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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
 Posted - 03/28/2006 : 03:02:38
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http://www.nme.com/news/morrissey/22617
Morrissey boycotts Canada
He won't be going there on tour in protest over 'horrific slaughter'
Morrissey is refusing to take his world tour to Canada in protest against the country's annual seal hunt.
It has been reported that up to 325,000 young harp seal pups could be killed in the coming weeks, despite international appeals for it to stop.
The singer has issued a statement on his official website saying this is the reason he won't be visiting the country to promote his forthcoming album 'Ringleader Of The Tormentors'. Dates have already been played in the US, and he's due to visit Europe later this spring.
"I fully realise that the absence of any Morrissey concerts in Canada is unlikely to bring the Canadian economy to its knees, but it is our small protest against this horrific slaughter - which is the largest slaughter of marine animal species found anywhere on the planet," the singer said. "The Canadian Prime Minister says the so-called 'cull' is economically and environmentally justified, but this is untrue."
Morrissey claims that the motivation behind the "barbaric and cruel" hunt is "making money", and in doing so will aid the fashion industry.
He continued: "The Canadian Prime Minister also states that the slaughter is necessary because it provides jobs for local communities, but this is an ignorant reason for allowing such barbaric and cruel slaughter of beings that are denied life simply because somebody somewhere might want to wear their skin. Construction of German gas chambers also provided work for someone - this is not a moral or sound reason for allowing suffering."
The cull has been condemned by other celebrities, including Paul McCartney.
 I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 03:59:11
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That Morrisey!
There's a charity shop up the road from where I live that sells fur coats, they're well expensive. One was "genuine lamb" and £65 quid, curly. They smelled a bit odd too if I'm honest. Could just be the charity shop though. |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2006 : 12:12:37
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Actress Pamela Anderson prepares to mail petitions to Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
Pamela Anderson Calls for Her Homeland to End Its Seal Hunt
HALIFAX, Nova Scotia Apr 2, 2006 (AP)— Pamela Anderson is renewing calls for her homeland to end its East Coast seal hunt. Anderson, a native of British Columbia, said Saturday that she was disappointed Prime Minister Stephen Harper had refused her request for a meeting after Canada's annual Juno music awards shows on Sunday, which she was invited to host.
The refusal prompted the former "Baywatch" star to write Harper a letter warning that People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals would escalate its efforts if Canada does not stop the annual seal harvest.
"When people think of Canadian Club, they should think of a good whiskey, not jerks beating pups on the ice," Anderson said at a news conference Saturday.
This year's seal hunt, which began last weekend in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, has attracted several celebrity opponents, including former Beatle Paul McCartney and French actress Brigitte Bardot.
The Canadian government and fishing communities insist they need the winter income. The slaughter of 320,000 seals last season brought in $14.5 million.
I’m the only one who can say that this light is mine
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2006 : 12:40:14
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clubbing seals sounds fun
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2006 : 13:13:19
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Ah, uninformed celebrities and idiots unite. If you're going to oppose something that, perhaps, is worthy of opposing (I'm not arguing in favour of it by any means, just stating my usual condescension towards washed-up/half-wit celebrities grasping for limelight) at least get some facts. Stating, "he's wrong" as an argument against the well-outlined arguments environmental and otherwise (I don't really care for economic arguments, to me ethics should trump that) then how can he expect anyone to follow or agree except for his starstruck 14-year old followers. Who, incidentally, would probably agree to leap off a tall building with a large weight tied to their neck if he were to support such a thing.
Of course, the media insists on printing one-sided stories as well, so perhaps people like Morissey aren't uninformed but rather the media is shaping the story. I could rant about this too, now, but I'll leave you with the one rant for now.
 "If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2006 : 13:26:39
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
clubbing seals sounds fun
They sure do.
I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2006 : 14:22:27
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| well I think it's good that the word has gotten out on this. 3-4 people I know have brought it up. Normally people that wouldn't care about this kind of thing. So it seems like the word is really getting out. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2006 : 17:01:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Ah, uninformed celebrities and idiots unite. If you're going to oppose something that, perhaps, is worthy of opposing (I'm not arguing in favour of it by any means, just stating my usual condescension towards washed-up/half-wit celebrities grasping for limelight) at least get some facts. Stating, "he's wrong" as an argument against the well-outlined arguments environmental and otherwise (I don't really care for economic arguments, to me ethics should trump that) then how can he expect anyone to follow or agree except for his starstruck 14-year old followers. Who, incidentally, would probably agree to leap off a tall building with a large weight tied to their neck if he were to support such a thing.
Of course, the media insists on printing one-sided stories as well, so perhaps people like Morissey aren't uninformed but rather the media is shaping the story. I could rant about this too, now, but I'll leave you with the one rant for now.
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."
i'd be curious to see what the coverage of this topic is like up in Canada.
i'm not sure who you're referring to whose whole argument is "he's wrong".. it seems like all of the celebrities involved so far have been very articulate about this issue. especially Paul McCartney who debated Premier Danny Williams on Larry King and made him look like an idiot.
the whole reason celebrities are brought into these issues is for the sole purpose drawing media attention. people can complain about Pamela Anderson or Morrissey all they want, but the fact is that this is giving attention to the issue and getting people talking about it. which only benefits the cause.
some non-celebrity activist news:
http://www.theguardian.pe.ca/index.cfm?sid=2048&sc=2
http://seashepherd.org/news/media_060330_3.html
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” - General George S. Patton |
Edited by - floop on 04/02/2006 17:33:11 |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 01:41:17
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
as if it wasn't bad enough, the ice conditions are the worst this year than ever in recorded history, with seal mothers having nowhere to give birth and thousands of newborn seals drowning..
Now please don't misunderstand me, I fully support people who fight this barbaric seal hunt, but what you wrote just above is highly ridiculous. It clearly shows that some of animal rights activists (not all of them, I know) from developed countries care about the animals they see as "pets", in a Disney kind of way.
I remember Brigitte Bardot on French TV asking people not to eat horse meat. Like it is moral to kill cows but not horses.
Please also bear in mind that pets vs food animals is a purely cultural distinction. It varies from one country to another.
Now since you mentioned boycotting Canada about this (once again, I clearly support action against cruelty towards animals), let's mention the fact that each time I turn on the TV I hear news about 50 people killed in Irak.
I am sure this is not the case for you floop, but many people care more about baby seals than about humans.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 01:55:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur
quote:
Originally posted by floop
as if it wasn't bad enough, the ice conditions are the worst this year than ever in recorded history, with seal mothers having nowhere to give birth and thousands of newborn seals drowning..
Now please don't misunderstand me, I fully support people who fight this barbaric seal hunt, but what you wrote just above is highly ridiculous. It clearly shows that some of animal rights activists (not all of them, I know) from developed countries care about the animals they see as "pets", in a Disney kind of way.
I'm not sure what your point is. I don't know if the statement about historically poor ice conditions is true or not, but I am fairly certain that global warming is going to have devastating effects on many species and cause numerous extinctions. You don't have to believe in animal rights to think that is a bad thing.
And on the human versus animal thing. I think it's a cop out to criticise someones political or ethical actions because the issue to you seems to be less important than others. Most of us don't do much to make the world or our communities more just, so how can someone be criticised for not working on the "most" important problems as if their efforts are a poor use of time? Most of our time is wasted. By that logic everyone not working on nuclear disarmament or the containment of nuclear technologies or materials (or AIDS in Africa or global warming) is just wasting time.
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Working on the T.V. show Emergency! was particularly nice because I was working with a real pro “Randy Mantooth” - Dick Van Patten |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 04:51:09
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I regularly give money to an organization dealing with children that are victims of war. I know the organization well and I know that my money really reaches those kids.
The fact that there is such an issue about baby seals (once again, I agree it should be forbidden and find it deeply shocking that it is covered by the government in the name of a tradition) is due to the fact that they are cute.
The fact that there are people fighting against seal clubbing is something I'm happy about.
But let's face the evidence: all of you care much more about baby seals than about African children who have AIDS. We have regular topics about baby seals here. Yet no topics about African children with AIDS.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 05:05:56
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We need images of cute African babies with AIDS being clubbed to death. That should really start the donations flowing.
The experts they file in by the roomful / Watching him dying young
free music |
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 05:17:21
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I agree completely, Monsieur.
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 06:32:36
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Technically its against the law for them to kill baby seals.
__________
Don't believe the hype. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 07:19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur
But let's face the evidence: all of you care much more about baby seals than about African children who have AIDS. We have regular topics about baby seals here. Yet no topics about African children with AIDS.
why don't you start one then monsieur?
this topic is about animal cruelty in general. the seal slaughter is happening right now, hence, it's "topical"..
i think most animal rights activists oppose the seal hunt because they're against the idea of bashing baby animals in the head, repeatedly, with a sharp pick, then skinning them alive while they squirm in pain. most of the people involved in the seal hunt opposition are also involved with stopping shark poaching and overfishing of endangered sea cucumbers. the fact is that the seal issue gets the most press, because they're cute.
i also don't get how being concerned with the ice conditions for the seals is "ridiculous".. maybe you could enlighten me.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” - General George S. Patton |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 07:21:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
Technically its against the law for them to kill baby seals.
their definition of an adult seal is 3 weeks old (still nursing from its mother), despite the fact that average harp seals live to be 30-35 years old.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” - General George S. Patton |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 07:37:32
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Well, Morissey for one, Floop. See news posted at the top of this. Again, whether it's him or the media not articulating his position fully I don't know. The Canadian media is pretty united in their dismissal which upsets me as much as people who simply hear clubbing baby seals and instantly jump on the bandwagon. Here's one article from CBC which is probably one of the more fair ones: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sealhunt/
As C says, first of all, it's not babies, or at least not legally, not that I think that is much in way of consolation. Secondly, allegedly, part of it is supposedly to protect them from starving to death. We've removed most of their predators, and so they grow unchecked. As well, we (and by which I mean Canada and those who continue to fish off the grand banks although we ourselves have stopped it and pretty much shut down the maritimes economically) have overfished the Grand Banks and allowing what little remains to be wiped out isn't a great alternative either.
Doubtless, the motivation is largely economic and I don't wholly believe the arguments in favour. But these are the points that should be addressed specifically. "Here's how you're handling it now, here's how you could still get the desired results without the cruelty." My biggest complaint, actually my only complaint, is the method of killing. Clubs, ice picks, that strikes me as a little barbaric and not exactly as humane as it could be. I think if idiot celebrities focused on that, they COULD get something done. Instead, they issue broad and naive condemnation which does nothing to stop the problem.
And for the record, I personally thought that they all looked like idiots on CNN, especially Paul's wife, and further felt that the coverage was biased to draw outrage at the case rather than examine and debate the issue. Now, I hear you: "CNN sensationalizing to get viewers?! Never!" Actually, as far as it goes, Danny did okay for himself aside from a few points where he blatantly dodged what I thought were valid points, when you consider the way he was being painted.
And yeah, I largely agree with Monsieur...
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 08:04:17
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Talking about "difficult ice conditions this year" is ridiculous because that's Nature.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 08:37:14
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I'm not sure that 3 weeks old is the definition of an adult seal.
I've read that, again technically, they are not allowed to kill seals that still have the white fur on them.
D, they do shoot some of them but rarely because gunshots scare away the other seals.
Like any other issue...someone's lying here.
Who knows who and to what extent.
I don't know how strong any of my opinions are because I don't know what exactly the truth is, especially with how the seal hunt is portrayed here.
Or if it has been more barbaric in the past.
I know some people here who are in favour of it simply for the fact that the seals are at record numbers and they are eating all the cod, sending that industry into a spiral. I've also heard it likened to any other cattle type industry.
Floop, I think this story is a good representation of the kind of things you hear here in Canada;
"True to our history
By JOHN CROSBIE
Today I will take a break from Canadian politics to consider the seal hunt in the context of the history of North America.
North Americans, now largely urbanized, have forgotten their origins, as indicated by the fuss that occurs each spring when the annual seal hunt proceeds in the Gulf and off the Northeast coast of Newfoundland and Labrador (the “Front”).
During the months of March and April each spring, a battle recommences over the seal hunt since North Americans no longer remember that when Europeans arrived in North America they had to be hunter-gatherers to survive.
In Newfoundland the seal hunt has existed for at least 3,200 years, beginning with the Maritime Archaic people followed by the Palaeo Eskimo and the Dorset Eskimo until 300 B.C., then the Beothuck, the Micmac and other aboriginal peoples and finally the Europeans from the 15th century onward.
To survive, all of these peoples had to hunt for seals, whales, fish, caribou, rabbit, beaver, moose, bear, deer and birds. The killing is not pleasant to see but it is necessary to survive.
Newfoundlanders, for the most part, support the seal hunt because we remember the tribulations and dangers that our forefathers endured to survive here and develop our homeland, which would not have become a province if the hunt had not developed in its modern form at the start of the 19th century.
Because of our access to cod, the new offshore seal fishery each spring created new economic activity, strengthening the Newfoundland economy. But in 1804, we had only 20,000 permanent settlers in Newfoundland.
It was the renewed seal hunt, using large sailing vessels, wooden steamers and, later, engine-powered steel steamships that enabled a major offshore seal fishery to take place on the ice coming down from the Arctic and Greenland each spring — resulting in the growth of the Newfoundland population to 136,356 residents, principally on the island, by 1869 with 340 vessels and 8,400 men engaged in the spring seal hunt. Annual catches of 500,000 seals were not uncommon.
Shannon Ryan’s history, The Ice Hunters, points out, “A seal fishery during 1814-60 was crucial to the development and survival of the Newfoundland colony.”
At that time the principal products produced by the colony were salt cod fish and cod oil, now with seal oil and skins.
What the colony needed for permanent and independent settlement was a second industry, the seal hunt on the Front and in the Gulf, with access to the seals on the mighty Arctic ice flows on which the female seals bore their young. These white-coats, known to TV viewers as “baby seals,” are 15 pounds at birth — growing to 70 pounds in several weeks when they are abandoned by their mothers, who join the male seals in the ocean to mate again.
The white-coats, after three or four weeks nurtured by the rich milk of their mothers, quickly grow to become independent, learning to swim and molting to “raggedy jackets”. After molting is completed they enter the water to swim to the summer feeding grounds off the coast of Greenland.
In the 19th century this hunt provided at least a third of the incomes of fishermen with access to the hunt.
The seal hunt was dangerous not just for the seals, but the sealers. Newfoundlanders remember such tragedies as the blowing up of the Viking, the loss of 78 men frozen to death on the ice from the SS Nfld., the loss of the Southern Cross with 173 men and the Greenland with 48.
The harp and hood seals today are not endangered species, with six million present at the Front and the Gulf yearly.
The difference between the seal hunt and the raising and killing of cattle (beef), calves (veal), sheep and lambs, pigs, chicken, turkeys, whales and fish is that the latter is done behind closed doors in abattoirs and private places to which cameras and the public have no access. Cattle, calves and other animals and birds that so many people eat with appreciation are also killed by blows to the head or cutting their throats in as humane a way as possible, but those sights are never seen on TV."
__________
Don't believe the hype. |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 04/03/2006 08:38:13 |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 09:54:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur
Talking about "difficult ice conditions this year" is ridiculous because that's Nature.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust
Human altered nature, probably.
____________________________________________________________________
Working on the T.V. show Emergency! was particularly nice because I was working with a real pro “Randy Mantooth” - Dick Van Patten |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 10:00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
I know some people here who are in favour of it simply for the fact that the seals are at record numbers and they are eating all the cod, sending that industry into a spiral. I've also heard it likened to any other cattle type industry.
I'm pretty sure that bullshit. If there's limited food (i.e. Cult's suggestion that their being killed to avoid starvation) then why are they at record numbers? Missing predators?
And it is an old fisherman tale to blame the lack of fish on predators. They say that in the SF Bay area and up in Alaska. It's human overfishing that drove the cod out and they may have permanently wiped out the big fish.
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Working on the T.V. show Emergency! was particularly nice because I was working with a real pro “Randy Mantooth” - Dick Van Patten |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 10:15:20
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Yeah, I agree that lack of fish is completely our own fault (I think I said that?), but now there are so few left that letting them go un-checked could do what you've quoted Carolyn as saying. Obviously there are enough fish for the existing population, and probably extra enough to feed more (I don't know one way or the other), but probably not unchecked. Hence some limits on the number of seals. Few/no predators in that region anymore (polar bears and humans are not exactly fast friends) has not helped.
They're also trying to rebuild what was almost wiped out by us and others and I suppose. Make no mistake, the whole scenario is human fault. But turning seals loose on what remains in the Grand Banks won't help. This way, some people make some money, get some food, get on TV, and the fish population gets a chance to regrow. Cod fishing in the banks has been stopped for quite a few years as well, at least insofar as we are able to.
I suppose we could try to introduce orcas. Though I've seen the way they kill their prey and am not convinced it's any more humane. :)
All I'm saying is there's more to the issue than a barbaric hunt for the sake of tradition, and it's worth examining why and what else could be done in this. Sorry to play Devil's Advocate, but it can be a fun game.
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 10:34:13
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Interesting,
debate is good.
Dean, didn't we have some problems with distinguishing what is Canadian waters awhile back? (overfishing problems etc.)
And yeah, I spose tradition is a stupid reason to continue.
You could say slavery was a tradition too....
Another question I have is what exactly do they use the seals for?
Is it just the skins? Do they sell the meat? etc.
And is it just they way they kill them that causes the problems?
What if they could kill them as humanely as possible, would that change opinions?
I don't know alot about it being from the west and landlocked.
I also heard a friend say that any industry out east is good because that's less transfer payments Alberta has to send out east.
__________
Don't believe the hype. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 12:22:09
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Yeah, we did. I'm not sure if we still do or not so I didn't bring it up, but I know the US kept fishing long after we'd forced our fishermen to stop and that caused a lot of anger. Also I think the English and Norwegians... we still do have a problem with the US recognizing the waters between the many islands of Canada's north as ours, hence them sending subs through. Harper's solution to put arm(or)ed ice breakers is patently ridiculous as, well, what are we gonna' do? Open fire on the US the next time they stroll through our waters uninvited?
I think they use fats from seals for certain things, soaps, etc. Meat, probably, but no idea. Skins, yes.
That they kill them at all causes problems with some people. My problem is more how they kill them, but I think if you were to talk to the McCartneys, they'd object to the very idea of killing. If they were taken care of more humanely, I'd have no problem with it. I certainly have no problem with fishing, or other means of turning animals into food, why should seals be different? I suppose one could argue fishing is just as cruel, you have them push a hook through their cheek, pull them up through the water by that, which ought to be bloody painful, and then when they get into the boat and suddenly can't breathe anymore, what do you do? Club 'em!
I tried fishing once, hated it. Not a hunter, either. But I can't really object when I enjoy what comes from that without being a hypocrite, can I? Not to the idea of it, anyway. The method, okay. And I do.
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 12:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
I'm not sure that 3 weeks old is the definition of an adult seal.
it's the definition of an adult seal according to the Canadian Department of Fisheries. the law states that they can kill seals that have molted their white coats, but they molt their coats after only 2 or 3 weeks, while they're still nursing on their mothers. it's just a way to misrepresent to the public what really goes on.
the fact is, they break this law all the time too.
here's a question: why do you think the Canadian government makes it illegal to view or photograph a seal hunt?
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” - General George S. Patton |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 12:28:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur
Talking about "difficult ice conditions this year" is ridiculous because that's Nature.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust
that's your opinion. my point was, they're already having a tough year this year without a bunch of people clubbing them to death
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” - General George S. Patton |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 12:36:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Yeah, I agree that lack of fish is completely our own fault (I think I said that?), but now there are so few left that letting them go un-checked could do what you've quoted Carolyn as saying. Obviously there are enough fish for the existing population, and probably extra enough to feed more (I don't know one way or the other), but probably not unchecked. Hence some limits on the number of seals. Few/no predators in that region anymore (polar bears and humans are not exactly fast friends) has not helped.
They're also trying to rebuild what was almost wiped out by us and others and I suppose. Make no mistake, the whole scenario is human fault. But turning seals loose on what remains in the Grand Banks won't help. This way, some people make some money, get some food, get on TV, and the fish population gets a chance to regrow. Cod fishing in the banks has been stopped for quite a few years as well, at least insofar as we are able to.
I suppose we could try to introduce orcas. Though I've seen the way they kill their prey and am not convinced it's any more humane. :)
All I'm saying is there's more to the issue than a barbaric hunt for the sake of tradition, and it's worth examining why and what else could be done in this. Sorry to play Devil's Advocate, but it can be a fun game.
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."
there are radically different opinons about this depending on who you talk to. if you talk to the scientists who work for the Canadian Department Of Fisheries they say that the seals are eating all the cod and that's why there needs to be a seal "cull".. If you talk to non-Canadian Fishing Industry-sponsored scientists, they'll tell you that harp seals actually don't eat much cod but in fact eat the larger fish that are predators of cod. so in fact, having higher seal populations will increase cod populations.
studies have shown that earlier in the century there were an estimated 30 million seals in Newfoundland co-existing with exorbitant numbers of cod.
The basic fact is that the seals are being skapegoated by the Canadian government to cover up their own mis-managemnet of their fisheries. like darwin said, the cod are dwindling because they've simply been overfished.
also, the argument that the fisherman need that winter income is different depending on who you talk to. it's actually a very small percentage of their yearly income (they only work for a few weeks).
when you factor in how much the Canadian government spends to support the hunt (sending gigantic Coast Guard ice-breakers to lead the sealers up, along with police and Department Of Fisheries officers).. it's almost as much as the amount of money the sealers bring in. they could just take that and give it directly to the fishermen.
for years environmentalists have suggested starting some kind of touirst program where people can pay to get on an icebreaker and view the seals. the tourism from that could bring in more money than the "hunt".. but they insist that it's tradition.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” - General George S. Patton |
Edited by - floop on 04/03/2006 12:52:16 |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 12:51:11
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur
Talking about "difficult ice conditions this year" is ridiculous because that's Nature.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust
that's your opinion. my point was, they're already having a tough year this year without a bunch of people clubbing them to death
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” - General George S. Patton
Saying 'they're already having a tough year" is highly ridiculous.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 12:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur
quote:
Originally posted by floop
quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur
Talking about "difficult ice conditions this year" is ridiculous because that's Nature.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust
that's your opinion. my point was, they're already having a tough year this year without a bunch of people clubbing them to death
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” - General George S. Patton
Saying 'they're already having a tough year" is highly ridiculous.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust
i don't even understand your stance monsieur. on one hand you say you oppose the seal hunt, but then you say that people who oppose the seal hunt only do because they're cute, and they're really ignorant.
which is it?
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” - General George S. Patton |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
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Fartbone
- FB Fan -
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 13:03:49
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nuke canada and away with it
Horale Cabrones |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 13:10:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Actually, as far as it goes, Danny did okay for himself aside from a few points where he blatantly dodged what I thought were valid points, when you consider the way he was being painted.
and when he blatantly lied saying that sealers don't use clubs on the seals while they showed footage of sealers clubbing seals
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” - General George S. Patton |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 13:44:53
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
there are radically different opinons about this depending on who you talk to. if you talk to the scientists who work for the Canadian Department Of Fisheries they say that the seals are eating all the cod and that's why there needs to be a seal "cull".. If you talk to non-Canadian Fishing Industry-sponsored scientists, they'll tell you that harp seals actually don't eat much cod but in fact eat the larger fish that are predators of cod. so in fact, having higher seal populations will increase cod populations.
studies have shown that earlier in the century there were an estimated 30 million seals in Newfoundland co-existing with exorbitant numbers of cod.
The basic fact is that the seals are being skapegoated by the Canadian government to cover up their own mis-managemnet of their fisheries. like darwin said, the cod are dwindling because they've simply been overfished.
also, the argument that the fisherman need that winter income is different depending on who you talk to. it's actually a very small percentage of their yearly income (they only work for a few weeks).
when you factor in how much the Canadian government spends to support the hunt (sending gigantic Coast Guard ice-breakers to lead the sealers up, along with police and Department Of Fisheries officers).. it's almost as much as the amount of money the sealers bring in. they could just take that and give it directly to the fishermen.
for years environmentalists have suggested starting some kind of touirst program where people can pay to get on an icebreaker and view the seals. the tourism from that could bring in more money than the "hunt".. but they insist that it's tradition.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” - General George S. Patton
Very interesting, I'd not heard that argument (seals eating predators thereby helping populations of cod recover). But you are correct. My mistake. A person has to be very careful these days when they read something. Or rather where. Like CNN. But more later.
I never made or put forward the argument that anyone other than humans are responsible for the lack of cod. I certainly don't blame seals. Nature balances itself out. Perhaps that's the best argument for leaving seals alone, except, if we presume they eat significant amounts of cod or that the bigger fish eating the cod (which would be, what? can't think of any fish living in the area that would be eating the cod, but I'm no biologist) and we are already affecting one portion of the environment, then we're interfering like it or not.
Regarding babies, from the Dept. of Fisheries, "Furthermore, adult seals cannot be harvested when they are in breeding or birthing grounds and younger seals must be weaned, self-reliant and independent."
I don't know much about the economics of the seal hunt. That's not the major issue I have, I guess. I'm sure there's something in it for the guys doing it, otherwise why would they, but perhaps it is a bloated way of giving welfare money to them. I'd love to see numbers. I'm sure the CTF would be on them about it if this were the case.
If we're strictly talking economics, and not method of killing or killing period, then yeah, perhaps tourism could be a bigger money maker than harvesting seals. But then we'd have to ask why this isn't happening now? Why would you go through the work and controversy of killing seals, spending time and more work taking what can be used from them, and then disposing, if you could just run a ship out once a day and make more money? Who would do more work for less on purpose? Plus, how do you get to them? The icebreaker that is so expensive as to make the current operation unprofitable? I don't know what's right and not, but doesn't it raise questions with you?
As for Monsieur, I think his point is valid. Why do we object so strongly to the seal hunt and not to killing other animals? Why is it not okay to hunt seals but deer, fish, etc, no problem? Slaughtering cattle to make your burritos? Which is MY objection to the hunt, that I don't think the method of killing could be nicer, but if they're hunting, they're hunting. Doesn't matter if it's a cute seal or a fat cow.
Finally, as I said, they all were idiots (I didn't catch the whole thing, but if he said they don't club them, then that certainly falls under idiot/politician category) but when you consider that CNN was against him from the start, he didn't do so bad.
Perhaps if they showed footage of a guy feeding his hungry little girl while the McCartneys were talking about the lack of economic benefit, it wouldn't have gone quite so great for them either?
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2006 : 13:52:15
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"What are you?"
"I'm an otter."
"And what do you do?"
"I swim around on my back and do cute little human things with my hands."
"You're free to go." (Gives the otter the thumbs-up sign, turns back)
"And what are you?"
"I'm a cow."
"Get in the fuckin' truck, okay, pal?"
"But I'm an animal."
"You're a baseball glove."
"I'm an animal."
"You're a hat. Get on that fucking truck!"
(Haha, I must have this movie memorized.)
"Don't eat the tuna fish."
"Why?"
(Crying) "Dolphins are getting stuck in the nets!"
"But what about the tuna fish?!"
All kidding aside,
I would bet money on this one Dean;
"but perhaps it is a bloated way of giving welfare money to them."
__________
Don't believe the hype. |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 04/03/2006 13:56:10 |
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animal cruelty
Does anyone remember laughter?