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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2005 : 14:04:12
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Just a quick note on the 'sin' theme running through the thread. To me sin is inextricably linked with religion. If you take religion out of the equation, what it comes down to is morality. Christianity is fairly clear on what it describes as sins, however if you take religion out, then whether things are right or wrong, good or bad tend to be defined by the civilization people live in and the moral framework of that civilization.
Mmm, I don't think I'm explaining this well, as most civilizations are defined to some extent by religion. Think of it from an outsiders view looking in. You may see things that are repellent to you, abhorrent and yes, even sinful, but really what you see is entirely acceptable to the civilation you're viewing. Still not explaining it well.
I'd like to come back to what PixieSteve was saying and which BrokenFace slapped him down for. Steve was partly right, in that what he was criticising was the seemingly fluid views of the church to fit the world in which it exists. BrokenFace pointed out that all organisations make mistakes, but I think Steve's point was that if you take the Bible literally (as many do), then how can the church keep moving the goalposts and retain its integrity. It just looks like it's trying to keep itself in business. There are of course many conflicting interpretations of the bible, but if you follow an organised religion, surely you follow its dogma. In that context, you have to admire the Vatican for maintaining its stance on condoms. I think they realize that to change such a fundamental stance would be to undermine the religion.
I've not checked back too much here, so apologies if I've misrepresented anyone.
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No power in the 'verse can stop me
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 14:13:14
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Llama, when you were worried for the safety of your wife and child during labour and you prayed to every god you could think of, that struck a chord with me as did the non believers raised as catholic calling themselves catholic. If people ask I tell them I’m not religious or atheist (simply because it’s easier) but I am aware that I was bought to this earth a catholic and that’s a part of me that will never go away and stays with me in various different ways. But, and I hate that I do this it’s like a fucking nervous tic, I have a lot of night terrors and I wake up in a panic, I wake up and fret about family members or friends or loved ones and I find myself internally trying to pray and reach out and I have to suppress is, so I get up and I pace and if I am really freaked give them a call. If something happens and I get scared I do it again, I reach. Do you think this is normal? I mean is it something that would truncate from my upbringing, that’s what I thought, but looking at your initial post there isn’t any defined religious imposition on your upbringing. Have you ever found yourself doing it at any other time?
Starmekitten, I think it's something almost everyone does at some time, even dyed in the wool atheists. When you feel helpless, you've got no other recourse but to pray or wish fervently (or do nothing). Most people would rather do something, however fruitless it might be. The idea that there is a benevolent god who can intervene is attractive, so if we're stressed and helpless, we'll reach out to that regardless. Also, prayer, for all its religious connotations, has been shown to have a positive effect on intensive care patients. I'd happily indulge in hypocrisy if it gave the slightest chance of there being a better outcome for the health of my family.
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No power in the 'verse can stop me
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 14:17:18
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hey llama, glad you popped back in. i hope i didn't really 'slap' steve down, i was just trying to make a point that all organizations change and err.
i still maintain my original stance - every major nation on earth that has lasted more than 50 or so years has consistantly changed its stance on the same documents that control its laws (just look at the US Supreme Court - its job is to interpret the Constitution and it changes its interpretation all the time!). i think that certain people like the stability of having a church that never changes with the times, but the truth is that those churches/people/endevours die out quicker than those who adapt.
now, this does not mean that there should be no consistancy in a religion's dogma. however, we must realize that when the books in the Bible were written, they had certain slants in there that were used to appeal to a certain demographic (the best example of this is the series of letters St. Paul wrote to different nations - if you inspect them, they are each tailored, issue wise, to what was going on there at the time). so there is nothing wrong with keeping the heart of the idea strong, while changing its appearance.
i read abou some guy recently who was going around doing Christian talks about how "God is the best CEO someone could have" - now, the conventional term would be father, but he says that people now respond better to business terms than family terms, so he is adapting his speech to fit those people.
now, when people universally believed that losing sperm was something that was very harmful to your body, and should be avoided at all costs, along with the idea of sexual pleasure being a no-no, the idea of monogomous relationships and the sacrament of marriage were ammended with the idea of only having sex for procreative purposes. now most churches (including the Roman Catholic) have come out and said that sexual pleasure is great within the context of marriage. what makes them look worse: re-examining where the dogma came from (sanctity of marriage and monogomy) and restating their ideas, or by still believing that losing sperm was going to make you blind?
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 14:19:12
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quote:
Originally posted by tobafett
good question BF...
I consider the two compatible...i don't agree with the "new" idea of intelligent design, though...that does seem to me that people are hedging their bets.
here's how i see the two coexisting (in short form).
life on earth starts. evolution begins. God steps in at a certain point (divine intervention, if you will) looks at the options here on earth and determines a biped would serve the purpose and is tapped to do the deed. humans are given accelerated intelligence, adaptability, etc...
could be a load of it but that's kinda how i see it.
The species could be very different on other planets...
no one has discussed that yet...and I think it belongs in a theological/scientific discussion--intelligence 'out there'. because, isn't God an alien?
I'm guessing that it's not necessarily the fact that there could be a god (as defined as something who created/intervened to create life)that atheists have a problem with, but the organised religion idea that there is an afterlife, heaven and hell.
I don't think there should be much doubt that intelligent life exists on other planets in the universe. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 14:42:57
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Originally posted by Broken Face
now, this does not mean that there should be no consistancy in a religion's dogma. however, we must realize that when the books in the Bible were written, they had certain slants in there that were used to appeal to a certain demographic (the best example of this is the series of letters St. Paul wrote to different nations - if you inspect them, they are each tailored, issue wise, to what was going on there at the time). so there is nothing wrong with keeping the heart of the idea strong, while changing its appearance.
I think some of that is what makes people inherently distrust the church. That instead of giving clear and open statements, they are somehow 'dressed' to fit. Maybe it's my romatic idea of the church that it should be whiter than white rather than having the air of a salesman.
quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face
now, when people universally believed that losing sperm was something that was very harmful to your body, and should be avoided at all costs, along with the idea of sexual pleasure being a no-no, the idea of monogomous relationships and the sacrament of marriage were ammended with the idea of only having sex for procreative purposes. now most churches (including the Roman Catholic) have come out and said that sexual pleasure is great within the context of marriage. what makes them look worse: re-examining where the dogma came from (sanctity of marriage and monogomy) and restating their ideas, or by still believing that losing sperm was going to make you blind?
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
Your absolutely right, just like almost everyone here changes their life(style) to reflect current knowledge, then so should the church, as long as it fits within the framework of the initial beliefs.
What dogma of the church is currently threatened by lifestyle/scientific changes in the west? Is it a coincidence that the catholic church is looking more and more to Africa to broaden it's following? Do you think that the church does that because more people in Africa need 'saved' or because that's its best chance of enhancing its power base?
I'm sounding more cynical as this thread goes on :D
Oh, and sorry about the 'slapping' comment. It was my initial thought on your post, but it's probably a bit harsh :)
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No power in the 'verse can stop me
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 14:52:01
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peace Brian, no harm no foul. i was raised in a strict ICF and now at 31 i find it hard to address the topic with out it sounding a bit angry. i also feel handicapped as far as typeing goes so i make quick comments that are not in depth enough i guess. again sorry, i'll be in the what are you drinking thread.
it took a while to read more posts and i have'nt read all of them still. Starmekitten again i'm sorry i am as you can tell out of my league as far as posting anything of value, again blame the windows. sorry sorry sorry
ahhhh fucking guilt, my first love. |
Edited by - danjersey on 06/26/2005 15:04:31 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 15:08:16
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Danjersey, I'm sorry I didn't mean to come off as too harsh, I am interested in what you have to say I truly am, I just don't want people upset.
*cracks whip*
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 16:16:59
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Brian's the coolest catholic around, dude.
Cooler than McDave?
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If Darwinism is true then how can the creation of organisms in God’s way of doing it be improved on? If Creationism is true why would there be an evolutionary need, would we be ‘created’ imperfect? Isn’t that going against scripture to suggest? If God created man in his own image (taking that literally here) then why would improvement and adaptation be required?
I don't know. The Genesis account says that God originally tried to get Adam to choose a mate from among the animals, but none of them were suitable, so He made another person out of Adam's rib. A few centuries later, He decided to kill every living thing on Earth except the ones in this one boat. Taking these literally (which is what Creationists apparently want to do), it doesn't look like God gets everything right the first time.
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think I'd pretty much agree as well. That pretty much destroys the notion of original sin, or sin through ignorance, though.
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I don't think thats true, if I am right about original sin stemming from Adam then he sinned with knowledge that he was doing wrong and that resulted in the propensity towards sinning and the imperfection in all of us.
Yes, but not only does that mean all humans are being punished for what one guy did ages ago, but it also means people are essentially born "wrong," without having even done anything, or really knowing right from wrong. Can a baby actually sin?
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Originally posted by kathryn
Brian, I agree that "sin can't be accidental, it has to be predetermined." Therefore, it's inappropriate to have an outside force (church, society, et al) deem sinful/bad one's independent actions.
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How about if the judge was a God who is by definition perfect and without sin?
Personally, I don't particularly like the idea of a judge who is above the rules. Does being ultra-powerful and having created the Universe automatically give someone the authority to boss everyone else around? I mean, obviously God can do what He wants, by His very nature, but doesn't the Bible show Him constantly breaking His own rules?
My take on adultery is that it's immoral, but if you consider it a sin, it's a sin against your spouse, not against God or society.
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 16:19:53
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
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Brian's the coolest catholic around, dude.
Cooler than McDave?
Brian's the coolest catholic; McDave's the coolest Catholic.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 17:45:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
Darwin, I suppose by definition, no God = no sin. It's difficult for me to compute, because to my mind God is the standard-setter between right and wrong. Therefore I can't really answer your question satisfactorily as to whether I think people would do bad things if God doesn't exist, sorry!
Oh, I think people would do bad things whether there is a God or not. It's perhaps just a semantics question if it is only a sin if there is a God. it just prompted by Brian saying there are sins and me saying perhaps there are no sins if there is no God. Kind of a pointless point I suppose. |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 20:00:44
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*cracks whip*
give me that thing if you want to hurt someone.
i have faith that we are all here in good faith.
no more sig |
Edited by - danjersey on 06/26/2005 22:13:50 |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 20:58:10
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i have more to add. i feel as if i was raised a member of a team, Christian Warriors thats the name, alter boy and Marine and i would have gladly died for Heaven. I have now seen people die for Heaven and it has made me sick. this is just where i am at at the moment, just thoughts here.
peace.
again with the friggin sig |
Edited by - danjersey on 06/26/2005 20:59:35 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 07:57:42
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Hello people, going book shopping, I'm taking it only Kathryn has recommended reading?
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 10:03:43
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are you shopping for books on Faith? Zorasterism (persian religion) and the other could be the knights templar, this is how i'm looking at faith. i hope the people who need help are finding it.
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Edited by - danjersey on 06/27/2005 10:06:26 |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 10:23:42
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
because over here religion and politics do not, on any notable scale, mix. Doesn’t happen, wouldn’t happen.
Bush and the US was just one example. the entire history of our species is a long series of religious blood baths, England included..
it's happening all over the world.
barbershops are being bombed because some people consider removing facial hair to be against their religion..
these are the kinds of things that come out of religion that i would categorize as "bad" |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 10:27:28
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
Brian's the coolest catholic around, dude.
[/quote]
i agree. too bad more Catholics aren't as open-minded |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 11:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face
I don't think original sin needs to be understood as that we are inherently evil. original sin is a concept that is there more to protect than anything else i believe in the original scheme of things. original sin was a way to let people know that no one could be perfect, nor could they claim to be (ie. without sin) - it is a way to explain why we all, at times, do shitty things to ourselves and one another. i disagree with the idea that original sin damns us, it doesn't, but i do believe that there is no way a human being could live without sin - it is a part of our existance, and original sin is simply another way of stating that.
I´m partly in agreement with the protection thing, only it seemed to me more of a protection racket. Call me cynical but the concept of original sin to me was a method of keeping people in a state of emotional servitude. Think of the word ´occult´, what comes to mind, goatskin trousers perhaps, guys chanting in strange languages with gilded knives and maybe some industrial rock music? Basically we use it these days to express something that is not desirable, but centuries ago it just used to mean ´hidden´ with neither negative nor positive connotations. Churches started confessional booths as a means to cultivating a larger intelligence network, pushing in ways subtle and not so subtle that anything hidden was bad and certainly not to be kept from your local priest. I´ve noticed before when I talk about this sort of thing people immediately start to defend their belief in God, bringing up Edgar Cayce and such but I´d just like to say I´m not talking about gods or any kind of spiritual life (though I will add I feel spiritual and physical are the one thing), just religion. Also, living a couple months with Moslems I noticed their equivalent of the sin/redemption binary trap is honour/shame, so for all its usefulness to humans it´s like the difference between a Big Mac and a Whopper.
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After one look at this planet any visitor from outer space would say "I demand to see the manager." |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 12:14:42
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
because over here religion and politics do not, on any notable scale, mix. Doesn’t happen, wouldn’t happen.
Bush and the US was just one example. the entire history of our species is a long series of religious blood baths, England included..
it's happening all over the world.
barbershops are being bombed because some people consider removing facial hair to be against their religion..
these are the kinds of things that come out of religion that i would categorize as "bad"
Do you think that if there was no religion then people would find other causes to be extreme about? It already happens with animal welfare. Is the abortion extremism in the USA an entirely religious one?
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No power in the 'verse can stop me
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 12:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
Do you think that if there was no religion then people would find other causes to be extreme about? It already happens with animal welfare.
And with gun ownership rights here in the US.
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 15:27:46
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quote:
Do you think that if there was no religion then people would find other causes to be extreme about?
Definitely. On the other hand, none of the arguments against gay marriage seem to be based in anything BUT religion.
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 20:39:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
Do you think that if there was no religion then people would find other causes to be extreme about? It already happens with animal welfare. Is the abortion extremism in the USA an entirely religious one?
of course there would be conflicts, but why add more ridiculous ones when we already have enough to fight about? to me violence over religious differences is one of the stupidest things i can imagine (up there with racism)...
and yes, i would say that the abortion issue is firmly connected to religious beliefs |
Edited by - floop on 06/27/2005 20:42:00 |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 20:56:31
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| when a life ends do you wonder or are you calm with nature? |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 03:38:31
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
of course there would be conflicts, but why add more ridiculous ones when we already have enough to fight about? to me violence over religious differences is one of the stupidest things i can imagine (up there with racism)...
I sort of get the impression most so called religious conflicts are actually more politically motivated though, and that the easiest way to label them is with 'Religious differences'. I mean that on a grand scale, all small scale violence like this I have seen is plain old racism.
Correct me if I am wrong.
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
Edited by - starmekitten on 06/28/2005 03:40:35 |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 04:17:44
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quote:
Originally posted by danjersey
when a life ends do you wonder or are you calm with nature?
Both.
Starmekitten, what books did you buy? Did you spend the night poring over them?
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No power in the 'verse can stop me
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 05:10:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face
i hope i didn't really 'slap' steve down, i was just trying to make a point that all organizations change and err.
i'm recovering...
 Oh let it linger |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 08:48:47
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
I sort of get the impression most so called religious conflicts are actually more politically motivated though, and that the easiest way to label them is with 'Religious differences'. I mean that on a grand scale, all small scale violence like this I have seen is plain old racism.
Correct me if I am wrong.
i think you are right, but i think we're saying the same thing. often times religion is just another means of legitimizing fucked up actions. |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 08:55:37
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
quote:
Originally posted by Broken Face
i hope i didn't really 'slap' steve down, i was just trying to make a point that all organizations change and err.
i'm recovering...
call me Jack White, bitch
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 09:48:07
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Ok, don't laugh but I am approaching this time of questioning from the point of retard so I got these Oxford University Press short introduction books(buy two get third free at blackwells woo hoo):
and from oxfam book shop I picked up a battered old copy of the good book :) actually it's really sweet and has a little inscription on the inside that reads To Nelly Beuhaman Brown on her 9th Birthday From L.A.B. 18th April 1866
tomorrow I have to go get (because they didn't have it in the one book store I went to, but they do in the hallam blackwells)
Not exactly heavy reading but interesting enough, and as the name suggests, a nice little short introduction to..
Do you guys think it's a bit too bubblegum?
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 14:01:18
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bubblegum check:
So reading my bubblegum book on Christianity it talks about sin and says that in the new testament the good news is Jesus and his arrival on earth, that he came to save us, but if that was true this meant there was bad news in the sense that we needed to be saved. And this imperfection is sin. It then goes on to say St Augustine linked the problem of sin to the genesis Adam and Eve story. It says there’s two ways to interpret the story, one being that it’s metaphorical and a tale of the infancy of the human race (how much is metaphor by the way anyone, and how do you know if that’s the case, the interpretation is right? Or is it just a matter of common sense?) and the fruit represents loss of innocence and passage to adulthood. It says this isn’t how St Augustine thought though, he thought it was literal and that Adam was the biological father of the human race and his sin corrupted human kind forever and was transmitted through sex (I guess that’s where the sex is bad things come from huh? The sin-memory). This meant that if St Augustine was correct we’re all damaged goods and all we can do is repent. People like Thomas Aquinas and some branches of eastern Christianity didn’t buy that though and thought that we were still able to discern the existence of God and basic right from wrong. It says that most Christian branches accept though that we are all basically flawed and powerless to save ourselves If we are not to lead wretched lives on earth, and still more wretched lives in the hell that awaits us after death, we require the assistance of a heavenly saviour (It’s interesting though, but I don’t like the way they present it, seems, I dunno) so concludes this little bit on sin with saying hell is less discussed in modern Christianity but the sin emphasis remains in liturgy and hymns.
So what do you think? Should I toss this book away or does it seem like it might be a good introduction?
what I still don't really get (sorry guys) is the difference between doing wrong and sinning, aren't they fundamentally the same thing, one within religious guidelines under the name of Sin and one in personal guidelines under the category of Morality?
Am I way off base in my thinking?
(and repeating myself)
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 14:34:53
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
what I still don't really get (sorry guys) is the difference between doing wrong and sinning, aren't they fundamentally the same thing, one within religious guidelines under the name of Sin and one in personal guidelines under the category of Morality?
Am I way off base in my thinking?
I think you're right. It's just semantics that sin implies a rule from a higher spitual authority. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 15:22:17
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I would say the same thing, yeah. i.e. there's no way you could do something wrong without it being a sin, and there's no way you could sin without it being wrong.
The book sounds a little all over the place, I dunno. Obviously, I would suggest that as all the books are going to be talking about it anyway, you should read the Bible, but if not, 'Mere Christianity; by CS Lewis is a good start.
How's that for a slice of fried gold? |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 15:49:07
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| Well, I have to disagree. If you don't believe in God, then you can do something wrong (break a moral code) without commiting a sin. In essence, if don't believe in God or any higher moral authority then there are no sins. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 15:54:27
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Ah! I'm so confused, I thought I was agreeing with you.
I guess I'm not the person to ask about this sort of thing. I'm not really in a position to comment as to what constitutes 'bad' when you don't have the ultimate example of 'good' to compare it against.
How's that for a slice of fried gold? |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 20:57:10
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| i can't help but to ask starmekitten, what are you are looking for in these books? what do you need to believe or not believe? i'm curious, i look for your topics, they're all provocative but this topic has found me numb. i remember faith like an old lesson. |
Edited by - danjersey on 06/28/2005 21:01:34 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2005 : 01:01:34
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In my earlier post I just said this is a questioning time, I've been talking about this before I started the thread and it amazed me how much I'd forgotten and how much I didn't realise (c.f. the world is so big...) I'm not looking to believe anything, because I don't believe. I'm sort of looking to understand. The thread exists because it's not easy to talk to people about this sort of thing without their eyes glazing over. I just needed questions and discussions, make sense?
I need to reaffirm my position because I doubt my own judgement sometimes, I wanted to know how other people thought. I thought it might be interesting.
The books, because I've lost all perspective on this, I used to study Islam and I've forgotten, I used to go to catholic school and I've forgotten, I used to love the little tales of hinduism and I've forgotten. Forgotten so much! and so much I never understood in the first place.
I just want to understand things a little better. Seemed as good a place as any to start.
I want to live, breathe, I want to be part of the human race |
Edited by - starmekitten on 06/29/2005 01:42:59 |
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personal evolution
