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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2005 : 09:13:11
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ok so i'm in the deli line and it is a long line and the people working seem to be moveing in slow motion but instead of getting ticked i kept my mood high and looked for the good in the moment and let things happen at there own pace. I had faith that everything would work out.
" I gave my ham to the Devil " |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 09:25:33
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That's commendable, Dan, and I say this without sarcasm, I say it in earnest. But don't tell Brian he's got a pulpit. Brian's the coolest catholic around, dude.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 09:32:01
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| i don't want to argue or offend i just want to be me. |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 10:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
Brian, if I may add, does the idea of man's imperfect nature etc. upset you? Is it something to rid or something to observe (as you write "it's part of our existence"). I am not phrasing this correctly. It's very humid here. Sorry. Perhaps you'll get what I'm asking. I get the sense that the Catholic Church, in particular, is intent on denying or eradicating this intergal part of being human.
No, the idea of man's imperfect nature doesn't upset me in the slightest. Life as i know it would be boring without sin. Is that sad? maybe, but its because my human brain and my DNA only know what they know. Do i wish that the world could be peaceful and happy and not let people be shitty to one another? Totally!
And the Church doesn't try and eradicate the idea of human sin, in my understanding of the question, and of the institution. We believe in forgiveness, and maybe the idea of confession/penance/reconciliation is what you are talking about (which is a whole other topic), but there is never a time when catholics (should) believe that we are terrible, bad people for sin. We all sin, but we are all forgiven. That's the long and short of it.
And Dan, if i misunterstood you, i apologize but your truncated original post seemed to be mocking to me. I was wrong, and thats cool. But i'm not using this thread as a pulpit, all i am doing is trying to discuss something that is important to me with others who have questions or who want to debate.
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 11:12:23
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Kathryn: Of the eastern religions/philosophies I’ve read a little (a very little) about the detachment from the physical and the trivial and the laid back approach seems to be a common theme, I think I mentioned it on here before (talking to apl way back when I think) about Taoism, I picked up the Tao of pooh and the Te of piglet from a charity shop when I was a teen (as good a place to start as any, although I have read a little since then but we’re going back to my teens and I can’t for the life of me find the box where all this stuff is, probably in my dads attic, doh!) and the one thing that stuck in my mind was the more you fuck with life the more life fucks with you, I’ve posted this picture before as well..
Of the vinegar taster. In the painting Confucius, Buddha, and Lao-tse are sat around a vat of vinegar and having themselves a taste, Confucius finds the vinegar sour because for him it was out of the natural harmonious order, for Buddha the vinegar is bitter because life is bitter and full of earthly attachments that the wheel of life is fucking with you and the vinegar is just another “trap”, for Lao-tse as long as he didn’t impose on the vinegar, it didn’t impose on him, harmony exists he thinks if you let it, he drinks and it is fine because he isn’t projecting or fixing he’s just doing.
Looking at what you’ve written, it seems to my untrained and ignorant eye as though it is like a religion, in that the earthly suffering, treat others well (do unto others…) the same sort of basic message sans any involvement from a God. Have I got this all wrong? And something you see always associated with Buddhism is nirvana, what is this? I’m asking you because I would rather hear it from you than read it in a book.
Which reminds me, thanks Kathryn for the book reference, and as a genuinely interested party, if anyone has anything they’d call essential reading throw it at me. I’m going book shopping tomorrow hehe.
Daisy. So your spiritual beliefs are a very personal thing, you don’t feel you have to go to church to express or be part of a ‘church’ for your thoughts and feelings to be, er whats the word, validated? Do you think then, that it is unimportant to ascribe to one particular belief system laid down by a denomination, I mean, where does your faith come from? Where do you feel it and how does it play a role? Thinking of what I said before and what Brian bought up of all people of good will being saved, is this something you would agree with?
Simon, I don’t expect there’s anybody could answer all my crazy questions, but thanks for answering the ones you have done, I appreciate it, truly. I’d be more likely to question the faith of anyone who thought they had all the answers than one who would readily confess they hadn’t. This is why I’m suspicious of atheists as well. First off, no I wasn’t referring to faith as a crutch because that’s not a belief I have, it’s something I might have considered as a clever explanation for a short time as a teen but no, I don’t think a Christian life is by any means easy. I was commenting from the perspective that Darwin picked up on, the feelings of lack of purpose, the end and the doubt and I guess (from my perspective) loneliness of non belief, it always struck me that believers had this confidence and well being thing going on. Which I think would be nice. So, if you don’t mind me asking, is it an inner conviction or a product of learning or a combination of the two that has arrived you at your position?
I’m still waiting for someone to tell me where they feel it.
If that’s how it works.
Steve: I think I get where you are coming from, I know what you mean by couldn’t date a racist but I guess in my head the two are far from similar (I mean, I know you aren’t comparing the two in any real way but I’m working with this example). I think, despite what I think or believe there is a lot to learn from those with a different thought process from my own, whereas those with a definable prejudice can teach me nothing. There’s no movement or discussion with a racist or anyone else who holds an entirely negative viewpoint on something whereas as the fine people of this board are proving, there’s a lot to be learnt from those who have spirituality.
Tony:
quote:
it's frightening to me that, in this country, arguably, the main reason President Bush is in office is because he appeals (consciously) to the Christian right.
I guess this is again a personal evolution thingy almost because over here religion and politics do not, on any notable scale, mix. Doesn’t happen, wouldn’t happen.
I think also, it’s interesting how individual churches or groups can give off a different impression throughout the same denomination. I guess my memory of Church was, lets see if I can find a picture of my old catholic school and church …
ah this is the best I can do, not a good picture but it was a very unfriendly place. However as opposed to this one (St Phillips) St Catherine’s is the sort of family one I guess (I can’t make my scanner work to show you it), and it is much nicer, I remember thinking how could mine (St Phillips) be so frightening and my nan’s church (St Catherines) be so friendly. I think having contact with the two different churches of the same faith is what helped me in my questioning of if it was God or Catholicism I didn’t have faith in, because there is a difference to the way the specific religion can be perceived by looking at places of worship, general congregation and individuals. I’ve forgotten why I was talking about this now, I think it was for the non believers, how do you think of church, and has this affected your status of belief?
Brian, thanks for your posts, I hope you don’t think I’m being to quizzy (feel free to tell me to shut the fuck up any time) I’m sorry you got a hard time from others because of your faith, that truly sucks. I find it sad that people feel they have to sort of hide these things. So anyway, purgatory and limbo, I hadn’t actually heard of limbo I was assuming they were the same thing. I read up on it last night on interweb (which I hate doing, just because I am never sure of the plausibility of these websites) to try to get a slightly better understanding. I know of purgatory of old. Thank you again for your comments and answers.
Danjersey: I don’t know what I’m getting from you, is it bitterness? Either way it’s undirected and these little indeterminable quips aren’t constructive. I’m going through a time and a half in my head right now and I want the thoughts of others, from all sides of all the fences, I don’t want people clamming up because they think someone is taking the piss, whether it’s your intent or not. I for one am truly grateful for Brians thoughts (he’s already shown my knowledge up to be weak at best and forced me to start bugging people around me for information) I’m pretty sure you don’t intend to offend, and participation is appreciated (I need help! I do!) so please, be careful.
Owen, I take it you’re a non believer, how did you arrive at this conclusion please?
All, r.e. Sin: If you would be so kind, give me a personal definition of sin so I know what you are talking about, what does the word mean to you?
I thought (again correct me if I am wrong) that the idea of original sin stemmed from Adam and that original sin presents itself in the fact that we die, if there had been no sin man would be living in the garden of eden smelling the flowers and dancing about as naked as a newborn. And, that because we die and are mortal we have the capability and the propensity to sin, and the whole point was recognising what we have done and trying to amend it or cleanse it or whatever.
Also, little story for you all, the reason I started thinking like this (actually a couple of weeks I have had this all stewing in my head) was a friend of mine broke her hair straighteners and I went with her to buy a new pair. We waited for a while whilst the woman was fetching and wrapping them and my friend commented on my hair and eyes, she was against me cropping my hair before I did but now she approves, says it brings out my eyes, which fascinate her. She says that as an asian girl you know what you’re getting, dark hair dark eyes, always, but her dad often says he is fascinated with the hair and eyes of white people, he thinks its like god knows what colour to make them for everyone and it works harmoniously. My normal thought processes would have arrived me at a genetic tangent, but not this time, this time my first thoughts were related to god and that’s when I knew it was time to start questioning again.
I find these questioning times to be very hard, because I doubt myself and also it’s hard to get people to talk about them. I’ve been asking around of late and I seem to get the same answers from people I do believe in god but I dislike organised religion or I believe in some higher being but if there was a god then why all the suffering.. and I don’t find these answers to be entirely satisfactory, often because I don’t think people have really thought about the question before they’ve given me the standard response. Also, people tend to react weirdly when I try to talk about it, I remember having a conversation with someone once and he was very closed, thought that religion was stupid, believing in god was stupid and that there was no point questioning it, whereas I personally feel the moment you stop questioning you might as well curl up and die.
Llama, when you were worried for the safety of your wife and child during labour and you prayed to every god you could think of, that struck a chord with me as did the non believers raised as catholic calling themselves catholic. If people ask I tell them I’m not religious or atheist (simply because it’s easier) but I am aware that I was bought to this earth a catholic and that’s a part of me that will never go away and stays with me in various different ways. But, and I hate that I do this it’s like a fucking nervous tic, I have a lot of night terrors and I wake up in a panic, I wake up and fret about family members or friends or loved ones and I find myself internally trying to pray and reach out and I have to suppress is, so I get up and I pace and if I am really freaked give them a call. If something happens and I get scared I do it again, I reach. Do you think this is normal? I mean is it something that would truncate from my upbringing, that’s what I thought, but looking at your initial post there isn’t any defined religious imposition on your upbringing. Have you ever found yourself doing it at any other time? Does anyone know what the hell I am talking about? Hehehe.. sigh.
I would also echo this:
quote:
On the issue of speaking out about your faith, I would encourage anybody who has a religious faith to be proud of it, open about it, and open to discussion about it. People are different, and to paraphrase Mick Hucknall(sadly ) it's the differences that make life interesting. I haven't ever, and wouldn't, think less of someone who has a faith.
except without the Hucknall reference, I think it takes a fuck of a lot of courage to be true to yourself and I have profound respect for those who do so. So thanks guys.
(by the way Llama lad, I’ve been getting some unnerving results on those tests, I’m waiting until I get an average score on one of them then I can retire it… sick of the computer telling me I think weird hehehe)
((actually on one of those tests there were some interesting questions, I’ll pull them up in a minute))
OK I am done, and remember, I’m a student, recommended reading please.
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 11:14:06
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quote:
Obviously sin exists. People shouldn't do certain things (abuse of children immediately comes to mind).
But I take great offense at the idea of original sin. The widely held belief that in our deepest nature we are sin-filled is wrong and bad.
Re: guilt - I don't believe in guilt. You do what you do and if it violates your own sense of ethics, then you suffer the consequences of your actions and feel shitty. But I don't believe in guilt as a means of controlling societal behavior.
I guess I'm sort of the opposite in a way, because I believe in guilt, but not in sin. I certainly think there are Bad Things People Do, but I think they're bad for earthly reasons. Calling it "sin" elevates it to some kind of Grand Spiritual Concept, rather than just someone making a bad choice.
I don't always agree that the things the various religions consider sinful are necessarily bad. There's usually something in them, though. For instance, I don't think lust, greed, and envy are inherently bad, but they sometimes lead people to do bad things.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "guilt as a means of controlling societal behavior."
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 11:19:08
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Well, Vovat, what is the difference, the actual thing you would put your finger on, between sin and doing wrong, from early ages we know the difference from right and wrong and when a non religious person does wrong they are doing a bad thing, when a religious person does wrong they are sinning, what is it that seperates the two?
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 11:25:33
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Tre, darling, you are never too "quizzy" - i like debate/question&answer things
and for me, sin is any time i do something knowingly wrong/hurtful. sin can't be accidental, it has to be predetermined.
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 11:30:38
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ok tre, now i have a question for YOU:
for a long time i have always thought that Darwin-ism and God could co-exist if you thought of it like this: God is the creator, but he set it in motion in the way Darwin described.
now apparently this is a new debate springing up across the USA - teaching what i just described in a modified way called 'intelligent design' vs. teaching pure Darwinism.
now i am clearly all for teaching Darwinism b/c that is fact and we should teach facts, and i feel that all the people coming out for intelligent design are closeted assholes. all the debates i've seen on CNN or CSPAN involving these fucks proves that these are clearly the people on the other side of the scopes monkey trial who are now just trying to muscle God back into schools.
however, have you ever, as a science-y person, encountered an intelligent design theory that made sense to you? or is the topic just not discussed? or is it just widely dismissed?
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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tobafett
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1713 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 11:45:56
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good question BF...
I consider the two compatible...i don't agree with the "new" idea of intelligent design, though...that does seem to me that people are hedging their bets.
here's how i see the two coexisting (in short form).
life on earth starts. evolution begins. God steps in at a certain point (divine intervention, if you will) looks at the options here on earth and determines a biped would serve the purpose and is tapped to do the deed. humans are given accelerated intelligence, adaptability, etc...
could be a load of it but that's kinda how i see it.
The species could be very different on other planets...
no one has discussed that yet...and I think it belongs in a theological/scientific discussion--intelligence 'out there'. because, isn't God an alien? |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 12:19:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face
We all sin, but we are all forgiven.
-Brian
I heard this daily as a young girl, attending an all-girls Catholic school run by French nuns. I grappled with the idea beginning at age 6. No offense intended but I have long had a problem with this, to me ridiculous, idea that you can act badly but, hey, you can be forgiven. Perhaps I am oversimplifying.
re: intelligent design: others can speak on the matter in a far more intelligent and informed way than I can, but the idea strikes me as a shady pro-god/anti-science pseudo-argument -- as well as horribly political and plain old made up.
Brian, I agree that "sin can't be accidental, it has to be predetermined." Therefore, it's inappropriate to have an outside force (church, society, et al) deem sinful/bad one's independent actions.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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Edited by - kathryn on 06/26/2005 12:22:24 |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 12:41:22
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quote:
Well, Vovat, what is the difference, the actual thing you would put your finger on, between sin and doing wrong, from early ages we know the difference from right and wrong and when a non religious person does wrong they are doing a bad thing, when a religious person does wrong they are sinning, what is it that seperates the two?
Honestly, I guess it's mostly just the word "sin" I don't like, because it's so often used to condemn things I don't think ARE wrong. Technically speaking, there really isn't a difference, I suppose.
quote:
no one has discussed that yet...and I think it belongs in a theological/scientific discussion--intelligence 'out there'. because, isn't God an alien?
If God is truly the creator of the entire universe and all its inhabitants, I suppose He's both alien and non-alien, in a way.
"Intelligent design," at least in its present form, is totally unscientific. Sure, it's possible, but it isn't based on scientific observation and procedure, and hence has no place in science classes.
quote:
Brian, I agree that "sin can't be accidental, it has to be predetermined."
I think I'd pretty much agree as well. That pretty much destroys the notion of original sin, or sin through ignorance, though.
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 12:42:42
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Going back to my school days Brian, the two were never mixed. We were taught the scientific evolutionary theory in science class, and the creationist aspect of various religions in religious studies and the two were always kept seperate. Because after school I went on to do sciences in college and university religion played no further a part in my academic career. I don't think the curriculum has changed in any drastic way, so intelligent design is not something I have really any knowledge of, asides from what little I have read recently. I asked Darwin what it was on forum a while back and he described it as this:
quote:
Originally posted by Darwin an age ago The basic idea being that something so perfect and complex couldn't evolve by chance (ignoring that evolution isn't driven by chance) and thus there has to be an intelligent designer behind it all. It's Paley's old idea.
So I looked it up (as one does) and got this:
quote:
Living organisms are even more complicated than watches, "in a degree which exceeds all computation." How else to account for the often amazing adaptations of animals and plants? Only an intelligent Designer could have created them, just as only an intelligent watchmaker can make a watch:
The marks of design are too strong to be got over. Design must have had a designer. That designer must have been a person. That person is GOD.
Which is a common analogy I think, the watch thing anyway. Darwinism and creationism as I understand them could not co-exist as neither theory has any reliance or part on/of the other in the way intelligent design as I understand it, suggests. If Darwinism is true then how can the creation of organisms in God’s way of doing it be improved on? If Creationism is true why would there be an evolutionary need, would we be ‘created’ imperfect? Isn’t that going against scripture to suggest? If God created man in his own image (taking that literally here) then why would improvement and adaptation be required? I just don’t, for my part, see how the two are combinable as a compromise on this level of thinking seems to invalidate both theories.
I’m not saying that separately also either is strictly correct I view both as hypotheses but as the others have stated, it’s putting the god into science and confusing the two. There’s faults with both, who created the creator or was he always there? There’s a theory as to how life started, evolved and was selected but how did the composite parts, the chemicals the molecules, arrive into being?
There are no definite answers I think, I lend on the side of evolutionary theory because of my education but I don’t pretend it has all the answers.
So what exactly does intelligent design do? I would have thought that on a credibility level it would be more credible for the scientists to incorporate God into the parts there are no answers for (like the very start of all things) than for Religion to try to incorporate the science, especially from the creationist standpoint.
But then I can't pretend to understand it all either. I suck at answering questions.
Where’s Darwin, he’s better at this stuff than me, last time I got into this it involved technical drawings and wasn’t pretty. I’m good at bits of DNA. Any questions about bits of DNA?
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 12:44:55
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
Brian, I agree that "sin can't be accidental, it has to be predetermined." Therefore, it's inappropriate to have an outside force (church, society, et al) deem sinful/bad one's independent actions.
Well, i agree that certain things cannot be judged by an outside force, but there are some things that are just wrong: racism, rape, murder, etc. Can these too not be judged, or is there a line? Or are you a libertarian to the nth degree to the extent that we cannot judge, nor govern, anyone else's actions?
PS - re-reading that it sounded a bit rude, so i hope it didn't come off that way to you. I'm just curious as to how you think about this stuff.
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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Edited by - Broken Face on 06/26/2005 12:48:08 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 12:45:31
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quote:
think I'd pretty much agree as well. That pretty much destroys the notion of original sin, or sin through ignorance, though.
I don't think thats true, if I am right about original sin stemming from Adam then he sinned with knowledge that he was doing wrong and that resulted in the propensity towards sinning and the imperfection in all of us.
Help?
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 12:48:50
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Kathryn: Of the eastern religions/philosophies I’ve read a little (a very little) about the detachment from the physical and the trivial and the laid back approach seems to be a common theme
Yes but not in some big metaphysical way. Say you have a problem, an uncomfortable feeling. You wouldn't pray to god for deliverance of said feeling or for a sign of what to do about it. You'd merely observe your own psychological discomfort.
quote:
Looking at what you’ve written, it seems to my untrained and ignorant eye as though it is like a religion, in that the earthly suffering, treat others well (do unto others…) the same sort of basic message sans any involvement from a God. Have I got this all wrong?
I wouldn't call it a religion so much as a philosophy, but I suppose the argument could be made that those are one and the same. Not in my book, as I subconsciously tack on to "religion" the word "organized" and then negative associations get attached onto that.
quote:
And something you see always associated with Buddhism is nirvana, what is this?
Resisting the temptation to make a Nirvana joke...
I don't put any stock in the Buddhist idea of nirvana, because it has nothing to do with my here and now.
But to answer your question, nirvana is basically the ending of the reincarnation cycle (aka samsara, in which every life is rewarded or punished based on karma (actions) ). The word "nirvana" comes from the Sanskrit for "to extinguish."
Note that karma has nothing to do with god or luck, it's the corresponding action to your (good or bad) actions.
As far as books go, have you read Herman Hesse's Siddhartha? Also, FYI, most of the best and most accessible Tibetan Buddhism writings are by Snow Lion press.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 12:51:30
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perhaps at one point people believed that Adam and Eve actually happened, but at this point in theology most people see it as a story - an important story that has a lot of meaning soaked into it, but still a story. today's theology would argue that original sin is a concept that is still understood, but it was not caused by a talking snake and a naked dude.
original sin, as i understand it, is simply the idea that we are all flawed and that we all WILL sin.
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 12:56:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face
i agree that certain things cannot be judged by an outside force, but there are some things that are just wrong: racism, rape, murder, etc. Can these too not be judged, or is there a line? Or are you a libertarian to the nth degree to the extent that we cannot judge, nor govern, anyone else's actions?
PS - re-reading that it sounded a bit rude, so i hope it didn't come off that way to you. I'm just curious as to how you think about this stuff.
Not rude at all!
Again, I agree with you -- some things exist outside the gray moral area, they are unequivocally wrong. Some people's actions must be judged for the sake of everyone
else's safety.
However....
One rarely hears accusations of "sin" being applied to rape and murder; rather, the term is bandied about to label private actions that ordinary people take in the course of their day.
VoVat put it best when he said, "...it's mostly just the word "sin" I don't like, because it's so often used to condemn things I don't think ARE wrong."
When I was a crime reporter, I witnessed true sin and evil - people who murdered and raped and did unspeakable things to the helpless. But no one ever called that a sin. However, it was considered a sin that one judge was having an affair with his married secretary. That's what the press corps gossiped about during our long days at the courthouse, not the moral dimension of whether a sex-offender who two days after getting out raped and fatally shot a 15-year-old was evil. I hope this makes sense.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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Edited by - kathryn on 06/26/2005 12:58:00 |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:01:27
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yes it does make sense kathryn.
however, i would be hard pressed to say that i do not find fault in adultery. i do, but i doubt that has much to do with my faith, but just my understanding and respect for marriage. i can understand what you are saying though - people get caught up in the minutia and don't consider the big picture. the michael jackson case had a lot of this to me as well - people were mincing words about the small details, yet no fingers were being pointed at the REAL problem - the fucking parents who let their kids go to Jacko's house!
i know thats not even similar, but i'm having a hard time explaining it otherwise. i hope THIS makes sense too
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:07:30
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You can believe in god and evolution. Evolution addresses how species originate and change over time. It does not address how life began. So, you can believe god started the universe and life, and that evolution has shaped everything since then.
Paley orginated analogy that if you found a watch you would know that it would have to have been built by an "intelligent designer" because of its complexity. He was a contemporary to Darwin. The ID people are simply reviving that same argument. The analogy is also the inspiration behind Dawkin's book, "The Blind Watchmaker", which explains how random mutations and non-random natural selection can cause complex systems to evolve. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:10:27
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
Brian, I agree that "sin can't be accidental, it has to be predetermined." Therefore, it's inappropriate to have an outside force (church, society, et al) deem sinful/bad one's independent actions.
How about if the judge was a God who is by definition perfect and without sin? That's the concept of sin that I go with. In the original Greek of the Bible, the word 'sin' means 'to miss the mark'. This refers to the mark set by God, i.e. perfect. If you have ever done anything which is even marginally below perfect, then you are not perfect. That's what I would think of when I think of Original Sin (although I probably wouldn't call it that) - the fact that humans all have the potential to sin (which God does not have), and therefore are less than perfect and have 'missed the mark'.
Tre, in answer to your question: I guess it's a combination of learning and inner conviction. I have learnt all the things that I know regarding God and that, along with believing them (pretty important), leads to a sort of transaction where a) you realise your position; b) you acknowledge that God can forgive all these sins and ask him to; c) he does.
Then, yes, you do get some sort of inner peace. It won't mean an end to all your troubles or a constant state of calm (try swallowing the Little Book Of Calm for a temporary version of this), but it's there.
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I’m still waiting for someone to tell me where they feel it.
In your foot. Just kidding.
What's a computer?
Eat Y'self Fitter! |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:10:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face
yes it does make sense kathryn.
however, i would be hard pressed to say that i do not find fault in adultery. i do, but i doubt that has much to do with my faith, but just my understanding and respect for marriage. i can understand what you are saying though - people get caught up in the minutia and don't consider the big picture. the michael jackson case had a lot of this to me as well - people were mincing words about the small details, yet no fingers were being pointed at the REAL problem - the fucking parents who let their kids go to Jacko's house!
i know thats not even similar, but i'm having a hard time explaining it otherwise. i hope THIS makes sense too
It does.
Let's not even start with Michael Jackson!!?!
Adultery is another of those big concepts that is easy to judge. My best friend is having her fourth affair and in theory I think it's not a good thing but in reality I cannot begin to condemn her, knowing what I know about her marriage and husband. Many people understandably flip out on me when I admit that when I was single, I had a long-term affair with a married man. I don't feel guilty about it (he was the one with marital vows, it's not on my head) but I do feel partly responsible for his kids being fuck-ups (because of how bad the family atmosphere was when they were little). I certainly don't feel like
a god is going to punish me for my choice of who to have sex with.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:15:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
How about if the judge was a God who is by definition perfect and without sin? That's the concept of sin that I go with. In the original Greek of the Bible, the word 'sin' means 'to miss the mark'. This refers to the mark set by God, i.e. perfect. If you have ever done anything which is even marginally below perfect, then you are not perfect. That's what I would think of when I think of Original Sin (although I probably wouldn't call it that) - the fact that humans all have the potential to sin (which God does not have), and therefore are less than perfect and have 'missed the mark'.
I don't believe in such a being. I can't tell you why, Simon, but I never have.
darwin, thanks for that explanation of ED. I was hoping you'd pop in.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:20:24
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I told you darwin would be better at this, this "Intelligent Design" concept is so foreign to me because it just isn't taught here, it doesn't come accross in anything I have read or learned so I don't understand it at all. Like I said in the (stupid stupid stupid) "world is so big and I feel so small" thread, there's so much I just don't know, even within what I study we don't cover so much on darwinism and evolution etc, it's all tiny molecules and enzymes and DNA and biological systems. I don't read around so much as I should so when I answered your question those are knee jerk thoughts and I'm willing to have them opened up and examined because, well, thats healthy. Do your worst (be gentle!)
Adultery... heh, no idea, I'm not the type to condemn it but I won't pretend to get it, I'm a soppy like that though.
Thanks Simon, I don't plan on swallowing the little book of calm any time soon though, or indeed buying it.
And Kathryn, I have noted those booky things down and I think I'll take the afternoon off and have a wee look about town.
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:31:34
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
I told you darwin would be better at this, this "Intelligent Design" concept is so foreign to me because it just isn't taught here, it doesn't come accross in anything I have read or learned so I don't understand it at all.
[After writing this I recognized that this is taking the discussion away from the original discussion about religion. Sorry about that.]
Fortunately, it is not taught in science classes here either, but that may soon change in Kansas. There's not much to the idea of Intelligent Design. It's just examples that they bring up time and time again that they believe are examples of complexity that couldn't be caused by evolution, which they label as random. But, the concept that they don't get (or refuse to acknowledge) is that evolution is not random. It is not a random process that is producing complexity. The mutations that cause variation may be largely random (but we're learning more and more how they can less than random) but natural selection is not random. It's not random that individuals that are better suited for their current environments are more likely to survive and reproduce and thus more likely to pass copies of their genes into the next generation. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:35:02
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
How about if the judge was a God who is by definition perfect and without sin? That's the concept of sin that I go with. In the original Greek of the Bible, the word 'sin' means 'to miss the mark'. This refers to the mark set by God, i.e. perfect. If you have ever done anything which is even marginally below perfect, then you are not perfect. That's what I would think of when I think of Original Sin (although I probably wouldn't call it that) - the fact that humans all have the potential to sin (which God does not have), and therefore are less than perfect and have 'missed the mark'.
I don't believe in such a being. I can't tell you why, Simon, but I never have.
Fair enough, no problem - I guess the point I was trying to make is: you say that it's inappropriate to have an outside force such as church or society deem people's actions wrong. Why is this? Is it because these things are flawed themselves, and therefore have no right to condemn anything?
Whether you believe in a God of any sort or not, I'm curious to know whether you would consider that such a being has a right to judge?
And Tre, you disappoint me. A fairly standard Black Books reference there, don't tell me you didn't pick up on it?
What's a computer?
Eat Y'self Fitter! |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:35:30
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Cheesey, would you consider answering a deeply personal question? What makes you believe in god?
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:38:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
And Tre, you disappoint me. A fairly standard Black Books reference there, don't tell me you didn't pick up on it?
What's a computer?
Eat Y'self Fitter!
I'll be in the self pity thread should anyone need me.
(thats disgusting, and I want to marry Dylan Moran, whats up with that!)
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:40:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
Fair enough, no problem - I guess the point I was trying to make is: you say that it's inappropriate to have an outside force such as church or society deem people's actions wrong. Why is this?
Because most of the time it is hypocritical, deeply flawed institutions and people going around pointing fingers.
quote:
Whether you believe in a God of any sort or not, I'm curious to know whether you would consider that such a being has a right to judge?
Society should protect itself by literally judging criminals but most of the time people freak out over stuff they see from the outside looking in. Does that make sense?
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:41:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
How about if the judge was a God who is by definition perfect and without sin? That's the concept of sin that I go with.
So, no God would equal no sin?
That's how I feel. I think without a god we can have societal rules that we call morals. But, I don't think we would call breaking those rules a sin. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:43:26
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Adultery... heh, no idea, I'm not the type to condemn it but I won't pretend to get it, I'm a soppy like that though.
Most people have an idealized concept of marriage and feel uncomfortable, nay heartbroken, when they hear of adultery.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:46:39
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
Most people have an idealized concept of marriage and feel uncomfortable, nay heartbroken, when they hear of adultery.
Yup, thats me.
Is that a bad thing you think?
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:48:04
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It's not a bad thing but it's something that might evolve after one is married.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 13:55:24
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
Fair enough, no problem - I guess the point I was trying to make is: you say that it's inappropriate to have an outside force such as church or society deem people's actions wrong. Why is this?
Because most of the time it is hypocritical, deeply flawed institutions and people going around pointing fingers.
That's exactly my point - no one has sufficient moral high ground to condemn another person of anything (that's my take on it, at least). Hence my question: would someone with nothing wrong within them have a right to judge someone?
Darwin, I suppose by definition, no God = no sin. It's difficult for me to compute, because to my mind God is the standard-setter between right and wrong. Therefore I can't really answer your question satisfactorily as to whether I think people would do bad things if God doesn't exist, sorry!
Kathryn. I believe in God for several reasons. I was brought up taught that God exists, and I have never seen anything to disprove that. Everything I read in the Bible makes perfect sense to me, I've never found a contradiction there. Using a cliche, I look around me and I feel that there is a Creator. Finally, I have had personal experiences with God that go beyond explaining on an internet forum.
What's a computer?
Eat Y'self Fitter! |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 14:02:31
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Simon, thanks for answering. I know it's a private and important matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
I was brought up taught that God exists,
Me, too, very much so. But I never felt it to be true.
quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
and I have never seen anything to disprove that.
Me neither but I have not seen anything to prove it either.
quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
Everything I read in the Bible makes perfect sense to me,
It does to me only when I view it as an allegory or fiction. Gosh, Simon, I hope you don't think I am being disrespectful or glib. This is of great interest to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
Using a cliche, I look around me and I feel that there is a Creator. Finally, I have had personal experiences with God that go beyond explaining on an internet forum.
I don't think that's a cliche. I just don't feel that way however I think it's grand that you have had such experiences.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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Edited by - kathryn on 06/26/2005 14:03:21 |
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personal evolution
