrible at it, can't hold a note. I'd encourage her with it as much as possible, but there may come a point where she loved it so much she wanted to go on X-factor or Pop idol or something. If nobody had told her prior to that point that she was a terrible singer, it could be a crushing blow.
Everyone has to face up to the fact they are rubbish at things.......but I guess sport/exercise is a special case as we want to encourage participation for life.
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 09:49:47
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
[quote]
I think the main point is that five years old it's too early for kids to be deciding that they're crap at something. We're trying to avoid having little kids (particularly little girls) decide they're not athletic and head down the path of sloth and low self-esteem.
You're right, but what is the right age? Firstly we want kids to enjoy exercise. Secondly we want them to carry that throughout their lives. But is that at the cost of not preparing children for the real world - (maybe I'm being a bit dramatic here).
I'm not just talking about younger children here as there does seem to be a general attitude filtering through the education system of non-competitiveness.
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 10:00:39
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I grew up sucking and sports and didn't really play them, but everyone is their own judge and while we may take things others say to heart, the end result is that removing the score doesn't remove the bad playing that is commented on.
That said, I was pretty opposed to receiving phys-ed "marks" and I'm not sure my stance on that has changed. Why is this important? Why do I need a 72% on my report card to show that my shot in basketball is uniquely inaccurate? What am I going to do? Go home and become awesome? The only marking I might agree with is the endurance/fitness tests.
 "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 12:56:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
[quote]
I think the main point is that five years old it's too early for kids to be deciding that they're crap at something. We're trying to avoid having little kids (particularly little girls) decide they're not athletic and head down the path of sloth and low self-esteem.
You're right, but what is the right age? Firstly we want kids to enjoy exercise. Secondly we want them to carry that throughout their lives. But is that at the cost of not preparing children for the real world - (maybe I'm being a bit dramatic here).
I'm not just talking about younger children here as there does seem to be a general attitude filtering through the education system of non-competitiveness.
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
Five may be too young, but I think keeping score is fine by age seven or eight. Childhood should be sheltered while still preparing us for adult existence. Many (most?) kids are the best at something, and almost all are better than most at something, so hopefully they're able to get some balance from that. The kid who gets upset at any loss in almost any game no doubt is being emotionallly abused at home, and there's only so much the school, or community, can or even should do to address that.
This topic reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut's short story "Harrison Bergeron". "The year was 2081, and everyone was finally equal." "This equality has been achieved by handicapping the most intelligent, athletic or beautiful members of society down to the level of the lowest common denominator, a process central to the society which is overseen by the United States Handicapper General, ...." "The story centres on George Bergeron and his wife Hazel watching TV. Whereas Hazel is "perfectly average", i.e. incapable of thinking straight except in short bursts, George - who is intelligent - has to wear earphones which disrupt his intellect." (Wikipedia)
"Projectile management is the essence of the quality of life" - Ted Nugent |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 13:46:40
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quote:
That said, I was pretty opposed to receiving phys-ed "marks" and I'm not sure my stance on that has changed. Why is this important? Why do I need a 72% on my report card to show that my shot in basketball is uniquely inaccurate? What am I going to do? Go home and become awesome?
I agree, but to play devil's advocate for a minute, couldn't you say that about ANY subject in school? Some people aren't good at math, and probably never will be. So do they need a 72% on their report card to tell them they can't do long division?
In my own opinion, though, sports suck. Period. It's as simple as that.
"If you doze much longer, then life turns to dreaming. If you doze much longer, then dreams turn to nightmares." |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 20:27:50
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
In my own opinion, though, sports suck. Period. It's as simple as that.
How about exercise and being healthy? Does that suck? |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 21:15:29
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and how about slam dunking in someone's face and owning them, making them feel like a little bitch? does that suck?
"I don't have any money to buy new clothes and if they paid me to get some I'd probably buy more hoodies." - Mark Wainfur |
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benji
> Teenager of the Year <
New Zealand
3426 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 21:18:54
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i believe that the practice of not keeping score and not telling children that they're not very good at something is responsible for why so many unbelievably bad singers try out for pop idol and associated shows.
it always amases me the numbers of people who for that show believing in their souls that they're good simply cause no-one ever told them the truth....
actually, makes me laugh.
all i can say, thank god for polio! brian |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 23:36:46
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
In my own opinion, though, sports suck. Period. It's as simple as that.
In sports I see one of the few* remaining vestiges of honor in our society. Participants and spectators alike accept unambiguous rules of contest and from there go forth toward their bests, with glory upon both worthy victor and vanquished alike. I can honestly say I have shed tears over an opponent team's halfback giving his all in naught on fourth and goal. That is why I sometimes refer to the "Sports" section of the local paper as the "Honor" section.
* Beauty, Truth, and Love being among the others.
"Projectile management is the essence of the quality of life" - Ted Nugent |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 02:14:19
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
and how about slam dunking in someone's face and owning them, making them feel like a little bitch? does that suck?
I've never done that. I sucked at basketball. I have beat people at pool left-handed though. Yay.
Dean, did you really get a mark specifically for basketball? I think we just got one for sport in general, even then it was just a grade (A,B....) not a percentage.
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 03:04:34
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i fucking loved sports days :'(
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 05:11:03
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Firstly I think kids will be teased for not being good whether or not they win or lose. Even kids know if someone is bad at something or not, without an official score/mark (for team sports the score only reflects badly on the team anyway, not the individual - Pele wouldn't have been teased for being rubbish had his team lost)
Anywho I think there is no reason to keep score whilst they are learning the sport. Just train the kids first, get them healthy, and if they show desire to take it further, at that stage the scores can come in. I don't see why we need to keep score when they are just learning the sport. When they make the decision to continue the sport out of school, then perhaps you teach them how to use their new found skills to win. If they are not very good then they are likely to not want to start playing outside of school (except just with friends, without adult supervision), and if they do then they must realise that at that stage it gets competitive. It depends on the sport though I guess.
 I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 06:44:44
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
i fucking loved sports days :'(
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th
I like the little hyphen tear.
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 07:09:14
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welcome to the internet, carl!
back on topic... i dunno, i don't think you should avoid scoring or having winners and losers. the competiton is good, and the kids'll be counting even if the teachers aren't, as others have said. BUT, you know, society develops, new ideas come about... i'm always aware that i could sound like those tough old men who go on about how great corporal punishment in schools was and are automatically disgusted by new approaches...
(y'know, like how erebus thinks not bombing people is being a pussy)
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 06/08/2006 07:13:21 |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 09:39:29
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They may well keep count themselves, but at least they will be shown that winning isn't everything.
I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 09:55:58
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
(y'know, like how erebus thinks not bombing people is being a pussy)
Hey! It's all about outcomes baby. Sometimes I find it difficult to imagine a world in which terrorism is a thing of the past, and I say that as somebody who's gotten to know scores of Arabs and Muslims generally over the past twenty years, from graduate students in the sciences and engineering to the owner of local convenience shop. Almost uniformly fine minds.
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El Loco
- FB Fan -
206 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 10:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
(y'know, like how erebus thinks not bombing people is being a pussy)
Hey! It's all about outcomes baby. Sometimes I find it difficult to imagine a world in which terrorism is a thing of the past, and I say that as somebody who's gotten to know scores of Arabs and Muslims generally over the past twenty years, from graduate students in the sciences and engineering to the owner of local convenience shop. Almost uniformly fine minds.
this is a sports thread, keep your politricks to yourself |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 10:29:30
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that's probably my fault, appologies.
homers: on sports day, winning IS everything.
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
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El Loco
- FB Fan -
206 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 10:32:34
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| i was too busy listening to surfer rosa in high school than to do school sports. i fought against alot of jocks if that counts. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 10:41:51
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Sport is about character, which is about life. Funny thing is, if you and I met, we might actually like one another. Through the years I've learned to listen. We could hoist a bowlfull and curse the jocks.
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El Loco
- FB Fan -
206 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 10:43:49
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here here or is that hear hear
i like the professional jocks doing their thing but it's their mentality that i can do without |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 10:46:52
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
quote:
That said, I was pretty opposed to receiving phys-ed "marks" and I'm not sure my stance on that has changed. Why is this important? Why do I need a 72% on my report card to show that my shot in basketball is uniquely inaccurate? What am I going to do? Go home and become awesome?
I agree, but to play devil's advocate for a minute, couldn't you say that about ANY subject in school? Some people aren't good at math, and probably never will be. So do they need a 72% on their report card to tell them they can't do long division?
In my own opinion, though, sports suck. Period. It's as simple as that.
"If you doze much longer, then life turns to dreaming. If you doze much longer, then dreams turn to nightmares."
I see your point, but I think math can be learned by anyone who applies themselves whereas some people seem to be born better athletes. Maybe that's a cop out since I'm irretrievably poor at phys-ed but never had problems catching on to things whether English, math, biology, or whatever.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 10:47:27
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
and how about slam dunking in someone's face and owning them, making them feel like a little bitch? does that suck?
"I don't have any money to buy new clothes and if they paid me to get some I'd probably buy more hoodies." - Mark Wainfur
To quote another member of this forum, lolz.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." |
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ScottP
= Cult of Ray =
USA
618 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 10:52:39
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Not keeping score? Sounds like the Mom's Union is pretty strong in this town.
Scores and stats are the defining moments of what you compare yourself to. It's what makes you go home and push yourself harder. If we didn't keep score, then we could all take turns playing professional sports. Stats are sport's great motivator. No, no, no. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 11:04:07
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Yes, those 5 years olds who didn't win the footrace should go home, look themselves in the mirror, and find out what's wrong with them. With this can do spirit we might produce a few more burned lawyers quiting their practices at 35.
PS Go Sox! |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 11:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by ScottP
Not keeping score? Sounds like the Mom's Union is pretty strong in this town.
Scores and stats are the defining moments of what you compare yourself to. It's what makes you go home and push yourself harder. If we didn't keep score, then we could all take turns playing professional sports. Stats are sport's great motivator. No, no, no.
Nobody is saying get rid of scoring full stop.
I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 11:11:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
quote:
That said, I was pretty opposed to receiving phys-ed "marks" and I'm not sure my stance on that has changed. Why is this important? Why do I need a 72% on my report card to show that my shot in basketball is uniquely inaccurate? What am I going to do? Go home and become awesome?
I agree, but to play devil's advocate for a minute, couldn't you say that about ANY subject in school? Some people aren't good at math, and probably never will be. So do they need a 72% on their report card to tell them they can't do long division?
In my own opinion, though, sports suck. Period. It's as simple as that.
"If you doze much longer, then life turns to dreaming. If you doze much longer, then dreams turn to nightmares."
I see your point, but I think math can be learned by anyone who applies themselves whereas some people seem to be born better athletes. Maybe that's a cop out since I'm irretrievably poor at phys-ed but never had problems catching on to things whether English, math, biology, or whatever.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
some people are just thick too
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 11:20:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
I see your point, but I think math can be learned by anyone who applies themselves whereas some people seem to be born better athletes. Maybe that's a cop out since I'm irretrievably poor at phys-ed but never had problems catching on to things whether English, math, biology, or whatever.
Interesting comment in a couple respects. I'm not so sure that application of self can suffice when it comes to math. I've known a couple guys gifted in literary respects who were nonetheless at sea with math, and yet quite able to initiate complex deductive arguments. And surely you remember grade school classmates whose eyes seemed to glaze over at anything beyond basic arithmetic. It's as though the faculty for apprehension was utterly absent, much as was mine when it came to foreign languages.
Regarding "catching on", no less than the Aristotle himself observed that those for whom math came easy usually also easily picked up on other things.
But I agree about sport, or "proprioceptive" awareness. Does seem inborn, much as is that of math.
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 15:00:54
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isn't there/wasn't there a shying away from formal exams for kids ( under 11's) as well for just that reason. So they don't get too hung up on failing at something. I guess that's cleared the way for more coursework led assessment. But that's extended even to degrees. I always assumed that what companies in the real world want to see is that students can deal with pressure. That's what it's like, or certainly can be. Surely if we don't adequately prepare kids then they will fail eventually.
Also, there are some things you just can't teach kids to be good at. I'm good at maths, science and some sports, mostly racket sports. I sucked at English and languages at school. I'm also crap at swimming. No amount of schooling was going to make me good at English or languages. I have no desire to be good at swimming (well, until I want to try a triathlon ;)
I guess though, that as far as sport is concerned, the trick is to get kids who don't excel to still enjoy themselves playing it. That's a bit more difficult with school subjects.
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
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mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
607 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 16:15:35
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| I must say reading all of this makes me quite nervous about perhaps being a parent someday. How do you know when to push (or coddle) and when to let them figure it out themselves? Sometimes I think that it is inevitable no matter how much you try you are going to screw up with your kids somewhere along the way. I know my parents did. Perhaps parents have to learn not to be afraid of failing as much as the kids. |
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ScottP
= Cult of Ray =
USA
618 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 17:04:46
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[quote]Originally posted by Homers_pet_monkey
Nobody is saying get rid of scoring full stop.
That's what the moms want you to think. They're very clever. |
Edited by - ScottP on 06/08/2006 17:08:46 |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2006 : 10:03:46
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by VoVat
In my own opinion, though, sports suck. Period. It's as simple as that.
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How about exercise and being healthy? Does that suck?
Come on, you're asking this on an INTERNET forum! :P
More seriously, though, GETTING exercise is good, sure. But that strikes me as more of a side effect of organized sports than their actual goal.
"If you doze much longer, then life turns to dreaming. If you doze much longer, then dreams turn to nightmares." |
Edited by - VoVat on 06/09/2006 10:06:28 |
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Topic |
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School sports and stuff
