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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
 Posted - 12/14/2005 : 15:10:26
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Seriously. This could be a good one.
What do you think about today's execution by lethal injection of Crips founder Stanley "Tookie" Williams?
Schwartzenegger's native Austria has maligned the governor for not sparing the convict's life. Celebrities such as Snoop Dogg have embraced Tookie as a martyr wrongly found guilty of killing four innocent people with a sawed-off shotgun, who became a man of peace and devoted his life to helping kids.
I got some heaven in my head
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Edited by - kathryn on 12/14/2005 15:11:57 |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 15:35:51
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I've not read too much about it, but from what I understand he was heavily involved in educating young people against gangs. Anti-gang groups are pretty upset by this. I guess there is a case for commuting a death sentence if a guy shows willing in the 18 years it takes to execute them. More lives might actually have been saved by commuting his death sentence, so in that sense the execution was incredibly short-sighted.
I've no idea how 'safe' the conviction was, but generally speaking,I'm not really opposed to the death penalty (although I am wavering).
That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 15:51:02
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| he was executed yesterday. |
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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 16:02:42
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You're killing me floop!
I was alone...in my BIG BED
-bRIAN |
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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 16:11:04
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It's our fault thinking it would be cool to have Swartzenegger be our governor. Get this...now Mel Gibson may run. At least he's American (with an accent). People in Austria are actually so disgusted with Arnold, they want him stripped of his Austrian citizenship (!). I am not totally opposed to the death penalty...but at the same time it doesn't always seem right. I think this situation with the execution of 'Tookie' was terribly handled by Swartzenegger.
I was alone...in my BIG BED
-bRIAN |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 16:54:44
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| The celebrity opposition to his execution seemed mostly to come from those who oppose the death penalty under all circumstances, so that opposition really didn't address the merits of his case. And to the extent that the opposition comes out of rap culture, they have made clear just how much they respect life and the autonomy of the individual. As if celebrity testimonial ever possesses much merit. My assumption is that he was guilty, given that the merits of the case were looked at by the gamut of agencies and courts. I do think Swartzenegger bungled it by waiting till the last minute, giving the impression he was largely testing the political winds. For a host of reasons, European outrage carries little weight with me. Almost no moral credibility there. Regarding Tookie's subsequent good works, finding god perhaps from guilt and fear for his own life, hardly from the love that should be the basis of faith, and writing a couple kids' books that had sold a total of less than 500 copies, does not at all balance depriving innocent people of their lives and futures. I say judge perpetrators down to the level of their own standards. In Tookie's case, a shotgun blast would have sufficed. |
Edited by - Erebus on 12/14/2005 16:55:18 |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 17:04:50
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| Honestly it is six times cheaper not to execute people than it is to keep them in prison. Not sure why we do it to anyone. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 17:21:48
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
he was executed yesterday.
Shoot. Is it Wednesday already? Dang.
I got some heaven in my head
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HeywoodJablome
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 17:28:30
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Hard to have a set opinion on the death penalty. I do think however, if you make the concious decision to murder someone in cold blood, you better damn well prepare yourself to deal with whatever punishment they hand to you if your finally caught and convicted.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
"I'll bet any of you lame ass motherfuckers a cigarette I can eat every butt in this ash tray." |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 20:20:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Honestly it is six times cheaper not to execute people than it is to keep them in prison. Not sure why we do it to anyone.
revenge |
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Domestiques
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
503 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 00:54:14
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
Seriously. This could be a good one.
What do you think about today's execution by lethal injection of Crips founder Stanley "Tookie" Williams?
Schwartzenegger's native Austria has maligned the governor for not sparing the convict's life. Celebrities such as Snoop Dogg have embraced Tookie as a martyr wrongly found guilty of killing four innocent people with a sawed-off shotgun, who became a man of peace and devoted his life to helping kids.
I got some heaven in my head
I am on the whole against the death penalty, but the thing is this fella embraced a gang lifestyle, and it is very likely that he killed people. Now to say that he has turned his back on that and repented, well that will have something to do with the fact that he got caught and ended up in prison for it, you are going to aren't you.
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All I know there was humous. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 01:35:03
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not that it has anything to do with this case
as long as people make mistakes in court (and they will always do)
I'm against the death penalty
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God save the Noisies |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 03:20:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Honestly it is six times cheaper not to execute people than it is to keep them in prison.
I couldn't agree more with your statement.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 03:31:18
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Btw, I don't know what to think about this case. I am against the death penalty. But I don't see why people who have "found god" in the death row should be treated differently. It is funny to see that these people always embrace the religion of the majority of the country where they are. If "Tookie" had found Buddha, noone would ever give a fuck. Does it mean that people who believe in God have more right to live than those who don't?
If you truly repent, it is not something you are looking a reward for.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 04:14:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Honestly it is six times cheaper not to execute people than it is to keep them in prison. Not sure why we do it to anyone.
Aren't you not killing them by keeping them in prison?
 I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 04:33:49
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This case continues to intrigue, frustrate and amuse -- the Los Angeles Times says some of his celebrity supporters are comparing him to Rosa Parks.
I got some heaven in my head
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Z_Zoquis
- FB Fan -
145 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 04:53:20
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| Just like what happened with the Patti Shiavo situation, the activists (celebrity or otherwise) will say or do literally anything in order to make the point of whatever their position is. It has literally nothing to do with the actual circumstances of the case in question. Here we have a man about to be executed for killing four(?) innocent people (I don't believe there were any requests for clemency coming from the activists for those four lives before they were taken) who has apparently repented (and done some "anti-gang" work) and found religion during his twenty odd years on death row. To the anti-DP activists this is gold. His guilt or innocence isn't even the issue - it's simply a perfect opportunity for them to make their case. I'm surprised they haven't yet claimed he killed his victims in self defence after they attacked him based on his race. THe only issue I have with the death penalty is the potential that an innocent man might be wrongly convicted - but given the fact that these cases often go through decades of appeals before the actual death penalty is enacted, that's a fairly remote possibility. I know the anti-DP activists don't believe it is, but it is... |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 06:43:23
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I sent him an email asking him to commute. Weird writing to someone of whom your only childhood memories are of snapping peoples' necks to be gracious. Here's what I got back:
Thank you for your email to Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.
The Governor appreciates hearing from concerned and involved Californians, as
well as from individuals all over the world who have an interest in California.
Governor Schwarzenegger is committed to restoring your confidence in state
government. As the Governor has said, with hard work and your help, California
will once again be the "Golden Dream by the Sea".
Due to the unprecedented number of emails sent to the Governor, there may be a
delay in immediately responding to your email. Please know that the Governor's
office is making every effort to respond to your inquiry and will ensure that
your voice is heard by the Governor.
To help us respond to you, please include your email address when you
communicate with the Governor's Office. Please note that we are unable to accept
e-mail attachments because of the risk of Internet viruses. We ask that you
please send your attachments via traditional mail to:
Office of the Governor
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814
For more information about Governor Schwarzenegger and the State of California,
please visit the California website at www.ca.gov.
Again, thank you for your email. Governor Schwarzenegger is proud to serve you
and all Californians.
--
Buy your best friend flowers. Buy your lover a beer. Covet thy father. Covet thy neighbour's father. Honour thy lover's beer. Covet thy neighbour's father's wife's sister. Take her to bingo night. |
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two reelers
* Dog in the Sand *
Austria
1036 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 09:14:57
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over here in austria, arnie is pretty unpopular for his latest decision.
but the whole austria-arnie-governator-story is a showcase for typical retarded austrian behaviour: a guy finds himself limited over here, so he goes into the land where everything should be possible and launches a succesful career as a film-star. his movies (and him) are laughed at over here (ala "typical brutal cheap american rubbish"). he becomes governor, and suddenly, the lost son is the darling of the masses again. politicians who didn't get tired to blame america for everything evil in the world (unreflected anti-americanism is a topic over here) suddenly can't get enough photos of themselves with the governor of calif. and oh, one day he will become president, and than, an austrian (!) will be the leader of the last superpower on earth ! of course, it is forgotten, that to become sucessful, he had to leave austria and turn to an american.
and now, how surprisingly, he acts like an american and not like an austrian. and this is what people blame him for....not that he actually decided to let williams be killed, but that he turned to an american. this is what i mean with retarded behaviour.
this all has nothing to do with my opinion on the death penalty. i think it should be abolished. and as long as it isn't, a governor (or whoever has power in such a situation) should turn ALL death penalties to life long prison or whatever. but it is definitely extremely difficult to weigh one case against another. i couldn't do it.
also, i don't have any special sympathy (or anti-sympathy) for arnold. i don't really watch the movies, either. i have no idea if he is doing good as a politician. is he ?
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 12:48:51
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quote:
Originally posted by two reelers
also, i don't have any special sympathy (or anti-sympathy) for arnold. i don't really watch the movies, either. i have no idea if he is doing good as a politician. is he ?
It's unlikely he will be re-elected. In the recent California "special election," all the propositions he supported were voted down. |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 14:13:07
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daisy, care to back that claim up with some math - maybe a source?
just askin.
don't seem logical that food, lodging and health care for a person for 20+ years can cost six times less than an injection and burial.
i love the way this makes me feel:
http://www.walken2008.com |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 14:28:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Honestly it is six times cheaper not to execute people than it is to keep them in prison. Not sure why we do it to anyone.
actually.
umm..
am i missing something?
is there a grammatical error here?
are you saying it is "six times cheaper" to set the deathrow inmate free than it is to execute him?
are you saying it is "six times cheaper" to keep him in jail than it is to execute him?
if you are "not executing" people and you are not "keeping them in prison" then, you're setting them free, right?
you are obviously a death penalty oppponent, but whats with the "six times cheaper" bit?
just
don't
understand
help
I love the way this makes me feel.
http://www.walken2008.com |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 14:28:18
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quote:
Originally posted by KimStanleyRobinson
daisy, care to back that claim up with some math - maybe a source?
just askin.
don't seem logical that food, lodging and health care for a person for 20+ years can cost six times less than an injection and burial.
Although Daisy's statement makes no literal sense, I found a couple interesting articles on it:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=17&did=452
http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html
I don't think the costs are surprising at all when you consider all the lawyers cashing in on the system. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 15:34:13
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Capital punishment's financial aspect is important, as is another angle: secondary victims' psychological needs.
I've met a couple of relatives of murder victims who insisted that they needed the perp to be killed.
Until his father was murdered, one of these people had been a rigorous death-penalty opponent. This feeling inside himself shocked him but he said that after the murderer was executed, he finally felt he could move past his father's murder.
It's important both psychologically and legally for the surviving victims to have their say in the perp's punishment. That's why courts take into consideration victim impact statements, which range from "the thief took my glasses and in addition to doing time for theft he should pay for a new pair" to "the murderer killed my mom and I won't feel closure until he's dead, too." So, too, in some cases victims' families lobby for clemency and find "closure" in helping spare the criminal's life.
I used to be staunchly anti-capital punishment. Then, through work, I spent some time with a few murderers, some of whom I guarantee you the world would be better off without. There are those rare exceptions where it doesn't diminish us as a species to dispatch one of our own. I don't want my tax dollars paying for their bologna sandwiches.
I got some heaven in my head
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 15:38:41
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ah.
i went off half cocked there.
well.
ok.
but see - the life in prison numer is concrete...moslty.
the death penalty appeals number is not, so it rather feels like appples and oranges in a way.
in a way.
i know i know - the numbers are eal and they speak for themselves.
*sigh*
Arnold said that he didn't grant the stay because tookie "never expressed remorse"...and tookie maintained he was innocent...to the end.
was he remorseless or innocent?
if you were truly innocent would you falsely confess/express remorse for a crime you didn't commit if you thought you'd be granted a stay?
I love the way this makes me feel.
http://www.walken2008.com |
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prozacrat
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1186 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 17:23:59
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I doubt somebody who has changed his ways, as much as people say Tookie did, would devise an elaborate plan to escape from prison that involved blowing up a prison transport, killing two guards, and then murdering Coward, who testified against him.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47647
I think there are some better alternatives to the death penalty for some death row inmates, but I don't think Tookie was one of those deserving that. And it's not like they didn't give him a chance to make a better case for himself. He lost appeal after appeal. I think that would make a difference too. If there was really a necessary outrage over his death penalty, we should have been hearing about it after each appeal was lost, rather than the last minute.
http://www.prozacrat.com |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 18:07:10
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quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
not that it has anything to do with this case
as long as people make mistakes in court (and they will always do)
I'm against the death penalty
---------------------------
God save the Noisies
Right out of my own thoughts.
 "Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 18:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
not that it has anything to do with this case
as long as people make mistakes in court (and they will always do)
I'm against the death penalty
Just for the sake of argument here...
If you know that mistakes are sometimes made in court, where do you draw the line as to what's acceptable and what's not? Why lock up anyone unless it's an open-and-shut case? A lifetime of prison is almost as cruel as death (some would say it's more cruel). |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 19:11:50
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because there's always the possiblityof new evidence coming out, appeals etc.
that is wasted on a dead person...
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 01:15:38
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I am mainly against the death penalty because I don't trust the authorities. Law and morality are two separate concepts.
For example, we all know that high treason is considered as the most serious crime in each country. All of us will agree that a guy who raped and killed children is more horrible than a CIA agent who sold secret information to the KGB. The first objective of the law is the self preservation of the State. That is why all the laws are examined in order to see if they are constitutional.
Now let's think about some "special" situations. During a war, it becomes legal to kill people as long as they belong to the ennemy nation. During WW2, the police sent jewish kids to concentration camps.
Death penalty advocates tend to think like this: "should we give the power to kill to the universal law of morality?" and their answer is "yes".
But this is power you give to people who are subjective and who pursue their own interests.
This is not about nsome naive humanism, for example, I would like Marc Dutroux, belgian paedophile and children murderer, to be killed. But for 100 people who deserve the death penalty, there might be one that doesn't, and I don't want to put such a power in the hands of the judges.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 02:39:30
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About death penalty - while covering the trial of Adolf Eichmann in 1961, Hannah Arendt wrote:
"Just as you supported and carried out a policy of not wanting to share the Earth with the Jewish people, and the people of a number of other nations, as though you and your superiors had any right to determine who should and who should not inhabit the world, we find that no one, that is no member of the human race, can be expected to share the Earth with you. This is the reason, and the only reason you must hang."
Just my 2 cents.
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"In the magnificent fierce morning of New Mexico, one sprang awake, a new part of the soul woke up suddenly and the old world gave way to the new." - D. H. Lawrence
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 03:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
About death penalty - while covering the trial of Adolf Eichmann in 1961, Hannah Arendt wrote:
"Just as you supported and carried out a policy of not wanting to share the Earth with the Jewish people, and the people of a number of other nations, as though you and your superiors had any right to determine who should and who should not inhabit the world, we find that no one, that is no member of the human race, can be expected to share the Earth with you. This is the reason, and the only reason you must hang."
Just my 2 cents.
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"In the magnificent fierce morning of New Mexico, one sprang awake, a new part of the soul woke up suddenly and the old world gave way to the new." - D. H. Lawrence
Hannah Arendt has done some great work, but this statement is purely rhetoric and doesn't mean anything.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 04:50:27
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Hannah Arendt is making my point about bologna sandwiches but with fancier language.
I got some heaven in my head
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 05:29:51
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Death penalty is not about not allowing someone to live. It is about retaliation. You are clearly trying to humiliate him by violently expropriating him of himself i.e. his life. For example, they are very careful about preventing any suicide attempts. If it was only about not allowing him to live, you would let him take his own life if he wants to.
By the way, Hannah Arendt has nothing to do with the purely economic motivations "I am not going to pay for a murderer..."
That argument is quickly self contradicting because what you are paying for is the whole crime&punishment system and you can't really focus on individual cases. Your sandwich money also goes to a boy who stole a wallet. I don't think that this boy deserves your money either, you see. Punishment costs money.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 05:54:31
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quote:
Originally posted by KimStanleyRobinson
quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Honestly it is six times cheaper not to execute people than it is to keep them in prison. Not sure why we do it to anyone.
actually.
umm..
am i missing something?
is there a grammatical error here?
are you saying it is "six times cheaper" to set the deathrow inmate free than it is to execute him?
are you saying it is "six times cheaper" to keep him in jail than it is to execute him?
if you are "not executing" people and you are not "keeping them in prison" then, you're setting them free, right?
you are obviously a death penalty oppponent, but whats with the "six times cheaper" bit?
just
don't
understand
help
I love the way this makes me feel.
http://www.walken2008.com
This is why I posted what I did. I hope it's a typo anyway.
I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 06:24:12
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Prison in some cases, it could be argued, is not a fitting deterrent anymore. Would a more severe punishment such as the death penalty inthe instance of murder (or chemical castration for rapists and paedophiles) which is fitting to the crime, be more off putting than a life in prison?
I remember watching a documentary about moors murderer Ian Brady and Myra Hindley. Hindley was never released from prison, this was an aspect of the documentary, whether or not she has attoned for her crimes and should be given a second chance. She did it, she was there for the death of those kids and she was part of it and there is no doubt about it. Her cell, was nicer than my bedroom. She had sky TV, she smoked heavily (I wish I could afford to smoke heavily). She's in prison, which no it can't be fun, but it doesn't look like a living hell to me, which it could be argued the parents of all the children that died at the hands of these people had to suffer through.
She died in prison.
Like to point out, not maybe my thoughts as I don't know where I stand on the death penalty practice, or the principle. |
Edited by - starmekitten on 12/16/2005 06:28:02 |
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Another compelling fb.net thread
