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The Holiday Son
= Quote Accumulator =
France
2010 Posts |
 Posted - 10/15/2005 : 10:51:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl
The French version has 5 extra tracks?! How did I not hear about that?!
I have the limited edition with the bonus CD, with Headache (NY City Version), Hate Me and Amnesia. Are these tracks included on the French version of the album?
No.
He must be talking about the limited edition. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 11:02:06
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quote:
Since you posted a link to an article that is 98% bullsh*t, I think it's a little much to take me to task for not specifying that I only produced 5 tracks on the cd.
Honestly, I fail to see the connection between the two things.
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
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Jontiven
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 11:38:14
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The five tracks I did with him way back when were "Hate Me," "At the End of the World," "Oddsballs," "Men In Black," and "Headache (Ny version)." You all probably know that. I was told by The Manager that these were included in the French version of TOTY, although I do not have a copy. These songs were also on several EPs and the ODDBALLS cd. I hope this clears up any confusion.
Regarding VoVat's question, I think it's unreasonable for someone to call me out for not providing fine points to my details after he posts a link to a tripe-filled article as if it is enlightening. If you want to curry any kind of favor with me, insults are not the way. There is no way that anyone can read that article and not see it as a personal attack on me. And I don't find it interesting to participate in a Tiven pile-on. So even though I love you guys and gals, if you want me to validate crap like that it's not going to happen. Even though this thread is obviously about me, this site is about Frank Black and I will do what I can to give you the skinny as long as I am treated with respect. Not deferentially, but with respect, like the kind that human beings show other human beings.
love,
Jon Tiven |
Edited by - Jontiven on 10/15/2005 11:58:03 |
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jtanner
- FB Fan -
89 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 11:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Jontiven
The five tracks I did with him way back when were "Hate Me," "At the End of the World," "Oddsballs," "Men In Black," and "Headache (Ny version)." You all probably know that. I was told by The Manager that these were included in the French version of TOTY, although I do not have a copy. These songs were also on several EPs and the ODDBALLS cd. I hope this clears up any confusion.
love,
Jon Tiven
They're also on the Japanese v. of Teenager. |
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dayanara
* Dog in the Sand *
Australia
1811 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 11:51:18
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so then wouldn't you agree that it's really stretching to claim on your resume that you "produced toty"?
i am sitting here observing my emotional discomfort. |
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jtanner
- FB Fan -
89 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 11:53:40
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quote:
Originally posted by dayanara
so then wouldn't you agree that it's really stretching to claim on your resume that you "produced toty"?
i am sitting here observing my emotional discomfort.
I never claimed that. |
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dayanara
* Dog in the Sand *
Australia
1811 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 11:57:05
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forgive me for not quoting tiven's page long resume
i am sitting here observing my emotional discomfort. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 12:11:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Jontiven
Do not look a gift horse in the mouth, it might throw you.
love,
Jon Tiven
when do we get the gifts? |
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Jontiven
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 12:19:30
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As if the other gifts weren't enough, here's another:
The National Emergency Civil Liberties Committee (NECLC), founded in
1951 and known for many years simply as the Emergency Civil Liberties
Committee (ECLC), annually held a Bill of Rights Dinner which
gathered together members and friends of the organization and
provided a setting for the presentation of the group's Tom Paine
Award, given once yearly since 1958 in recognition of distinguished
service in the fight for civil liberty. The recipient of the 1963
award was singer/songwriter Bob Dylan who accepted the award on
December 13 at the Dinner in New York, which also featured noted
author James Baldwin.
What follows here is a most remarkable set of three documents: first,
Bob Dylan's extemporaneous speech, probably typed out later from an
audio tape, then an eloquent letter in defense of Dylan and of youth
itself from Corliss Lamont, who was then Chairman of the ECLC, and
finally, a most beautiful and poetic explanation by Dylan himself
analyzing and expressing his tumult of feelings on the occasion. Read
on.....
TRANSCRIPT OF BOB DYLAN'S REMARKS AT THE BILL OF RIGHTS DINNER
at the Americana Hotel on 12/13/63
I haven't got any guitar, I can talk though. I want to thank you for
the Tom Paine award in behalf everybody that went down to Cuba. First
of all because they're all young and it's took me a long time to get
young and now I consider myself young. And I'm proud of it. I'm proud
that I'm young. And I only wish that all you people who are sitting
out here today or tonight weren't here and I could see all kinds of
faces with hair on their head - and everything like that, everything
leading to youngness, celebrating the anniversary when we overthrew
the House Un-American Activities just yesterday, - Because you people
should be at the beach. You should be out there and you should be
swimming and you should be just relaxing in the time you have to
relax. (Laughter) It is not an old peoples' world. It is not an old
peoples' world. It has nothing to do with old people. Old people when
their hair grows out, they should go out. (Laughter) And I look down
to see the people that are governing me and making my rules - and
they haven't got any hair on their head - I get very uptight about
it. (Laughter)
And they talk about Negroes, and they talk about black and white. And
they talk about colors of red and blue and yellow. Man, I just don't
see any colors at all when I look out. I don't see any colors at all
and if people have taught through the years to look at colors - I've
read history books, I've never seen one history book that tells how
anybody feels. I've found facts about our history, I've found out
what people know about what goes on but I never found anything about
anybody feels about anything happens. It's all just plain facts. And
it don't help me one little bit to look back.
I wish sometimes I could have come in here in the 1930's like my
first idol - used to have an idol, Woody Guthrie, who came in the
1930's (Applause). But it has sure changed in the time Woody's been
here and the time I've been here. It's not that easy any more. People
seem to have more fears.
I get different presents from people that I play for and they bring
presents to me backstage - very weird, weird presents - presents that
I couldn't buy. They buy - they bring me presents that - I've got
George Lincoln Rockwell's tie clip that somebody robbed for me.
(Laughter) I have General Walker's car trunk keys - keys to his trunk
that somebody robbed for me. Now these are my presents. I have
fallout shelter signs that people robbed for me from Philadelphia and
these are the little signs. There's no black and white, left and
right to me anymore; there's only up and down and down is very close
to the ground. And I'm trying to go up without thinking about
anything trivial such as politics. They has got nothing to do with
it. I'm thinking about the general people and when they get hurt.
I want to accept this award, the Tom Paine Award, from the Emergency
Civil Liberties Committee. I want to accept it in my name but I'm not
really accepting it in my name and I'm not accepting it in any kind
of group's name, any Negro group or any other kind of group. There
are Negroes - I was on the march on Washington up on the platform and
I looked around at all the Negroes there and I didn't see any Negroes
that looked like none of my friends. My friends don't wear suits. My
friends don't have to wear suits. My friends don't have to wear any
kind of thing to prove that they're respectable Negroes. My friends
are my friends, and they're kind, gentle people if they're my
friends. And I'm not going to try to push nothing over. So, I accept
this reward - not reward, (Laughter) award in behalf of Phillip Luce
who led the group to Cuba which all people should go down to Cuba. I
don't see why anybody can't go to Cuba. I don't see what's going to
hurt by going any place. I don't know what's going to hurt anybody's
eyes to see anything. On the other hand, Phillip is a friend of mine
who went to Cuba. I'll stand up and to get uncompromisable about it,
which I have to be to be honest, I just got to be, as I got to admit
that the man who shot President Kennedy, Lee Oswald, I don't know
exactly where --what he thought he was doing, but I got to admit
honestly that I too - I saw some of myself in him. I don't think it
would have gone - I don't think it could go that far. But I got to
stand up and say I saw things that he felt, in me - not to go that
far and shoot. (Boos and hisses) You can boo but booing's got nothing
to do with it. It's a - I just a - I've got to tell you, man, it's
Bill of Rights is free speech and I just want to admit that I accept
this Tom Paine Award in behalf of James Forman of the Students
Non-Violent Coordinating Committee and on behalf of the people who
went to Cuba. (Boos and Applause)
LETTER FROM CORLISS LAMONT TO ATTENDEES OF THE DINNER
The review referred to by Mr. Lamont in this letter was written by
Robert Shelton and appeared in The New York Times of October 28,
1963. It was a review of a solo concert given by Bob Dylan at
Carnegie Hall.
( D-R-A-F-T )
December 19, 1963
Dear Friend:
Many of our friends disapproved our choice of Bob Dylan for the Tom
Paine award. Without defending his acceptance speech, I would like to
tell you why we feel he deserved the award. Bob Dylan has sent us a
message which more clearly conveys his feelings. It is enclosed and I
urge you to read it carefully.
E.C.L.C. defends the right of all Americans to advocate their
beliefs. This is not confined to ideology or political groups. It
should certainly be extended to our own youth, who according to many
experts are becoming increasingly alienated and lost in our present
society.
Whether we approve or not, Bob Dylan has become the idol of the
progressive youngsters of today, regardless of their political
factions. He is speaking to them in terms of protest that they
understand and applaud. (see the enclosed review from The New York
Times).
E.C.L.C. feels that it is urgent to recognize the protest of youth
today and to help make it understood by the older generation. Walt
Whitman and Woody Guthrie, the culture antecedents of Bob Dylan, were
not appreciated by their society until they were very old. We think
that it would be better to make the effort now to comprehend what Bob
Dylan is saying to and for the youth. It is true that he is not as
respectable as Lord Russell, the winner of last year's award, but
neither was Tom Paine, and our history is too full of disregard for
important messages which were unrespectable at the time.
The annual celebration of Bill of Rights Day is not just a
fund-raising affair - although we hope that our friends will help us
carry on our work - it is also an opportunity for us to present to
our supporters the problems of our democracy which in their daily
lives they are apt to over-look.
This year over 1400 people were at the largest civil liberties dinner
on record. We appreciate the understanding and support we received
from many of those present and we hope that others will gain from the
reading of the enclosed message by Bob Dylan an understanding which
his speech did not convey.
Yours sincerely,
Corliss Lamont
A MESSAGE
from Bob Dylan
(Sent to the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee after he received
the Tom Paine Award at the Bill of Rights dinner on December 13,
1963.)
to anybody it may concern...
clark?
mairi?
phillip?
edith?
mr lamont?
countless faces I do not know
an all fighters for good things that I can not see
when I speak of bald heads, I mean bald minds
when I speak of the seashore, I mean the restin shore
I dont know why I mentioned either of them
my life runs in a series of moods
in private an in personal ways, sometimes,
I, myself, can change the mood I'm in t the
mood I'd like t be in. when I walked thru the
doors of the americana hotel, I needed to change
my mood... for reasons inside myself.
I am a restless soul
hungry
perhaps wretched
it is hard to hear someone you dont know, say
"this is what he meant t say" about something
you just said
for no one can say what I meant t say
absolutely no one
at times I even cant
that was one of those times
my life is lived out daily in the places I feel
most confortable in. these places are places where
I am unknown an unstared at. I perform rarely, an
when I do, there is a constant commotion burnin
at my body an at my mind because of the attention
aimed at me. instincts fight my emotions an fears
fight my instincts...
I do not claim t be smart by the standards set up
I dont even claim to be normal by the standards
set up
an I do not claim to know any kind of truth
but like an artist who puts his painting (after
he's painted it) in front of thousands of unknown
eyes, I also put my song there that way
(after I've made it)
it is as easy an as simple as that
I can not speak. I can not talk
I can only write an I can only sing
perhaps I should've sung a song
but that wouldn't a been right either
for I was given an award not to sing
but rather on what I have sung
no what I should've said was
"thank you very much ladies an gentlemen"
yes that is what I should've said
but unfortunatly... I didn't
an I didn't because I did not know
I thought something else was expected of me
other than just sayin "thank you"
an I did not know what it was
it is a fierce heavy feeling
thinkin something is expected of you
but you dont know what exactly it is...
it brings forth a wierd form of guilt
I should've remembered
"I am BOB DYLAN an I dont have t speak
I dont have t say nothin if I dont wanna"
but
I didn't remember
I constantly asked myself while eatin supper
"what should I say? what should I tell 'm?
everybody else is gonna tell 'm something"
but I could not answer myself
I even asked someone who was sittin nex t me
an he couldn't tell me neither. my mind blew
up an needless t say I had t get it back in its
rightful shape (whatever that might be) an so
I escaped from the big room... only t hear my
name being shouted an the words "git in here
git in here" overlappin with the findin of my
hand being pulled across hundreds of tables
with the lights turned on strong... guidin me
back t where I tried t escape from
"what should I say? what should I say?"
over an over again
oh God, I'd a given anything not t be there
"shut the lights off at least"
people were coughin an my head was poundin
an the sounds of mumble jumble sank deep in
my skull from all sides of the room
until I tore everything loose from my mind
an said "just be honest, dylan, just be honest"
an so I found myself in front of the plank
like I found myself once in the path of a car
an I jumped...
jumped with all my bloody might
just tryin t get out a the way
but first screamin one last song
when I spoke of Lee Oswald, I was speakin of the times
I was not speakin of his deed if it was his deed.
the deed speaks for itself
but I am sick
so sick
at hearin "we all share the blame" for every
church bombing, gun battle, mine disaster,
poverty explosion, an president killing that
comes about.
it is so easy t say "we" an bow our heads together
I must say "I" alone an bow my head alone
for it is I alone who is livin my life
I have beloved companions but they do not
eat nor sleep for me
an even they must say "I"
yes if there's violence in the times then
there must be violence in me
I am not a perfect mute.
I hear the thunder an I cant avoid hearin it
once this is straight between us, it's then an
only then that we can say "we" an really mean
it... an go on from there t do something about
it
When I spoke of Negroes
I was speakin of my Negro friends
from harlem
an Jackson
selma an birmingham
atlanta pittsburg, an all points east
west, north, south an wherever else they
might happen t be.
in rat filled rooms
an dirt land farms
schools, dimestores, factories
pool halls an street corners
the ones that dont own ties
but know proudly they dont have to
not one little bit
they dont have t be like they naturally aint
t get what they naturally own no more 'n anybody
else does
it only gets things complicated
an leads people into thinkin the wrong things
black skin is black skin
It cant be covered by clothes an made t seem
acceptable, well liked an respectable...
t teach that or t think that just tends the
flames of another monster myth...
it is naked black skin an nothin else
if a Negro has t wear a tie t be a Negro
then I must cut off all ties with who he has
t do it for.
I do not know why I wanted t say this that
nite.
perhaps it was just one of the many things
in my mind
born from the confusion of my times
when I spoke about the people that went t Cuba
I was speakin of the free right t travel
I am not afraid t see things
I challenge seein things
I am insulted t the depths of my soul
when someone I dont know commands that I
cant see this an gives me mysterious reasons
why I'll get hurt if I do see it... tellin me
at the same time about goodness an badness in
people that again I dont know...
I've been told about people all my life
about niggers, kikes, wops, bohunks, spicks, chinks,
an I been told how they eat, dress, walk, talk,
steal, rob, an kill but nobody tells me how any
of 'm feels... nobody tells me how any of 'm cries
or laughs or kisses. I'm fed up with most newspapers,
radios, tv an movies an the like t tell me. I want
now t see an know for myself...
an I accepted that award for all others like me
who want t see for themselves... an who dont want
that God-given right taken away
stolen away
or snuck out from beneath them
yes a travel ban in the south would protect
Americans more, I'm sure, than the one t Cuba
but in all honesty I would want t crash that
one too
do you understand?
do you really understand?
I mean I want t see. I want t see all I can
everyplace there is t see it
my life carries eyes
an they're there for one reason
the reason t see thru them
my country is the Minnesota-North Dakota territory
that's where I was born an learned how t walk an
it's where I was raised an went t school... my
youth was spent wildly among the snowy hills an
sky blue lakes, willow fields an abandoned open
pit mines. contrary t rumors, I am very proud of
where I'm from an also of the many blood streams that
run in my roots. but I would not be doing what
I'm doing today if I hadn't come t New York. I was
given my direction from new york. I was fed in
new york. I was beaten down by new york an I was
picked up by new york. I was made t keep going on
by new york. I'm speakin now of the people I've met
who were strugglin for their lives an other peoples'
lives in the thirties an forties an the fifties
an I look t their times
I reach out t their times
an, in a sense, am jealous of their times
t think I have no use for "old" people is a betrayin thought
those that know me know otherwise
those that dont, probably're baffled
like a friend of mine, jack elliott, who says he
was reborn in Oklahoma, I say I was reborn in
New York...
there is no age limit stuck on it
an no one is more conscious of it than I
yes it is a fierce feeling, knowin something you
dont know about's expected of you. but it's worse
if you blindly try t follow with explodin words
(for that's all they can do is explode)
an the explodin words're misunderstood
I've heard I was misunderstood
I do not apologize for myself nor my fears
I do not apologize for any statement which led
some t believe "oh my God! I think he's the one
that really shot the president"
I am a writer an a singer of the words I write
I am no speaker nor any politician
an my songs speak for me because I write them
in the confinement of my own mind an have t cope
with no one except my own self. I dont have t face
anyone with them until long after they're done
no I do not apologize for being me nor any part of me
but I can return what is rightfully yours at any
given time. I have stared at it for a long while
now. it is a beautiful award. there is a kindness
t Mr Paine's face an there is almost a sadness in
his smile. his trials show thru his eyes. I know
really not much about him but somehow I would like
t sing for him. there is a gentleness t his way.
yes thru all my flounderin wildness, I am, when it
comes down to it, very proud that you have given this
t me. I would hang it high, an let my friends see in
it what I see, but I also would give it back if
you wish. There is no sense in keepin it if you've
made a mistake in givin it. for it means more'n any
store bought thing an it'd only be cheatin t keep it
also I did not know that the dinner was a donation
dinner. I did not know you were gonna ask anyone
for money. an I understand you lost money on the
masterful way I expressed myself... then I am in debt t you
not a money debt but rather a moral debt
if you'd a sold me something, then it'd be a money debt
but you sold nothin, so it is a moral debt
an moral debts're worse 'n money debts
for they have t be paid back in whatever is missin
an in this case, it's money
please send me my bill
an I shall pay it
no matter what the sum
I have a hatred of debts an want t be even in
the best way I can
you needn't think about this, for money means
very little t me
so then
I'll return once again t the road
I cant tell you why other people write, but I
write in order to keep from going insane.
my head, I expect'd turn inside out if my hands
were t leave me.
but I hardly ever talk about why I write. an I
scarcely ever think about it. the thought of it is
too alarmin
an I never ever talk about why I speak
but that's because I never do it. this is the
first time I am talkin about it... an I pray
the last
the thought of doing it again is too scary
ha! it's a scary world
but only once in a while huh?
I love you all up there an the ones I dont love,
it's only because I do not know them an have not
seen them... God it's so hard hatin. it's so
tiresome... an after hatin something to death,
it's never worth the bother an trouble
out! out! brief candle
life's but an open window
an I must jump back thru it now
see yuh
respectfully an unrespectfully
(sgd) bob dylan |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 12:19:46
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I'm not aiming to curry favour with you. That said, the article I linked to wasn't a personal attack on you on my part, just an example of the sort of thing the internet throws up, in the interests of a balanced perspective. It's an opinion that you clearly, and very reasonably disagree with, but by the same token I could easily have drawn some quotes from that Bowie review that was linked that I disagree with.
I don't appreciate being told to treat you with more respect when all I have from you is accusations. I realise other people have been less than polite in this thread but thats no reason to throw your toys out of the pram and start acting the same way yourself. I'm more than happy to treat you with respect and common courtesy, but I'd like to request not to be lectured on who deserves it and who doesn't.
 I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 13:49:57
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| Is this thread now a fillibuster? See who can paste the most text? |
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Jontiven
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 14:54:11
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Here's some authorized material, and very Frank-related:
Jon Tiven, a transplanted New Yorker now residing in Nashville, is a triple threat music industryite -- producer, songwriter and musician. With credits that are highly impressive, one of his latest productions, Frank Black's new solo album, Honeycomb, is getting him a lot of notoriety.
Most young musicians grow up wanting to emulate their rock ‘n’ roll heroes -- Keith Richards, Jimmy Page, John Lennon. Jon liked those guys, but the little names in parentheses below the song --- the writers --- were the people who grabbed his interest.
“I never thought I was much of a singer, but I always had songs of my own going on in my head,” Jon explains. “I heard them being sung by my favorite writers’ voices like Otis Redding, Sam Cooke, Bobby Womack and Don Covay. If I could make something like that happen, I knew that would be my calling.” By the time he reached his 30's that dream would be a reality, and in his 40's he would have the confidence to be reinventing blues and soul music.
"Jon Tiven believes in the greasy groove," states fellow songwriter Dan Penn. "He's a funky fellow, a fine record producer, a writer and player of soul music." Although Jon’s best known for writing songs for the premier blues artists of our time -- B.B.King, Buddy Guy and Robert Cray--Jon's career path is now leading him to produce alternative rock icon Frank Black and country artist Marty Brown. “I bring a little extra groove to whatever I do," says Jon, "and I try to stretch the boundaries of whatever form I’m in."
Jon started his career in music as a journalist, initially reviewing for his own fanzine, The New Haven Rock Press, which he started in 1967 at age 12 and edited for five years. As more traditional magazines became intrigued by this young journalist, they called upon him to review for them, and his byline was soon to appear in Rolling Stone, Fusion, and Melody Maker, among others. Although Jon took a stab at college at Yale and Sarah Lawrence, he was not particularly interested in graduating and took a job at Chess Records in 1975 in their New York office, where he took care of publicity and artist relations. Living in New York on his own gave him a thrill, but Chess was in the process of closing their East Coast branch. When they offered to relocate Tiven to Los Angeles, he turned them down and instead moved to Memphis. There he would produce his first record, Alex Chilton’s solo debut, as well as play guitar on a Major Lance recording, sign with East Memphis Music, and make some demos as the group Prix, which would eventually surface and land his partner Tommy Hoehn a deal with London Records.
When Jon returned to New York, he licensed the Chilton record to the upstart punk rock label Ork Records and continued his recording career producing for them. He made a solo album under the group moniker The Yankees, during which time he met the young Sally Young, who would eventually become his second guitarist, wife, and later, his bassist and co-writer. Embroiled in a lawsuit with the record label Big Sound Records that released the Yankees record, Jon was enjoined from taking advantage of the group’s success, but several artists began covering his songs. He started to realize his dream as an artist who did not have to tour. “I don’t drive and that’s for a good reason,” he explains. “I’m not crazy about riding in cars. Or vans. After about two hours I start getting really antsy, so I wanted to avoid that lifestyle at all costs.” Jon would take one more stab at the road as a member of The Jim Carroll Band (Dry Dreams, 1981) and then retire from touring.
Jon was starting to get more and more of his songs recorded and also was thrown into the “Saturday Night Live” entourage, first as John Belushi’s guitar teacher and sometimes guitarist, occasionally writing songs with Peter Aykroyd, which Dan Aykroyd would use in the film Spies Like Us, and eventually landing in a group with the comedy team of Al Franken and Tom Davis. The latter would spawn a film based on the group, One More Saturday Night (Columbia Pictures, 1986) which would feature Jon and Sally as actors as well as writers of five compositions.
Shortly thereafter, Jon rekindled a friendship with Don Covay, a favorite artist of his who he initially met in the ’70s while he was still a journalist. He, Sally and Covay began a series of all night writing sessions that would spawn a new solo record for Covay (D’ya Know What I’m Sayin, 1991, Island Records, which unfortunately to this day remains unreleased) and a big hit for Huey Lewis & the News, “He Don’t Know What To Do For You,” later recorded by Robert Cray and Otis Clay as well. The Tivens began playing sporadic performances with Covay, but when Covay had a stroke in the early ‘90s, there were no more gigs.
However, Jon was getting some fine production work. He produced four sides by B.B. King, was recruited by Shanachie for a series of three tribute albums to great soul songwriters (Curtis Mayfield, Otis Blackwell and Covay), and began writing songs with Dan Penn, Donnie Fritts, Spooner Oldham and Don Nix, which would open the door to his moving to Nashville 10 years later. Jon also took his last stab at being a recording artist with two albums under group names bearing his moniker: Jon Tiven’s Ego Trip and The Jon Tiven Group. Although the albums got good reviews, Tiven had neither the time nor inclination to adequately promote the albums in a live setting. Instead he would spend his time producing a succession of contemporary soul albums by Wilson Pickett and Covay that would bring critical acclaim, including Grammy and Handy nominations -- Wilson Pickett's It's Harder Now (Rounder) and Don Covay's Ad Lib (Cannonball) -- and eventually the attention of record labels offering him production deals. He went with eMusic and contracted with them to make seven records over two years. Among the artists he was to produce for eMusic was Ellis Hooks, Syl Johnson, Freddie Scott and Don Nix.
“Ellis is more or less a younger version of the guys I was used to working with,” Jon explains. “There’s a little bit of Pickett, a lot of Redding, and some Womack in him, too. And even some Robert Plant, Steve Marriott, and Van Morrison in there, but there’s a whole lot of Ellis. The guy has his own personality, and it’s strong.” Jon produced a series of five albums by Ellis which would receive terrific reviews and propel Ellis into a major European attraction, although his U.S. following is not quite as large…yet.
In 2002 Jon and his family moved to Nashville, where he would relocate his Hormone Studios to a more deluxe setting and produce nine albums by artists as diverse as Little Milton, Frank Black, Marty Brown, Ellis Hooks, Steve Cropper/Felix Cavaliere, and Essra Mohawk. He continues to write for other artists as well and collaborate with a host of co-writers in his new setting. Jon's songs have been recorded by Shemekia Copeland, Ricky Fante, Johnny Winter, Tinsley Ellis, and Deborah Coleman -- all since moving to Nashville.
“Nashville is Music City," Jon acknowledges, "and there’s a whole lot of folks here besides myself who aren’t completely locked into existing formats. I get to hang out with old friends like Dan Penn and new ones like Jack Clement. I like to stretch, and here I can do that. People know I do soul and blues, but I’m as interested as bringing that sensibility to other kinds of records. I'm held responsible for taking Frank Black into the world of the great soul musicians, which blows my mind, and I consider that a major accomplishment.”
How did you and Frank Black hook up?
Peter Lubin, who signed the Pixies to their Elektra deal, is someone I went to high school with, so when I was making my Otis Blackwell Tribute album in 1993, I asked Peter if he could put me in touch with Frank --- actually his name is Charles, Charles Thompson -- and Peter was very helpful. I had him do one song on the album, and it turned out so great he decided to do a second, and we really hit it off. I brought a friend of mine, Lyle Workman, to the session. He wanted to meet him, and within a matter of weeks Lyle became his guitarist. Which I guess Charles appreciated as well.
So we stayed in touch. I did a few more tribute albums and when I asked him to participate, he jumped in feet first, and then next thing I know he's asking me to produce an EP in New York. Around that time, we sat down and just talked about music, and he had musical goals in his life, one, of which, was to make a record in Nashville with "The Cats." I had done some writing in Nashville with Dan Penn, Donnie Fritts and Spooner Oldham, and for my money those were the veterans worthy of respect.
A few years later I ended up producing a few records in Nashville, and I got to know more of "The Cats." Charles and I would talk a few times a year, and I'd always put the bee in his bonnet about doing his Nashville album, He would give me a wink and a smile over the telephone as in "all in good time, my good man," so when he called me to tell me that he actually wanted to make this an actuality, it wasn't completely unexpected, but the timing couldn't have been better. For one thing, I had just moved to Nashville in 2002 so that made things a lot easier in terms of the logistics. And I was 10 years older, wiser and better equipped musically and emotionally to deal with a project of this artistic magnitude.
Why is this a project of artistic magnitude?
The artist wanted to take a flying leap at appealing to a wider audience, and he chose me to shepherd him into an area that he felt would be a challenge. Not everybody in the music business is looking for Peter Pan and eternal youth; some of us are open to actually growing older with dignity. And this is a very difficult business in which to do that and maintain a profile, because it's youth-youth-youth that the record companies keep seeking. So he wanted to make sure that he could take on this kind of an adult-oriented record and maintain his credibility, not seem too much of an old fart in the process, but at the same time acknowledge the fact that he was 40, just going through a divorce and singing about it. Who has done that before? Nevermind the clarity, the perspective, and the brilliance he brings to it...and uplift at the same time. This is a record that can change the way people look at their own lives. And dance to.
What makes a good producer?
There are a lot of aspects to producing and not every producer is right for every project. There are producers who do great at creating tracks but have no people skills, and there are producers who can create the right atmosphere in the studio and yet couldn't really talk musical language with the players. Some producers have a light touch and just are able to be around when great music happens, and then there are people who have to play every note on the track and sign their name in indelible ink. And then there are producers who have made the jump from being brilliant engineers. That's not me at all, but that's valid, too.
The producers I initially knew and looked up to were Andrew Oldham, who is absolutely a vibe guy, and Todd Rundgren, who is a brilliant guy who did everything - -the first person I knew personally who could write, play, produce, engineer and handle a self-contained band. I hung around these guys as much as I could when I was a young man because as far as I was concerned, they had done it.
Because I can play pretty much every instrument and write a good song there are projects I do where I'm very involved in the actual creation of the music. I definitely enjoy that, but it's very hard work, like on my Ellis Hooks records or my Little Milton record. With Honeycomb it was much more of a challenge because I had the luxury of not being directly responsible for the creation of the songs, and I barely played on the record, just a little harmonica and acoustic guitar overdubbing. I wanted a situation for Charles where the studio would either enhance the music or disappear completely, where I could create a comfort zone for him and the musicians to do these songs justice. Because as soon as I heard the rough demos of the songs, I knew it was going to be a very heavy record about an emotional turning point of his life, the end of one marriage and the beginning of a new love affair and marriage. I don't think anybody's ever written such an honest account of a divorce and what comes after, but it's never a downer or depressing. I just wanted a record that could live up to the promise of the material, and I think we succeeded.
What makes Honeycomb different from Black's previous solo recordings?
Charles had written a bunch of songs that were brutally honest and direct, and he wanted to make sure that they weren't played like just another batch of songs. He wanted musicians who could really bring some of their own emotional weight to the sessions, and believe me there were enough divorces in that room to keep Marvin Mitchelson working for a lifetime. And the players didn't know exactly what to expect, although I sent them all copies of his last album, Show Me Your Tears, before the sessions and got reactions from the guys like "wow, this is pretty offbeat compared to what we're used to, but I like it, very creative." They all showed up with open minds and open hearts, and every one of them showed Charles amazing respect. Because they knew this wasn't a product of your Music Row mentality where every chord change is a button pusher and everything falls into a standard time signature, there were parts of the songs that had to be felt not read. It had been a long time since these guys played a session like that. We had magic in the studio for those four days; I listen to the record and still feel it.
What kind of pre-production did you and Black do?
First off, I had to put the band together. That was a joy: find your first-choice guys and they all said "yes" with the exception of Levon Helm, who had to put us off as he was resolving some health issues. But Levon came and made the follow-up record with us a couple of months later. I didn't have to twist anybody's arm. They were plenty thrilled to be a part of something well outside of the usual.
Charles called me a month later to do another session, which will be out sometime early next year, and it's a very different record from Honeycomb. We cut all of the tracks initially in 24 hours, and I thought that was going to be the album, but now we're going in again soon so maybe it'll be two discs, I don't know. But that's another album, another story.
Charles sent me demos, and they were rough. Some songs didn't have lyrics, some were just works in progress, but they were all brimming with intensity in a non-Pixies way. I heard "I Burn Today," and I kept telling Charles I thought it needed another section, a bridge in G, and he wasn't seeing it. So the day before we cut it, I sat with him and played him what I thought it should do, which was totally wrong but helped point him in the right direction to come up with what he did. I was happy that he was open enough to make the change, because it provides a lightness and relief to the song that is key to the hope that the song induces. We had no rehearsals. He walked into the studio on day one and everybody played their hearts out.
Some of the best songs on that album were the result of Charles being so psyched-up by the first couple days of recording that he wanted to finish "My Life Is In Storage" and "Honeycomb" so they could make the record. He played them for me a couple of different ways the morning of day three, and I let him know my preferences.
I was very intent on all the musicians putting their stamp on the arrangements, but particularly the guitarists. We had three of the greatest guitarists walking the face of the earth in Steve Cropper, Reggie Young and Buddy Miller, and I wasn't going to let them get off easy. Steve and Reggie had known each other since high school and never cut an album together. I knew that there was a mutual respect there that we needed to tap, and the lick-trading was the culmination of two lifetimes of incredible work.
How did you get to produce the four tracks for B.B. King?
I was at a CMJ party right after the Jeff Healey Band had recorded my song, "River of No Return," and it sold a couple million copies, so I was feeling pretty bold. I ran into Bob Grossweiner and Jim Cowan, who were affiliated with Sid Seidenberg, who at that time managed B.B. I don't know whether I suggested to them or they suggested to me getting the songs to B.B., but they did. Next thing I know, I get a call: "This is Sid Seidenberg from B.B. King's office, and we got your tape." I took a deep breath. "We like the songs a lot, but B.B. doesn't record songs that have already been made into records."
I responded that these were not records but demos I had made in my one bedroom Manhattan apartment. "Well, what would you think about producing B.B.?"
It was a little more complicated than that, and it didn't happen overnight, but essentially that's how it went down. I was a little intimidated, so I suggested that my buddy Vernon Reid of Living Colour produce with me, and Sid didn't know who he was but said he'd run it by the record company and see if that was acceptable. This was right in the middle of Living Colour fever, so that became a no-brainer.
Were you satisfied with the results?
The four songs we cut are fantastic and stand up to this day. B.B. hasn't cut anything since with that kind of fire. And energy. We had a great time and B.B. did as well. Originally we were to produce four tracks with the hopes of completing a record, and some people who were a little conservative, got a little frightened that B.B. was "rocking out," which was incredibly stupid, as this was in the wake of the U2 collaboration "When Love Comes To Town," which had been very successful for him. So of the four tracks we cut, only three have been released, and they've been scatterred on several different records as not to scare children or small dogs. "The Biggest Crime," which is the best of the four tracks, has yet to see the light of day. There were some other people whispering in B.B.'s ear at the time who put the kibosh on us finishing the album, which was a shame because every time these tracks turn up on a B.B. collection, the reviews all say "What a great and lively B.B. King track!" It would be wonderful to be able to produce an entire album by B.B., because he is one of our greatest talents, but his talent has been squandered on his most recent records.
Who do you want to produce in the future who you have not produced before?
Believe it or not, I'd love to produce Mick Jagger. He's one helluva songwriter and singer and hasn't lived up to his potential because he's always slumming with whoever is fashionable. But I don't know if he'd be willing to put up with a producer who wasn't a yes man. If he was, I could make a record with him that would not only be his best solo album, but could stand with his legacy from 20 and 30 years ago. Keith would thank me it would be so great.
From the same generation, I'd really enjoy producing Van Morrison, but he doesn't need the help, he does pretty well on his own, for the most part. But if he wanted me to do it, I’d drop everything but my pants. He's one of my favorite songwriters, and he let me record one of his unrecorded songs, "If You Rock Me," on my second Jon Tiven Group album.
Bob Dylan. What can you say, as Paul Simon calls him, "King of the Jews." He is, you know. If he listens to Honeycomb, maybe he'll give me a call. I could make his Black On Blonde. I think Bob would enjoy making a record with someone with my sense of humor because he's so funny. His film, “Masked And Anonymous,” is absolutely hilarious. P.F. Sloan and I watched that and howled.
Of course I'd jump at the chance to produce the Pixies, but that might be hard because the rest of the group night see me as being Frank's guy. I enjoy all of them as people and their musical personalities and could see presenting them in a way that exploits that a bit more, but all of this is a silly supposition because I'm Frank's guy.
Of course, there are a lot of young artists who aspire to make works of great intelligence and taste, and perhaps some of them may listen to Honeycomb and say, "Let's get that Tiven guy!" and I'm completely open to that. I like My Chemical Romance, greatly at the instigation of my 14- year-old daughter Lucy. They're really good songwriters and singers. They remind me of Queen, who are friends of mine.
I just like making records with people who can write, sing and play. I'm not stuck so much in one genre as I used to be. I used to be seen as the soul and blues guy, and now I'm more the guy who brings a soulfull sensibility to other genres. So far it's more welcome than trying to rock up a blues record. I'm making a record right now with Marty Brown, who has primarily been known as a traditional country artist, but the record we've made is closer to a Petty/Springsteen sensibility and it's very powerful. He's brilliant, and I'll work with anybody brilliant who isn't intent on driving me crazy.
How have the changes in the music industry during the past 10 years affected your work?
I've sort of a strange way of looking at the record industry because I don't feel that connected to it. I don't go round to the labels looking for work. I'm way under the radar, and they only notice me when my records are in their face enough to not ignore me. I'm optimistic that someone like myself, who doesn't actively seek to either follow or create trends but just create the music that I feel I can, can at least survive in an industry where niche music is respected. That's a good thing. The decline in sales is very unfortunate, but perhaps when the people who run these labels figure out that people really want to buy music of substance, they will call upon me more often. Andy Lack, do you hear me?
Why did you move to Nashville?
I'd been in New York for 27 years, and when I first started, I could go down to Bleecker Street and see Otis Blackwell perform or I could stumble upon Bob Dylan woodshedding his material, then hop over to the Bowery and see Television or the Ramones. Those were vital days. As I found fewer opportunities to experience these kinds of musical moments, my ties to New York became looser.
I remember when Ed Koch said that people making less than $50k a year shouldn't live in New York, the handwriting was on the wall. "What the fuck am I doing here?" How long ago was that? After three or four administrations in power intent on bringing money to New York at the cost of depleting the artistic community, I felt there was less and less to make me stay in New York. My last big artistic endeavor in New York was meeting Ellis Hooks, a great soul artist from Bayminett, Ala., who also thought New York was the place to make it. I couldn't get him a record deal until I left town. When we hooked one, it was with a New York label. So go figure.
I made several records in Nashville and always enjoyed myself there/here, so when 9/11 happened, I got the hint that we New Yorkers were all collateral damage. I started investigating other cities in a hurry. I called Marshall Crenshaw and Graham Parker and said, "How's the music scene in Woodstock?" and they said, "What music scene and the weather's shitty," so that was out. I called Dan Penn and said, "Are the Saudi's bombing any of your high rises yet?" and he said, "Not that I'm aware," so me and the family got out of Dodge in a hurry. It was one of the best things I've ever done.
Why are you affiliated with BMI and your wife Sally with ASCAP?
Sally and I write most of our songs together. If somebody from BMI or ASCAP makes a mistake, and you're both with the same company, how would you know? I've always seen that there were advantages to both companies, and this way we can keep them honest. I've tremendous relationships with people at ASCAP and BMI, and I get the best of both worlds this way.
As a songwriter, do custom your songs to an artist you pitch them to?
I pretty much write what I feel, period. I write the best and most original songs I can and then try to figure out who would sing them.
As a writer, producer and musician, which is your preference?
Writing is very natural to me as I can do it on a variety of instruments, including the typewriter. For some of my collaborators, I strictly write lyrics, which is a challenge. Some people I write with in the same room, we sit around and bang on guitars until we come up with something which sounds like music. And then there are artists who like me to send them a track and they lock themselves in a room with it until they turn it into a song. All of these scenarios are very fulfilling to me.
Producing is often an extension of the writing, so it's hard to differentiate. With Frank Black however, it is a far different experience. Lording over a Frank Black session is about the most wonderful experience a producer can have. It's like the instrument I play is my opinion, and I only have to toot every once in a while because the music answers the musical question "Is this great?" with a resounding "yes" so frequently.
Playing an instrument -- any instrument -- is a great way to express my feelings. I think all of these work together. I don't think I have to choose, because when the phone rings in the music business you can never tell which guy they're gonna need. It's heavy on my head, but I'll continue to wear three hats, thanks.
First concert attended
Tommy James & the Shondells, Sam the Sham, Royal Guardsman & Keith at the Oakdale Theatre in Wallinford, Conn., in 1966.
First concert worked
Big Star at Max's Kansas City in New York in 1974. I played guitar.
First industry job
Published New Haven Rock Press.
Career highlights
1970’s: playing on the Rolling Stones' "Jiving Sister Fanny" on Metamorphosis and Major Lance's single, "I Got a right to Cry" b/w "You Keep Me Coming to You";
1980’s: teaching John Belushi guitar and gigging with him, playing in the Jim Carroll Band, playing and writing with Don Covay;
1990’s: producing B.B. King, Don Covay, Wilson Pickett -- all singing songs I wrote or co-wrote,
writing gold songs for Huey Lewis & the News ("Don't Know What to Do For You"); a double platinum single for Jeff Healey Band ("River of No Return") and a triple platinum single for Ian Moss ("Mr. Rain"); and
2000’s: producing Frank Black, discovering and producing Ellis Hooks, producing Marty Brown.
Career disappointment
Bringing Arthur Alexander out of retirement and then getting the elbow from the record company.
Greatest challenge
Holding my temper when people insult me.
Best business decision
Not to sing or drive.
Best advice you received
The speed at which you go up is the speed at which you go down.
Best advice to offer
If you want to get rich quick, the music industry isn't the best way to that end.
Most memorable industry experience
Playing guitar onstage with Don Covay and Ron Wood at Woody's on the Beach, Miami Beach in 1989.
What friends would be surprised to learn about you
I don't drive.
Industry pet peeve
Tunnel vision.
Office paraphernalia
Guitar tuner.
If I wasn't doing this, I would be...
...rich but unhappy
Industry mentors
Jonny Podell, Dan Penn, Andrew Oldham, Steve Cropper.
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 22:39:00
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| I have the Headache EP on 10" vinyl, with At The End Of The World, Men In Black and Oddballs. And the 7" Headache single with the NY version, which is also on the limited edition TOTY EP. |
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ScottP
= Cult of Ray =
USA
618 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 22:52:43
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| Sweet, I have a headache from reading all of Tiven's posts. |
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fbc
-= Modulator =-
United Kingdom
4903 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 02:29:04
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| But it's not compulsory. You can choose not to read them. |
Edited by - fbc on 10/16/2005 02:29:27 |
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Stevio10
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1117 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 02:56:38
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Hey Jon, how did you set up your own fanzine? Just a little intrigued on how you did it, what was in it etc.
How did you find working for music magazines such as Rolling Stone and Melody Maker?
Cheers,
Stephen |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6213 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 03:28:38
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another lovely topic on the forum
this site is about Frank Black
this is General Frank Black Chat
not General Piss-off Jon Tiven Chat
we all know that some people on the forum and mr.Tiven
can't get along from day 2 (day 1 was a great day!)
we don't need another topic about that every single day
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God save the Noisies |
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Jontiven
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 05:25:00
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Dear Stevio10,
When I was 11 I wrote for a sf fanzine called Granfalloon and I thought gee, if science fiction fans can make their own fanzines then surely rock fans can too. I had not seen Crawdaddy or Who Put The Bomp although they may have been available then (1966). So I got some writers together, we did interviews and reviews, and the folks at my synagogue let me use their mimeograph machine to print it up. I distributed it myself store to store, and then started hearing from record companies and other magazines that I was their connection to the "youth market." I got all the free albums I could, and when the national magazines started printing my stuff the albums came in like crazy. Not much money, but what do you need money for when you've got the biggest record collection any teen could have?
When I wrote for the other mags, it was pretty easy, they left me alone and printed my reviews as written and I didn't have to go into an office or anything....a pretty good gig for a high school kid. I was on a vocational program at school where I'd only have to go to class until noon, then I'd zip down to Yale University where I had a part time job in their computer department helping them document their programs, but I had a lot of down time so I'd write reviews on my computer. I'd be able to edit them a la word processing (this was way before anyone called it that) which made life pretty grand. Rolling Stone, Melody Maker and the like were easy to deal with, I'd send them a review, they'd send me a check, and I'd barely have to mess with any office politics.
Back in the day.
More love,
Jon Tiven
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Sam
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
514 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 06:26:58
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Hey Jon,
Many thanks for all your interesting posts over the last while, always a pleasure to get some kind of idea of how the recording of such a cool album gets put together.
Regarding the TOTY era songs, of which oddballs is one of my all time FB favourites. (i think the sound on this track is just so good.
Can you please answer me a couple of things if you can,
Did Lyle Workman do the guitar on Oddballs?
And also i know you were producing some Frank stuff around the cult of ray, were you ivolved in the recording of the songs that came out of that period like, village of the sun / can i get a witness? can you give any info on the recording of these tracks? As i love them and would kill\ to get a guitar sound like them.
Thanks man
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Jontiven
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 08:15:01
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Dear Sam,
You're welcome man.
Are you my dog? My dog's name is Sam, but I didn't think he knew how to use the computer.
It is indeed Lyle on "Oddballs," along with FB, NV, and EDF (on all the tracks we did). The tracks I did were "Hate Me," "At The End of the World," "Oddballs," "Men In Black," and "Headache (NY version)."
That's it, anything else from that period did not involve me. It was a two day in the studio affair including mixing, as I recall.
By the way, Lyle is now playing with Sting and has scored several films including "40 Year Old Virgin," if you are interested.
And to you and all the nice people who posted on this thread---and you know who you are---keep those cards and letters coming in.
love,
Jon |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 09:42:15
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I'm sorry, but if we can't act like grown ups then our mommies and daddies shouldn't allow us to use their internet. Take my simple one question quiz to see if you're ready for the internet:
1) If someone says/does something in a thread, like post their credits to date, that strikes you as bragging, gets under your skin, or otherwise pisses you off but in NO OTHER WAY pertains to you, do you:
a) Start a new thread to attack them.
b) Insult them and/or make fun of them.
c) Politely ignore it and/or the thread at large.
Now, let's see how the class did. If you answered a or b, you may be more interested in one of the many other forums catering to adolescent hijinks, because we like to have an adult community where people do, as Jon says, treat each other with respect.
In this specific case, I should also say that there was nothing wrong with Cheeseman posting a link to material that is 50, 98, or 100% bullshit. Perhaps posting it alone with no commentary, explanation, or other padding seems as though he is sharing this link as the definitive source of Tiven trivia or his own opinion, but in no way has he indicated that he agrees or for that matter disagrees. I appreciate that it's about you, Jon, and you don't like it (nor would I), and thought that your explanation of where this article came from was well worded and a good counterpoint to the article. No further action required.
The subsequent question of your TOTY involvement was just that, a question, and I believe if you look back you will see that it is legitimate enough even if others WERE vindictive (see my little test above). I apologize for the pettiness of these people on our forum. BUT with regards to respect, I must also ask you to give people respect and the benefit of the doubt, even those who might appear to be looking a gift horse in the mouth, for some reason.
In any case, we appreciate all the goodies to date, perhaps not so much the massive thread-killing posts here, but definitely your opinions, stories, and contributions, not to mention your involvement with Honeycomb, Oddballs, and Frank's career in general.
So, if we could all be adults, we'd get along much better. If we can't, then I guess I have to act like a moderator again and I don't like that any more than some of you do. Now for those of you who don't seem to like these threads, perhaps this would be a good time to peruse others. For the rest, I hope you can happily resume discussing 'Tiven stuff'.
 "Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 09:43:51
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I have always thought respect is something you can't take for granted and have to earn, there's a basic respect warranted by everyone but true respect is something earned not for status but for the actions of an individual and the way they respond to and interact with other individuals. When this forum has had those affiliated with frank come and grace us with a little insider info before they have been generally welcomed warmly and given respect not because of who they are but for the way they treat us. This forum is full of grown up people with differing lives and lifestyles who all meet up in this little virtual community for the love of franks works.
This needs adressing, this situation we have here. There seems to be a divide and for the large part those of us who don't appreciate mister tivens good cop bad cop routine try not to encroach on those threads dedicated to the Q&A's he offers up because we know there is a fair few of you who appreciate this. Me, I avoid them like the fucking plague because I don't need to get patronised in my free time thank you very much. But when other threads get interfered with and set right by mister tiven directing the course of conversation then it all gets a little hard to take.
As a grown woman, it sickens me that for this precious insider information we are expected to kiss ass and not question. That we're supposed to coo and crawl or mister tiven will take his ball away and for what? a few scraps that would come out in time anyway?
And as for the way the forumers are dividing over this. you know, a thread started where someone said he didn't like honeycomb, as he is allowed not to. You can't govern a mans tastes, but it seems you can dismiss them with claims of immaturity. And heaven forbid some of us pick up on this as being downright rude, which it is. Because those of you that will play dog to tivens pavlov accuse the rest of us of baiting this egomaniac. Rather than trying to point out that this is not the way you talk to adults, and like I pointed out earlier not the way to earn any respect. It is not a thing to demand, and nothing in mister tivens behaviour on this forum inspires me to give him any. So accuse us of what you like, and carry on with this yes sir no sir routine, but look critically at the behaviour on display and don't trivialise it.
I think this is a bit of an issue here, and I wish the forum heavy guns were around, well anytime to have a think about this and the way this is going.
It's all very good and well for mister tiven to call us people mean and surround himself by the little sycophants but the spread of this across the forum is starting to get a little tiresome, is there anyway to keep it contained because now it's getting stupid.
and..
quote:
all the nice people who posted on this thread
You've managed to annoy one of the nicest people on this forum, but you wouldn't know about that would you, I imagine it's all very simple in tiven-world feeders of ego - nice, starvers of ego - bad. I normally, as I mentioned, avoid all of these threads because you disturb me with your attitude and this level of negativity I don't really need in my free time. But you're upsetting people left right and centre and I don't think you even care.
Will you just try and think a little harder before you interact with people, do you even know how to play nice? |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 09:46:05
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| Dean typed over you there some, but still don't feel the need to edit or delete. |
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fbc
-= Modulator =-
United Kingdom
4903 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 10:25:22
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Respect, not enough respect. Who cares who threw the first punch. We just go round and round in circles. Match has been cancelled.
Please let the ones who want to talk music with Jon do just that. The rest of you, like any other member who may entice a little rage, please ignore him.
quote:
Because those of you that will play dog to tivens pavlov accuse the rest of us of baiting this egomaniac.
We don't accuse nothing. And please don't think we're "playing dog" or kissing his ass either. Surely you understand his relevance to this site. To be labeled like this is quite offensive. I, like the rest, am only interested in his facts related to Frank. I don't see why this is so wrong and seen as "the other side" to yours. It's not your side versus Jon's. It's you and yours who hold a grudge against JT (and i'm not saying if it's right or wrong, i really don't care) versus Jon. An uneven fight in my eyes, but he does give as much as he gets, doesn't he?
quote:
Now for those of you who don't seem to like these threads, perhaps this would be a good time to peruse others. For the rest, I hope you can happily resume discussing 'Tiven stuff'.
I think this should be the line drawn under the whole affair. It has gone on far too long.
Next! |
Edited by - fbc on 10/16/2005 10:34:31 |
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HeywoodJablome
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 10:34:19
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| My apologies Dean. Although kitten's got some good points I'm perfectly free to ignore whatever may draw out a negative response from myself. Don't want to add any more fuel to the fire. |
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fbc
-= Modulator =-
United Kingdom
4903 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 10:43:59
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Heywood, I think the fire's so big it feeds on itself.
I know when a moderator says to "drop/leave it alone from now on" should be the last word on a matter , but it is hard to do. What's been said does affect people and it does become personal.
All I can think of right now is how can we resolve this?
Is it better to take this opportunity to talk about it? |
Edited by - fbc on 10/16/2005 10:55:45 |
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fbc
-= Modulator =-
United Kingdom
4903 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 10:51:08
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Maybe we could start here: "little sycophants"
Tre, is this what you really think of us? |
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Jontiven
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 10:58:29
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If you want to know about me, ask me. I have deliberate tried to avoid fame and not have myths built up about my accomplishments. So when misinformation about myself is posted, I bristle. Believe what you want to believe about me, what I have done, and what kind of person I am. I will answer questions that I feel are legit, and ignore those I feel insulting. Fair?
And as far as "Bragging," this is a Jon Tiven Stuff thread. I thought it might be appropriate to list my recorded accomplishments to balance out the misinformation. Anyone who took the time to examine my discography can see whether it's accurate or not, and if you want to get offended and pick nits because I listed that I was a producer on the French TOTY, if you check the credits for several of my tribute cds there are coproducers along with me on some of them.
I attempted to be consistent. Should I NOT have listed it?
And Starmekitten, I have tiptoed around people who I could easily have been more dismissive of considering how offensive the posted material was. I never called anyone mean. I just thanked the folks who were nice. I'm trying to ignore the rest. If you want to be personally offended, it is your right.
But how would you like it if I knew your real name and posted an article written about you that was libelous and covered everything including your bowel movements and sexual exploits in a totally defamatory way?
Is your skin so thick that this would not offend you? In a thread purporting you to be the focus?
I don't seek fans, sycophants, or followers. I produce records and keep my head down. But when people write about me, it should be accurate. I'm perfectly capable and willing to supply more than enough information about myself to satisfy even the most devoted Frank Black fan, and I think I've demonstrated that.
Here's another short one from my files:
SONGS RECORDED BY
B.B. KING WILSON PICKETT ROBERT CRAY MAVIS STAPLES
KOKO TAYLOR JIM CARROLL BAND BEN E. KING HUEY LEWIS & THE NEWS
BUDDY GUY SHEMEKIA COPELAND DEBBIE DAVIES JOHNNY KEMP
SON SEALS TAB BENOIT KENNY NEAL ALEX CHILTON
JANITA CHUCK JACKSON JEFF LANG SCOTT HOLT
PAXTON RICK DERRINGER TINSLEY ELLIS RICK DERRINGER
IRMA THOMAS MICHELLE WILLSON IAN MOSS JIMMY WITHERSPOON
TROY TURNER RONNIE SPECTOR SIR MACK RICE BILLIE RAY MARTIN
SKULL DONNIE FRITTS THE YANKEES JAMES ARMSTRONG
JON TIVEN GROUP NATHAN & THE ZYDECO CHA-CHAS
BARRENCE WHITFIELD & THE SAVAGES FREDERICK KNIGHT
LEE KONITZ SYL JOHNSON OTIS CLAY
PRODUCER OF
ROBERT PLANT CHRISSIE HYNDE B.B. KING WILLIE NELSON
IGGY POP WILSON PICKETT DON COVAY DEBORAH HARRY
ROBERT CRAY MARK KNOPFLER JOHN PRINE KRIS KRISTOFFERSON
FRANK BLACK JOHNNY WINTER DAVID BOWIE DAVID SANBORN
NICK LOWE TONY JOE WHITE DAN PENN VERNON REID/COREY GLOVER
RON WOOD MICK TAYLOR PAUL RODGERS SIR MACK RICE
JON SPENCER TODD RUNDGREN BILLY SQUIER BOBBY WOMACK
BOBBY BARE TOM VERLAINE JOE ELY GRAHAM PARKER
PAXTON STEVE CROPPER ZUCCHERO DELBERT McCLINTON
KIM WILSON ANGELA STREHLI SMITHEREENS MARSHALL CRENSHAW
JOHNNY KEMP CHUCK JACKSON JERRY BUTLER FELIX CAVALIERE
JIM CARROLL POOKIE HUDSON DONNIE FRITTS CHRIS SPEDDING
WILLIE DEVILLE ROGER McGUINN NONA HENDRYX JOE LOUIS WALKER
EDDIE HINTON GARY “U.S” BONDS ALEX CHILTON LEE ROY PARNELL
ANN PEEBLES LEE KONITZ SYL JOHNSON OTIS CLAY
PAUL SHAFFER FREDERICK KNIGHT
AWARDS
TRIPLE W.C. HANDY AWARD WINNER (2000): IT’S HARDER NOW, WILSON PICKETT
(SOUL.BLUES ALBUM OF THE YEAR, COMEBACK OF THE YEAR, SOUL/BLUES PERFORMER)
GRAMMY NOMINATION, TRADITIONAL R&B ALBUM OF THE YEAR (2000) IT’S HARDER NOW,
WILSON PICKETT
GRAMMY AWARD, CONTEMPORARY BLUES ALBUMOF THE YEAR (2000), TAKE YOUR SHOES OFF,
ROBERT CRAY (SONGWRITER)
NAIRD ROCK ALBUM OF THE YEAR (1994) BRACE YOURSELF, TRIBUTE TO OTIS BLACKWELL
NAIRD R&B ALBUM OF THE YEAR (1993) PEOPLE GET READY: THE MUSIC OF CURTIS MAYFIELD
RIAA PLATINUM ALBUM (1989), SEE THE LIGHT, THE JEFF HEALEY BAND
RIAA GOLD ALBUM (1991), HARD AT PLAY, HUEY LEWIS & THE NEWS
DOUBLE PLATINUM ALBUM (1990, AUSTRALIA) AND ARIA AWARD FOR ALBUM OF THE YEAR,
MATCHBOOK, IAN MOSS
GOLD ALBUM (1992, AUSTRALIA), WORLDS AWAY, IAN MOSS
SONGS IN FILMS
SPIES LIKE US, (Warner Brothers, 1985)
ONE MORE SATURDAY NIGHT (Columbia, 1986)
END OF THE LINE (Orion, 1987)
MILES FROM HOME, (Cinecom, 1988)
MY MOM’S A WEREWOLF, (Indie, 1989)
ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE, (Miramax, 2002)
love,
Jon Tiven
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 11:16:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jontiven
...when misinformation about myself is posted, I bristle. Believe what you want to believe about me, what I have done, and what kind of person I am. I will answer questions that I feel are legit, and ignore those I feel insulting. Fair?
I don't blame you and that is all I ask regarding ignoring (and yes, I know that you do your share of ignoring which I appreciate).
quote:
Originally posted by Jontiven
... and if you want to get offended and pick nits because I listed that I was a producer on the French TOTY ...
Isn't this just continuing to fan the flames?
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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fbc
-= Modulator =-
United Kingdom
4903 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 11:51:39
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Is it okay if we take this to General Chat?
This thread started so positively but because of the JT Factor quickly descended into more 'madness'.
Tre is right, this is an issue that needs resolving in some way.
As a member of this fine forum, I feel i'm being judged by my posts to JT and am being thought of as someone on an imaginary opposite side to those who have been offended by some of his comments. These are people I respect and like in equal measures. This feeling sucks! |
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ScottP
= Cult of Ray =
USA
618 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 12:23:16
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Why does he keep pounding us with his cred? I think that is hilarious!
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 12:41:11
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| i LOVE Jon Tiven's presence here. His manner of posting has never, ever, not even once slightly offended me and I think it's funny how angry and hopelessly frustrated some people here get over him. It's more entertaining than another "Top 5 Frank Black songs" topic, that's fer sure! |
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Jontiven
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 13:42:33
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Thank you Jason. Really. I mean that very sincerely.
I informed you all earlier, I am a polarizing and controversial individual. It's a function of my personality. I'm not running for Justice of the Supreme Court here, I'm just a producer trying to do my job and protect my reputation. And I'm channelling Rodney Dangerfield at the same time.
Back when I lived in NYC, Rodney used to frequent my health club, we shared a jacuzzi bath on many occasions. He was usually very grouchy---although I never spoke to him he would grouse at the other individuals who would.
Respect is very important.
love,
Jon Tiven |
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Suicide_Samurai
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
431 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 14:10:44
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| Dear Rodney, When you shave me, shave my balls. |
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1965
= Cult of Ray =
Australia
799 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 19:18:14
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I don't really understand the anti-JT vibe either, I must have missed something. I have never met him [and assume 95% of people on here have not either] so my judgement of Jon is limited to reading his misc posts and insights on Honeycomb, which I find interesting, eg. Having FB personally play you MY LIFE IS IN STORAGE & HONEYCOMB three different ways would be a dream. You're a lucky guy. Thanks for your thoughts on the forum.
** I’m a snake oh yes I’m very smart ** |
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Jon Tiven stuff
