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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
 Posted - 01/22/2006 : 09:54:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
I think they're called 'pups' (or at least that's what my seal-studying friend calls them) and it's against the law to club farm animals to death and you sure as hell can't skin one alive.
What is the legal way to kill them?
And how do they manage to bypass that?
__________
Don't believe the hype.
i think Darwin is refering to the United States. in Canada it's illegal on the books to skin seals alive or kick them, but it happens all the time. the way they bypass that is by making it illegal to view a seal hunt. the sealrs are escorted by Canadian police and coast guard every year to make sure no one comes in and takes pictures etc.. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 09:58:14
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This thread's been screaming for Brigitte for a while now.
I got some heaven in my head
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Edited by - kathryn on 01/22/2006 09:58:50 |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 09:58:47
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quote:
Originally posted by fumanbru
quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Actually I only saw the first one... what did they say about it?
they said you shouldn't hit baby seals.....
just kidding. it was a comedy. they didn't hit upon the baby seal issue. but very funny.
"When Elle discovers that her lovable chihuahua Bruiser's mom is locked in a cruel animal testing facility, she heads to D.C. to fight for animal rights, give Washington a makeover and prove once and for all that America is theland of the free, and the home of the blonde!"
 "I joined the Cult of Frank/ cause I'm a real go-getter!"
aww that's cute |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 10:42:33
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
This thread's been screaming for Brigitte for a while now.
That old fascist bitch frightens me more than any seal hunter.
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"I want to change the world but it's changing me!" |
Edited by - Frog in the Sand on 01/22/2006 10:43:30 |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 13:10:48
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Too much time in front of the computer.I had to edit this one a couple of times, the mistakes were awfull. Anyway :
quote:
Originally posted by floop
it's ironic that you say you have no knowledge about Paul Watson or sealing, yet seem to have strong convictions about it. and on top of that, suggest to me that i should seek more information before making an opinion about it.
you should do a little research yourself before you pretend like you know what you're talking about.
Ok - the tone of my replies may not have been the best - sorry for contributing to that. Nonetheless: take the time to read through replies before going off offending, ok?
1) Ok - my english isnīt the best - i was perhaps a bit clumsy - but I never stated that I have no knowledge about him - I donīt know his work in detail - I am no expert, if you like. I thought I made that pretty clear. Regarding the "advice", I may have misunderstood what you wrote, but at the time I suggested getting second opinions I was under the impression that Paul Watson was the (only) source of information. That was assumptious of me, sorry.
2) I have strong convictions about the way such debates are handled, and yes - I am not fond of his methods - neither. I have never "pretended" to be any kindof expert on sealing or Watson (there are a lot of "i think"s in my replies), however, you suggested pretty strong actions - and I think such actions should be justified in a different language and other arguments. Definetely not the language nor actions of Watson. Iīll stop the comparisons but just point out that itīs an all-american tradition (I know he's Canadian) and itīs an irritating one.
quote:
now you're trying to change the topic to George Bush again. again, nice try.
Well, again - as I am sure you know - the point was not Bush but moralism. Maybe you didnīt know. But now you know (which, by the way is an excellent Afghan Whigs song).
quote:
recently-born infants still nursing on their mothers are babies. that is a simple fact.
Maybe. You presented other facts as well, remember? I think my point is still valid (no such things as simple facts). Secondly - wording is an important factor, and in the case of sea-animals it is used specifically to induce certain emotions (see below).
quote:
i could say the fact that you're Canadian (assuming you are) colors your replies. usually Canadians get very sensitive about this issue.
You assume a lot. Iīm from a different continent. Never been to Canada.
quote:
i guess i don't understand the point of your argument ivan. so it's wrong to appeal to the emotions on these kinds of issues? how can these kinds of issues not involve emotions?
also, i'm not arguing that there aren't other atrocities going on. i'm just discussion this particular one, which i don't think a lot of people know about
Ok, i somewhat agree with what youīre saying. Emotions are always involved,and I do not desire debates that are not colored by them. I think it is a good thing when people take action for something they believe in or appreciate, sometimes direct action against something may be a good thing too. But, the western world in general, and the USA in particular, are extremely fond of pointing fingers and imposing moral standards on others. This is not a trend particular to republicans. Itīs a little tiresome in the end. Being from outside the US, issues regarding whales and other sea animals have been frequently voiced by your country (assuming you are american). Regarding the animals in the sea, it seems to me that "simple facts" are presented and wordings "chosen" in ways that make it difficult to judge for oneself whatīs really going on (nope, I am not saying youīre mind is clouded). Michael Moore is another example where morals and emotions cloud the message. But then again, maybe morals is the message. Finally, I find Watson methods unacceptable and they have no place in discussions regarding how to properly take care of wildlife. Maybe that colored my response more than it should have. Okidoki - time to retire. I hope I did not produce more misunderstandings by this reply.
Love to all being-lovers
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Edited by - ivandivel on 01/22/2006 13:21:27 |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2006 : 11:55:49
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animal rights is an international concern . just last week 17 countries joined together to oppose illegal Japanese whaling (that's been happening the past two months).
http://seashepherd.org/news/media_060119_1.html
during last years seal slaughter there were protests and rallies all over the world. i don't understand how it's particular to the US.
the problem with animal rights efforts is that the media only covers dramatic, newsworthy (what they deem newsworthy) stories. a picture of an activist putting himself between a whale and deadly harpoon makes for a good story. or footage of ramming a drift-net vessel out on the open sea..
there are people out there trying to protect endangered caterpillars but they just don't get the same coverage.
i'd be curious to know where you're from Ivan. being anti- Paul Watson and all. i know he's pissed off the Norwegians quite a bit. and the Russians. and the Japanese. and the Faroese. |
Edited by - floop on 01/23/2006 12:25:25 |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2006 : 12:23:57
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I just watched that PETA video-fuck, that is awful, the people doing that are sick twisted fuckers. I honestly don't know how 'humanely' cows, etc. are generally killed in slaughterhouses. I was a vegetarian for 4 years, that footage got me thinking about just how animals are killed for meat, never mind their skins.
 pas de dutchie! |
Edited by - Carl on 01/23/2006 12:24:38 |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2006 : 18:46:07
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| Don't be cruel...to an animal. Don't be cruel... to an animal. |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 00:35:42
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I was able to sit through the Nick Berg beheading footage when it came out (don't ask me why I watched it) but I could not watch the entire clip that you posted the link to, PixieSteve.
Signature censored by forum moderators. |
Edited by - glacial906 on 01/25/2006 00:36:17 |
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 02:08:08
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ok glacial906, strange post?
are u alluding to something? is it because we see people die in movies and on TV everyday and we've become desensitised.... while you tend not to see animals being gunned down on TV... Killing a person is far more outrageous than some animal (not condoning the latter).. |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 02:30:19
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Are you implying that I should automatically feel more sympathy for the human?
I wasn't trying to make an allusion. Don't get me wrong, I guess I have become desensitized to violence against humans from movies, but I did find the Nick Berg video to be truly awful. (I was watching grainy, pixelated blocks move around on the screen, and I could see zero detail, but the sheer fact of knowing that the footage was real made it more horrific than any horror movie I have ever seen...) Maybe it had more to do with the resolution of the film to make me feel more sqeuamish watching that animal get it's skin cut off, I don't really know.
Anyhow, not that I refrain from partaking in the spoils of killing animals (I am not a vegetarian, or a vegan for that matter) but, that nonwithstanding, why would be worse to kill one species (humans) and not another (animals)? What criteria would you base that on? Intelligence? By the same taken, if an advanced alien race came to our planet and started slaughtering humans for food, would that be okay?
Signature censored by forum moderators. |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 08:52:11
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Well, a quick death is not as hard to watch as an animal being skinned alive, and then left to die with no skin, even if
it's 'just' an animal. Not to suggest that the beheading of Nick Berg is any less horrific, or to crudely suggest that his life isn't worth more than an animal's, which is most certainly not what I'm trying to say, but you know what I mean.
pas de dutchie! |
Edited by - Carl on 01/25/2006 08:55:21 |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 16:42:10
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| Do you guys think Americans are less progressive about animal rights than other countries? Sometimes it seems like other cutures treat animals better. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 17:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Do you guys think Americans are less progressive about animal rights than other countries? Sometimes it seems like other cutures treat animals better.
I don't think so. In many countries it seems like the streets are filled with undernourished stray dogs. I think the answer will defer if you're talking about pets vs. food animals.
Another big distinction is animal rights vs. conserving biodiversity. For example, on the islands off of Santa Barbara native foxes and many plants are being driven to extinction because of pigs (brought to the islands by people) and hawks. Biologists are killing the pigs and trying to drive away the hawks. This has lead to howls from animal rights advocates that say it's cruel to kill the pigs. To me I'll sacrifice the lives of 100 pigs to save a species that's going to extinction. This isn't an isolated situation (the same goes for nutria in Louisiana, pigs in Hawaii, and many other places). |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 15:57:15
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I apparently killed this topic, so a question:
Would you kill or support others killing 100 common animals to save the life of 1 endangered animal? For example, would you kill 100 crows to save 1 endangered desert tortoise? |
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Fartbone
- FB Fan -
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 16:36:03
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
I apparently killed this topic, so a question:
Would you kill or support others killing 100 common animals to save the life of 1 endangered animal? For example, would you kill 100 crows to save 1 endangered desert tortoise?
enough already
Horale Cabrones |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 17:36:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Fartbone
enough already
What's your problem? If you don't like the subject or conversation skip it? You haven't even been in the conservation.
edit: I now see there might be some hacking going on |
Edited by - darwin on 01/26/2006 17:39:09 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2006 : 04:20:04
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What always amuses me is how people get all guffy for the sake of lab-rats yet never protest enviromental health for pest control.
I'd do it darwin. Crows, pigs, I'd do it. And eat them after. Mmm, crow pie. |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2006 : 04:57:00
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
What always amuses me is how people get all guffy for the sake of lab-rats yet never protest enviromental health for pest control.
why is it amusing
Your mum |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2006 : 05:17:47
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well who are they to distinguish? why is the death of a lab rat any more horrific than the death of a street rat? before the blahblah cruelty starts, some pest control methods are pretty sick. When I lived in Oxford we had a rat infestation. I actually caught one under a casserole dish to show the people who ran accomodation because the hospital wouldn't believe we had rats, they thought they were mice. When they came and hospital pest control came to see what I had caught they were seen to be young rats. A family had nested in the garage. Hospital Pest control put down non toxic traps. Not the sprung traps, nor poison but what was pretty much a giant sticky strip. That night a rat got caught on the sticky strip, the hospital pest people were out and none of the porters would come round. The other residents were a bit upset as the rat kept squealing and squealing. After an hour we went to check on it and it had pulled the skin off it's face and body in an attempt to escape but when it freed one fleshless bit of itself another got stuck and the whole pulling tearng process started again. I wanted to kill it because leaving it to die like this wasn't nice, I was going to dash its brains out with a heavy vase, was the quickest way I could think to do it. This upset the other residents also, some of whom had the main objection that they would end up with rat goo all over the kitchen. Yet, these same people were horrified when I moved to university, that part of my course involved dissection. The stuck rat took over eight hours to die and it never stopped sqeualing.
It's a massive double standard and my sense of humour is bent that way. |
Edited by - starmekitten on 01/27/2006 05:20:46 |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2006 : 05:56:24
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oh right, when you said pests i thought of mostly insects... fair enough if you compare the same animal.
Your mum |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2006 : 19:55:59
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Do you guys think Americans are less progressive about animal rights than other countries? Sometimes it seems like other cutures treat animals better.
I don't think so. In many countries it seems like the streets are filled with undernourished stray dogs. I think the answer will defer if you're talking about pets vs. food animals.
Another big distinction is animal rights vs. conserving biodiversity. For example, on the islands off of Santa Barbara native foxes and many plants are being driven to extinction because of pigs (brought to the islands by people) and hawks. Biologists are killing the pigs and trying to drive away the hawks. This has lead to howls from animal rights advocates that say it's cruel to kill the pigs. To me I'll sacrifice the lives of 100 pigs to save a species that's going to extinction. This isn't an isolated situation (the same goes for nutria in Louisiana, pigs in Hawaii, and many other places).
That's very interesting. I think that at least the way I see it that if every person were to do their part that life would be way better for animals and people.
Tre you make very intresting points about the lab rat vs. the common rat. Luckily the worst problem I ever had was with ants. I never thought about it in that way but it makes complete sense.
It's just so interesting how differently I look at things. It took years of yoga but a life is a life.
I don't like killing bugs anymore.
Hopefully more people will wake up like I did and start doing what they can.
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Edited by - Daisy Girl on 01/30/2006 20:02:52 |
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tacolicker
- FB Fan -
49 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2006 : 09:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
That's very interesting. I think that at least the way I see it that if every person were to do their part that life would be way better for animals and people.
Tre you make very intresting points about the lab rat vs. the common rat. Luckily the worst problem I ever had was with ants. I never thought about it in that way but it makes complete sense.
It's just so interesting how differently I look at things. It took years of yoga but a life is a life.
I don't like killing bugs anymore.
Hopefully more people will wake up like I did and start doing what they can.
"if every person were to do their part that life would be way better for animals and people." what does that mean?
I'm all for conserving biodiversity. I believe people have a responsibility as a steward of nature, but sometimes that means killing animals. sometimes animals can be a huge threat to other animals or plants if the ecosystem is out of balance.
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2006 : 16:35:39
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my brain is so dead. and its so hard to answer your question in a concise way.
anyway, for any significant change to happen to animals or to make the envrioment better it is going to take hundreds of millions of more people that are already concious of those issues.
and yes, as you point out the matter is completely complex! |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2006 : 16:53:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
my brain is so dead. and its so hard to answer your question in a concise way.
anyway, for any significant change to happen to animals or to make the envrioment better it is going to take hundreds of millions of more people that are already concious of those issues.
and yes, as you point out the matter is completely complex!
Sometimes it takes just one sharpshooter and box full of ammo.
PS Thinking happy thoughts isn't going to do anything to protect biodiversity. |
Edited by - darwin on 02/01/2006 20:37:03 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2006 : 20:48:55
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The mere thought of needing to produce "happy" thoughts shows a source of guilt. And guilt never produces much for results.
__________
Don't believe the hype. |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 19:21:49
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| I guess you can call it happy. I think it's rather daunting to think how many people it takes to change the environment/get better conditions for animals. Because it's going to take hundreds of millions if not more. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 21:09:07
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| zilllions? |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 04:21:31
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quote:
Daisy Girl Posted - 02/03/2006 : 19:21:49
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I think it's rather daunting to think how many people it takes to change the environment/get better conditions for animals.
Donīt worry about other people, concentrate on yourself. If people all around you are crawling donīt sweat it, just get up and walk.
--
Buy your best friend flowers. Buy your lover a beer. Covet thy father. Covet thy neighbour's father. Honour thy lover's beer. Covet thy neighbour's father's wife's sister. Take her to bingo night. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 12:58:51
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quote:
zilllions?
That's not a real number!
"If you doze much longer, then life turns to dreaming. If you doze much longer, then dreams turn to nightmares." |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 14:05:11
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| is too |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2006 : 10:58:11
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as of yesterday the seal "hunt" is underway
http://harpseals.org/
as if it wasn't bad enough, the ice conditions are the worst this year than ever in recorded history, with seal mothers having nowhere to give birth and thousands of newborn seals drowning..
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - General George S. Patton |
Edited by - floop on 03/26/2006 11:01:42 |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2006 : 15:49:47
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It's crazy that this continues, apparently unoppossed.
pas de dutchie! |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2006 : 19:46:50
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it's been opposed for a long time. there was an international protest just a few weeks ago regarding this.. even Canadian citizens (as a whole) oppose the seal hunt.
the Canadian government is just stubborn about it. it would be so easy for them to stop the seal hunt, but they insist that it's "tradition" etc..
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - General George S. Patton |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2006 : 04:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
it would be so easy for them to stop the seal hunt, but they insist that it's "tradition" etc..
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - General George S. Patton
Just like producing the world's greatest maple syrup.
 I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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animal cruelty
