| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2005 : 11:06:09
|
As most of you may know, the four men suspected of the failed suicide bombings in London last week have been arrested. Obviously the authorities will be hoping to get information from them. But what if they don't talk voluntarily?
Is there a moral obligation to get as much information from suspects as is possible - so to better protect people. Or is the moral obligation to follow the letter of the law. (maybe this is all a bit 24)
Also what is torture? Is it just physical - electric shocks maybe; or is mental torture worse - sleep deprivation etc. Do you find one of these more acceptable than the other?
Lots of side issues I guess, so fire away.
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
Edited by - Llamadance on 07/29/2005 11:19:38 |
|
|
Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 11:20:52
|
| this is an interesting ethical delimina. on that can not be answered in generalities. I also don't know enough detail about the prisioners. you are right... this is a question for 24. :) |
 |
|
|
Stevio10
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1134 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 11:22:44
|
| Where's Keifer Sutherland when you need him! |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 11:27:04
|
Tell me where the bomb is 
Daisy Girl - If you don't want to answer in generalisations, try and describe a situation where you think torture would be justified.
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
|
|
|
Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 12:47:12
|
Imagine you genuinely believe that a suspect holds information essential to preventing a great calamity, such as deaths of millions, or of the entire human race, or complete annihilation of the Earth's ecosystem. If one believes that torture is never justified, then one will not torture in such cases. However, if one can accept torture in such extreme cases, then one opens the door to torture for lesser gains, such as saving a hundred people, or one person.
I wonder if there is any ethical or moral principle that would survive similar extreme application. Should one never lie, or steal, or murder? It seems to me that morally justified pragmatism trumps absolute principle every time.
Some may try to cynically uphold absolute principle in hopes of pragmatic moral gains. For example, a person or a society may espouse an absolute prohibition of torture simply because one effect might be to reduce the practice of torture, not because they necessarily believe principled prohibition is anything they can rationally defend as an absolute ethical truth. |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 15:23:41
|
So in that case, the question really becomes "under what conditions does torture become justified", which is similar to what I said to Daisy Girl, and similar to the original question.
I guess this is the problem with morality in some cases, in that the outcome depends on a subjective decision, and not the letter of the law. However most people would agree that in definite terms, the sacrifice of one person is worth the lives of a hundred. As you pointed out Erebus, does that open the door to a moral slippery slope, which could lead ultimately to a negative 'gain'.
I remember someone on the forum stating (forgive me for paraphrasing, whoever you are ) that you can't try to second guess all the impacts of your decisions as it can't be done, you just have to make the best decision you can at the time. I guess that kind of holds here really.
I was discussing this with my wife, and she felt quite strongly that mental torture was far more acceptable than physical torture. I can see why she thinks that, anybody else feel that way?
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
|
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 15:32:30
|
No, ask any woman who has been in a bad relationship and the head fuckery is the worst bit, mental torture the nice version my eye.
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else |
|
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 15:59:24
|
You know, mr Llama, on that battleground God website you posted a while back there was a morality play test, and it tested your moral framework:
How broad a range of moral principles do you invoke when making moral judgments?
So I did the test and Your Moral Parsimony Score is 96%
and I've been thinking about this a lot since I did the test, it's saying that my moral framework can be tested "to see whether this principle is applied simply and without modification or qualification in a number of different circumstances" and is found that I have a small number of rules and circumstances don't affect it so much. Why do I mention this? to explain this:
So I have been thinking about the torture and is it ok, and I'm going with no. I don't think it is. I think it's slippery that as soon as you make argument for a special case a thousand other special cases could pop up and seemingly rational argument for why each should occur, it's a cascade I think, as soon as some sort of bad behaviour becomes justifiable and acceptable it's plunging us into a sort of moral grey area, and not much better than those who would do us wrong.
Naive and idealistic maybe. Happens to be what I think.
Who's going to call me stupid first?
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 16:28:43
|
I'm not sure if I've done that test before or not (I suspect I have, just old and forgetful) but I've just done it now, and my score was 55%.
If I did do this before then I have no doubts that my parsimony was higher then than it is now. I used to be very black and white in my judgements, but they have greyed with time.
So, as I understand you miss kitten, you would not cancel 100 operations to save the lives of a 1000 people. Or is that different from the torture scenario?
I've got to say that before I had kids, the question about your children and who you would save would have been a no-brainer for me. But now I do have, and I can visualise it better, I don't think I could do it.
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
|
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 16:42:10
|
well how do you decide the life of some people(in the case of the unknowns) are worth more than the life others? How can that judgement be made? It's not just numbers you're playing with it's individual lives and I think unless you consider yourself fit to judge the merit of each in question and decide who deserves to live over who then it's a call you can't make. You cancel a hundred operations but could you as an individual cut the throat of a hundred people just knowing some anonymous thousand will live? I couldn't do it.
So no I wouldn't, because it is the same scenario, you automatically make your situation and justify it and sacrifice principles and people for the higher 'good', it's the same as the ends justifying the means, and where you make your stand on it.
I think (again from my idealistic and naive viewpoint) that as soon as you start making excuses to get around a moral framework the thing has collapsed already and become void.
Although, I understand when complex emotions like love come into it, all the rules go out the window.
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else |
|
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 16:53:21
|
You know what, I'm confused. I'm going to go away and think about this.
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else |
|
|
|
Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 18:19:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
Tell me where the bomb is
Daisy Girl - If you don't want to answer in generalisations, try and describe a situation where you think torture would be justified.
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
I used to think if someone molested childeren that it was warrented to be rough with him in terms of kicking him in the privates. Now, I really think it's better to take the high road.
To take an example from 24... Jack Bauer is going to go through the correct channels, but if national secruity is at risk and there is a huge and immediate threat of a nuclear warhead being launched... yeah... I would find a loophole like jack does and take the guy out back and rough him out. I wouldn't be happy about it... but in some rare instances the civil liberties of a terrorist do not out weigh the lives of millions.
it goes against my bones to say that ... but there are exceptions to every rule... in this case defending civil liberties.
|
|
|
|
kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 18:43:12
|
Great topic, Steve.
There is a move afoot in the US to outlaw solitary confinement as some consider it cruel and unusual punishment.
Isolating prisoners 24/7 leads to severe sensory deprivation which, in turn, leads to hallucinations and mental illness.
The US is the only First World nation that legally allows this.
My "Moral Parsimony Score" was a shocking 94%. I don't think of myself as moral. Hm.
Tre, I don't think you are naive and I do agree with you. I will say, however, that with the kid thing, it's not so much love as pure animalistic instinct.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
|
Edited by - kathryn on 07/29/2005 18:53:00 |
|
|
|
floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 18:54:15
|
| what about smaller-scale torture? like being a passenger in a car that is playing Wilco |
|
|
|
Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 19:11:33
|
| The way the terrorist suspects held in Guantanemo Bay and Afganistan amounts to a serious violation of human rights. They should'nt be treated like that, anyway. |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 01:03:12
|
quote:
You cancel a hundred operations but could you as an individual cut the throat of a hundred people just knowing some anonymous thousand will live? I couldn't do it.
In that test I made a distinction between the two, despite the outcome being the same. The difference being in my actions and the effect it would have on me. Not great, I know.
So, to apply this to the topic, could I order someone to torture, say, a terrorist to get information that would save hundreds of lives. Yes, probably. Could I do the torture myself? I really don't know. Probably not. If the lives of my family depended on it? Yes, no question.
quote:
There is a move afoot in the US to outlaw solitary confinement as some consider it cruel and unusual punishment.
So the USA considers (well, maybe) solitary confinement as mental torture, but not being on death row for 18 years. Maybe they should consider outlawing the death penalty first?
Nobody has really mentioned guilt yet (apart from maybe Carl). Torture of a suspect kind of presupposes guilt. Would that undermine an even more fundamental tenet of our society? Or is that an acceptable risk given the gains?
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
|
|
|
Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 05:55:05
|
quote:
Torture of a suspect kind of presupposes guilt.
This is the core of it for me. When you agree with these moral arithmetic musings like would you kill a hundred to save a thousand it has much bigger implications than just that one case, and if it is legalised you give gubbermint agencies free rein to torture any hundred people on the basis of saving any thousand people whether they be real or fabricated. Even illegally, torture is still widely practiced and sanctified and it would be a thousand times worse if we signed away our right to complain about it. Violence breeds nothing but more violence, okay I've heard people before say Well we live in a real world with airplanes and tall towers I say that's fine you want to continue the physical/mental harm route just don't say it's because you want peace because you don't. I don't judge anyone for making a pronouncement favouring torture in one of these "if this then that" games, all I can say is you won't catch me playing it.
--
Les cacahuetes c'est le mouvement perpétuel à la portée de l'homme . |
|
|
|
Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 07:15:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
No, ask anyone who has been in a bad relationship and the head fuckery is the worst bit, mental torture the nice version my eye.
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else
Don't believe the type!
|
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 07:46:18
|
no.
 Oh let it linger |
|
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 08:01:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
My "Moral Parsimony Score" was a shocking 94%. I don't think of myself as moral. Hm.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
It's not about how moral you are (thats a different test) it's about whether you blanket apply your moral principles with little allowance for circumstance, like the cutting a hundred throats and cancelling a hundred operations, the outcome is the same but the way it is arrived at is different.
I'm still thinking about this by the way.
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 11:01:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Newo
quote:
Torture of a suspect kind of presupposes guilt.
This is the core of it for me. When you agree with these moral arithmetic musings like would you kill a hundred to save a thousand it has much bigger implications than just that one case, and if it is legalised you give gubbermint agencies free rein to torture any hundred people on the basis of saving any thousand people whether they be real or fabricated. Even illegally, torture is still widely practiced and sanctified and it would be a thousand times worse if we signed away our right to complain about it. Violence breeds nothing but more violence, okay I've heard people before say Well we live in a real world with airplanes and tall towers I say that's fine you want to continue the physical/mental harm route just don't say it's because you want peace because you don't. I don't judge anyone for making a pronouncement favouring torture in one of these "if this then that" games, all I can say is you won't catch me playing it.
I don't think anyone would seriously consider legalising torture in a democracy (heh, maybe I'm wrong), because as you say it would be abused, but as a 'black art' to extract information for the good of the country it could have some uses. I agree that it may have bigger implications than just one case, but as in all things you have to make decisions based on the information you have at the time.
It's an extreme example, but if you knew for certain that torturing one person would provide information that would save the human race (whatever that is) I can't understand anyone not doing it. Maybe Judas had some foreknowledge ;)
As for the 'games', it's an interesting and useful way to work out how we feel about things. If you have an absolute, unshakeable opinion, then maybe it would serve no purpose, but few of us have that.
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
|
|
|
Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 14:29:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
I don't think anyone would seriously consider legalising torture in a democracy (heh, maybe I'm wrong)
They'll do it anyway. |
|
|
|
Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 19:45:13
|
after stepping away from this topic... i think it ties to this new theme I have in my head... i guess you can call it a fine tuning of my moral compass.
I think at their core... all people want is to be loved and understood. this means all the ugly things they have hiding in their minds and hearts so what I would start with is love and understanding of those individuals...so if we start loving each other for our core essances that all we want to be loved and understood ... in time, it will make the need for torture obsolete. |
|
|
|
kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 09:36:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
My "Moral Parsimony Score" was a shocking 94%. I don't think of myself as moral. Hm.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
It's not about how moral you are (thats a different test) it's about whether you blanket apply your moral principles with little allowance for circumstance, like the cutting a hundred throats and cancelling a hundred operations, the outcome is the same but the way it is arrived at is different.
I'm still thinking about this by the way.
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else
I have been thinking about it, too, this weekend. I have several questions, the first being:
Is it a bad thing to be morally rigid -- to apply the same principle across many situations? I am leaning to no.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
|
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 13:24:36
|
hmmm, I've been thinking about that (and my apparently fluid morality;) and I think we often make decisions based on the circumstances. eg It may be immoral to tell lies, but we all do it (white lies)- and the degree of lie we tell may be dependent on the person we tell it to, if we'll get caught, is it a half-truth etc
If we had been asked in the morality play quiz "is it right to tell lies", we'd probably have all said "depends".
This is just one example I guess, but I think we all display moral 'looseness' - it may depend on the issue though.
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
|
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 13:26:56
|
you calling me loose?
why I'll...
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 13:29:43
|
torture me?
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
|
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 13:51:36
|
no, I'll cancel a hundred torturings so you can have yours
If you invite people who all have the same blood type to a party, but you don't tell them, they'll talk about something else |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 14:08:58
|
It'd be immoral of me to refuse :(
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
|
|
|
|
VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2005 : 13:33:49
|
quote:
There is a move afoot in the US to outlaw solitary confinement as some consider it cruel and unusual punishment.
See, I've always thought that was kind of odd. Isn't the worst part of being in jail having to hang around with the other prisoners? I mean, there's no chance of anal rape in solitary confinement, right?
quote:
So the USA considers (well, maybe) solitary confinement as mental torture, but not being on death row for 18 years. Maybe they should consider outlawing the death penalty first?
I'm not opposed to the death penalty, but I think they should be really damned sure that the person deserves it before carrying out the sentence. If it can proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, I say execute them right away. I've never understood the whole Death Row thing.
quote:
I think at their core... all people want is to be loved and understood.
Maybe most people do, but I don't know about everybody. There are always exceptions.
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
|
|
|
HeywoodJablome
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2005 : 14:34:27
|
| Richard Simmons is the only human who deserves to be tortured. |
|
|
|
Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2005 : 14:46:19
|
I think Richard Simmons is cute and peppy...his shorts are a little short tho
"I ain't goin to be what I ain't" |
|
|
|
VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 19:36:37
|
Did you hear about when Richard Simmons slapped some guy at the airport?
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
|
|
|
HeywoodJablome
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:53:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
Did you hear about when Richard Simmons slapped some guy at the airport?
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied.
Um, I'm quite sure he gets a lot of shit for the persona he displays. I'd hate to be the guy who had to admit that he got bitch slapped by Richard! He's actually a funny guy though, I like how he's obsessed with Barbara Streisand and constantly talks about her even though she and her "organization" repeatedly ask him not mention anything Barbara related. |
|
|
|
broken part
- FB Fan -
226 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 22:48:47
|
fuck, yeah, torture is right.
I would dearly love to torture some ppl I know for no information what so ever.
As these stupid left-wing laws stand right now, I'll have to earn some money to pay others to do it secretly.
Fuckin' hippies. You can't even knee-cap someone anymore. |
|
|
|
HeywoodJablome
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 22:52:13
|
| Sure you can, just get Jeff Gilooly to do it for you. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Is torture ever justifiable?
